Jinetes........ battle report (long post)

[katar]

just started my first ever campaign as the Spanish (using MTW VI and the latest MedMod).

unfortunately it`s a long post, but hopefully worth the read.

i had conquered all of Spain and was busy rebuilding my army when 2350 Italians landed on my doorstep. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

i had no castle there yet (it was in the process of being built), so my only choice was to withdraw my forces (2 archers and 2 spearmen) to a neighbouring province.

i had a look at what forces i could attack them with next turn.

apart from a few archers and spearmen i had the 18 units of jinetes, after i merged some of them i ended up with 15 full strenght units (most had valour of 1 or 2).

i decided to take all of them into my counterstrike against the Italians, without any other units to support them, i wanted all of my units to be as mobile as possible.

so i dropped them into the crucible and pressed return. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

well i ended up facing an army made up of italian infantry, and crossbows, lucky for me they had no cavalry with them.

the landscape was hilly with a level plain in the centre.
all the enemy units were making a beeline for the forests so i divid my units into 5 squadrons of 3 units each, sending one straight forward to keep the enemy interested while i sent two squadrons to the laft and the right flanks, keeping well out of xbow range and moved my units till they were at a higher level than the italians.

this manouvre spooked them and they started to withdraw from the trees and started to head further up the mountain to regain their height advantage (big mistake&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

in doing so they left themselves wide open (their backs to me) for me to attack them with the squadron that i had positioned directly in front of them.

disabling fire at will and putting them on engage i targeted the closest enemy infantry unit (their archers had started to withdraw first, and so were unable to fire at me).

in less than a minute that group of 60 italian infantry was whittled down to 32 and running for it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

meanwhile the squadrons that i had sent round the flanks of the enemy had closed the net, climbing high up the mountain they had kept the height advantage over the enemy, who were now totally mixed up (with some turning back the engage my frontal attack and the rest moving up the mountain to engage my flanking squadrons).

i had 3 flanking squadrons two lines deep, engage "on" and fire at will "off" (fire at will just wastes ammo), they wern`t too tired from the climb, but i still let them stand till the enemy came within range.

the first enemy units turned out to be yet more italian infantry, their crossbows were a bit behind but not worth worrying about due to my height advanatge.

have you ever seen 9 units of jinetes let loose all at once on a singel unit? it`s a sight to behold, one second the enemy was there and the next they were gone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

the same happened to the next three enemy units, but then along came six of them at the one time.

by this the squadron at the front had run out of javelins and i now had it engage a couple of infantry units from the side, i was surprised to see that they were holding their own in the fight, so i left them and returned to the main battle at the rear.

by now three of my units at the rear had also run out of javelis, so i put them in wedge formation and waited.

as the six infantry units got within range i targetted each one with a unit of jinetes (the ones that still had ammo), this didn`t wipe them out, but it killed several men from each unit.

when i thought they were close enough i charged the three wedges on jinetes into the front of the oncoming infantry (not something i would ever do on level ground, but going downhill, no problem), they made a very large hole in the enemy formation, enemy soldiers reeling back under the pressure, i ran the mouse over the enemy units, they were all loosing badly, so to keep the pressure on i had the remaining units come down the hill a bit and charge them again from the rear, well that did it, they droke and tried to run, but i had them surrounded and got them all.

as i was totally engrossed in this battle i didn`t notice another five units of infantry slipping through the trees until they hit my units just as they turned to start back up the hill.

lucky for me thet the jinetes held (several had picked up 3 and 4 valour during the first battle), i turned thm round as best i could, put all 7 ( 2 units had been ground down to 16 or so men each, so i withdrew them from battle) in wedge formating and charged, this managed to put the enemy on hold (i still had the height advantage working for me).

as i said earlier i had divided my units into 5 squadrons of three units each, but so far only four have actually been engaged in battle, i had kept one squadron well off to my right flank (these guys hadn`t fired a shot and were still fresh, this was the moment i unleashed them upon the enemy, in wedge formation they charged froward (they were at the same height as the attacking units) and hit them hard in the enemies right flank, capturing their general in the process, the italians broke and ran for it, this time i let them run as most of my units were at half strength and knackered.

that left the enemy crosbows, which had been slowly cutting into my units as the sniped at me from the lower treeline.

with my fresh squadron now on loose formation i faced the enemy crossbows and had them stand there until i could bring other forces to bear on them.

the squadron that had led the first attack on the enemy was still there, having defeated their opponents them were just standing about relaxing (a bad bit of micromanagement on my part, but that`s the way it goes sometimes), so i had them form up in two lines and advance into the woods towards the rear of the crossbows.

at this moment several more fresh enemy units started to arrive upon the field, luckily it would take them a while to reach the frontline.

the enemy crossbows were merrily shooting at my stationary squadron on the hill when they noticed my other squadron coming from their rear, whereupon the immediately started to move out of the woods and up the hill.

i immediately put the squadron stationed on the hill into close formation and had both squadrons charge at the crossbows from both directions at once, none survived. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

i then regrouped all of my remaining units (most now at half strength) and headed along the other side of a ridgeline to meet the new enemy units.

these guys (four infantry units and two units of spearmen) were heading towards the site of the battle (my general was still there in plain sight, he was down to 6 men).

i put my remaining units in wedge formation and lined them up behind the ridge until the enemy was in the middle of my line, i dragged my units to the top of the ridge and charged (well it was more of a slow walk at this stage for most of them&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif into the enemy units, some were hit in the flank, some the rear and some head on.

they definately had the numbers on me, but they still broke and ran.

i`d never been so happy to see the back of the enemy in my life

i then got the wonderful message that the enemy were fleeing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

the end result was 203 dead on my side, 642 dead on theirs and 1412 captured.

these jinetes are very interesting units. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Jan. 11 2004,02:04)]these jinetes are very interesting units.
...they shure are, if you know how to use them. And you have, haven´t you? Thanks for an interesting report

[Basileus]

heh nice battle man, jinetes are great especialy to harass flank and chase routers..high valor jinetes can do quite good damage head on aswell

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]high valor jinetes can do quite good damage head on aswell

i found that out 12 years later when Alhomads ( spelling? ) invaded me as well. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

again i went with an all Jinete force (13 units) against 6 units of Gholam cav and 8 desert archers backed up with four units of spearmen and a camel unit (they had brought reserves as well).

it was a battle along the seashore, mostly flat, so i positioned as far forward as possible and went for a head on charge from the start (no skirmishing, just direct combat).

i wiped them off the face of the earth, killing 3 of their princes in the process, i lost 46 men to their force of over 1000.

i really do like these guys, i wonder how they will hold up later on (i`m playing early period) against more robust european units?

[Basileus]

anything heavy will be to tough so use them as flankers later on, you´ll have chivalric and lancers then to use http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Count Alfred von Schlieffen]

Alohamads. Omahalads. Halomoads. Lomohads. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[ichi]

Statistically, when you look at Jinettes they are fast but seem pretty weak: charge of 2, attack of 2, defense of 2, armor of 3, morale/honor of 2, only 4 ammo. This is lower than Byz Cav or Szeks, the same as Mounted Xbows except Xbows have 0 attack and 28 ammo. The javelins are very effective against armored units.

On top of that, they take a lot of micromanagement, but at high valor (V3+) I see them as very effective units. There has been a lot of discussion about whether they are good or bad, but I know this . . .

Every time I invade Spain, Jinettes give me a real challenge. When I play as Spain, I find myself building and using them a lot. Ieven like to take 1 unit with me into Spanish MP battles.

ichi

[fruitfly]

I love jinetes. Those and Steppe heavies are the two regional cavalry units I always try and get hold of as both are incredibly useful and add an extra dimension to the standard Catholic army.

The fact that the jinetes have armour-piercing javelins means they can still pack a punch in high where you come up against far more armoured units, but the later the game goes on, the more advisable it is to keep them out of H2H unless you're chasing routers or the jinetes are high valour and you're using them to attack the enemy rear.

Their speed is definitely useful for getting behind the enemy and inflicting morale penalties, and their lack of armour makes them good in the desert. All in all, they're an excellent, versatile choice for filling the light-cavalry slot in an army.

And as Basileus said, in later periods you'll have lancers to use as heavy cav (think a double-sized unit of late royal knights, only available in high if you tech up fast enough). I sometimes play as the Spanish/Aragonese solely to have access to them.

[Guthwyn]

Quote[/b] ]
Statistically, when you look at Jinettes they are fast but seem pretty weak: charge of 2, attack of 2, defense of 2, armor of 3, morale/honor of 2, only 4 ammo.



Yeah, when I saw the official stats for Jinettes, I was surprised that they were so unremarkable (I had expected them to be much higher). They are definately my favorite light cavalry. I love using them to harass, and at V2-3, they have always done well for me at H2H. After a couple of weapon and armor upgrades, I found them to be quite useful in fighting off the Golden Horde units. The javelins make short work of the heavy cavalry, they can ride down the infantry, and can intercept and disrupt the horse archers (they're great for a "pincers move" on the HAs).
I've also been able to charge much tougher cavalry with them, and they've been able to hold out longer than I thought (at least long enough to get heavier cavalry there to support them).

Guthwyn

[Obex]

Like it was mentioned before, jinetes (like horse archers) require quite a bit of micromanagemant to use their javilin efectively. this is a weakness that i have for sure. i know that all cav arch armies can be difficult to face (like the GH), but ive never mastered this skill. the short range on the javilins makes jinetes even more difficult to use. thanks for your battle tactics.

[TheSilverKnight]

Quote[/b] (Count Alfred von Schlieffen @ Jan. 11 2004,11:27)]Alohamads. Omahalads. Halomoads. Lomohads. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy.gif
Homolads