Gun control

[chris]

Quote[/b] ]Gun control doesn't protect people it only keeps guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Criminals can get guns through illegal methods, and gun control will not stop them.




I didnt mean I was for gun control, that was my fualt. I meant i was agaisnt it, wich brings up another hot topic....Gun control, for or agaisnt?

Absolutly for. If I were to rob a back, only run out on the street where every adult is armed, would I rob it? Guns come with extreme responsibility, when used right, they protect and serve. When used wrongly, even in the heroes hands, thye are extremely dangerous. Also, if we fear the govenerments, becuase they have guns and we dont, is that really a free America? People are all ready depending ont he governemtn to feed them and clothe them, so heavely. Governemnt help us, but it is up to the individual, to earn his living, and protect and keep his family. SO what are you opions, while we are tlaking baout another hot topic, capital punishemnt.

[Papewaio]

P A P E ' S S O A P B O X

GUN DEBATES HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST ONE OF THE PRIMARY CAUSES OF FLAMES, INSULTS, FLAME WARS (WHERE INDIVIDUALS FIGHT ACROSS MULTIPLE NON-CONNECTED THREADS) AND OTHER PROBLEMS.

IF YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF DISCUSSION DEBATE THE IDEA NOT THE PERSON. USE REFERENCES WHEREVER POSSIBLE. THIS KIND OF DEBATE HAPPENS IN THE TAVERN, BUT THE USERS ARE MORE USED TO THE RULES

[Papewaio]

IMDHO

Guns make people more effective killers. They can kill more people at a longer range more readily then with a knife.


Imagine a society where a steak knife was the most deadly weapon. Then try robbing a bank that has a security screen. The worst you could do is engrave 'Pape the bank wobber was 'ere'.

Imagine a child turning up to school with a backpack full of steak knives after watching late night TV and getting the special free steak knives with the turbo fat blaster. Sure he might kill one or two of his fellow class mates but it would be very difficult of him to take out a dozen using a steak knife.

Imagine being mugged with a guy with a knife. If you do manage to hot foot it away you are unlikely to get it in the back if you run fast enough.

In short if guns where not deadly instruments you would hardly spend so much time equiping and training infantry with them. Rifles are used because they are deadly not because of the nice bang they make.

[JAY THE CONQUEROR]

Quote[/b] (chris @ Jan. 11 2004,09:09)]Also, if we fear the govenerments, becuase they have guns and we dont, is that really a free America?
it's not a free america and it hasnt been since the civil war. for Abraham Lincoln during the civil war declared, Da Na Na Naaaa....MARSHAL LAW which allows the US government do wat eva feels good to its ppl, that it why some actions conducted by the FBI CIA etc hav neva been questioned

[Guthwyn]

Washington, D.C. is a perfect example of the ineffectiveness of gun control legislation. While citizens are prohibited from owning any sort of firearm, the city has more than once led the nation in murders, and is consistantly high in violent crime.
However, Pape's logic is irrefutable: if guns were not available, they could not be used for crime. While I still think crime would occur if people only had rocks to bash people with, it wouldn't be quite as easy as it is with a gun.
The problem obeys the law of supply and demand. Gun manufacturers mass produce small, cheap guns good for nothing more than killing another human: supply. We live in a society that is economically imbalanced, where both criminals and victims seek the most effective weapon for their defence, and in which violence has become an increasingly acceptable solution: demand. Even if gun manufacturers were to completely stop manufacturing firearms, the demand would remain (as would a significant supply). The genie cannot be put back into the bottle.
I support the right of a citizen to buy a firearm through legal means. While I feel it is unlikely, I would like to see required safety training programs for anyone who did so. I would like to see waiting periods for shotguns and rifles, rather than just for handguns.

Guthwyn

[PowerProjection]

I agree with Guthwyn on this.

You can imagine a society with just steak knives all you want when you have your gun control but just think of all the guns out there already circulating in the United States. Please, if you really want to limit guns then you'd have to go out and obtain millions upon millions of weapons which I think is simply not possible. It's nice to think in the clouds but it is much harder to apply cloud thinking to reality.

[Icerian Rex]

While I can't say for positive, I'd be willing to bet that back fifty years ago far more people (per capita) owned guns than do today. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif But, you didn't hear about little Beaver marching into school and gunning people down, nor did you hear about gangland style shootings on a nightly basis (except for perhaps some of the northern cities such as Chicago and NY). Was this because of a lack of press? Maybe. But I think even more than this it was because people had more respect for guns, more respect for others, and a tighter social structure that didn't allow for the relative anonymity present today.

When my grand-dad was alive, he lived in the same house for nearly fifty years. He knew everyone in his neighborhood (and when someone new moved in, they would be barraged with baked goods and stuff like that). Today, I think many would be hard pressed to name everyone in their cul-de-sac, much less in their neighborhood, and they sure as heck wouldn't be busting out their oven mitts to send the people something to make them feel at home.

So, how does this relate to guns? It's simply to say that the issue is much larger than simply a piece of steel with some bullets, and is more a result of where our society is headed. Is it the media? Maybe, but probably not. Is it a loosening of morals? Probably in part, but why? Overall, it's too complex to completely relate to one source or another, but let's look at an example:

The average business person here in Atlanta probably spends forty five minutes in the morning getting ready for work, forty five minutes between doorstep and desk, spends eight (or nine or more) hours in the office, with an hour for lunch, and then another forty five minutes to get home, with say perhaps fifteen to sort through their bills. The last thing they want to do is see their neighbors. This, coupled with the fact that many see the American dream slipping away from them - taking each new raise only to work harder and harder and harder.... This is not to say that these people are out there shooting, but rather to say they simply don't care if others are. These people are more concerned about paying their Lexus payment than about being involved with those around them, although probably not initially by choice.

So. You wind up with a bunch of kids that are raised on MTV's the Real World, or the Tom Green Show, or Southpark. They're jaded, disillusioned, and they don't feel like there's much they can do about it. They go to school with thousands of other kids they don't know, looking forward to a job they probably won't like, and get to watch their parents fight about stuff they don't understand. It's not hard to see how some of the unfortunate things that have happened came about.

Having just had a baby, I worry about her future in such a world. Worry about her opportunities and about the problems she'll face and whether I'll be even able to relate to them. As far as guns go though, I'm basically for them, if only because they were written into the constitution, and that it would be a dangerous piece of fabric to go and start unraveling. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif

[Gregoshi]

Thanks for posting the be civil message Pape. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Its a fact that the states with a right to carry law have the lowest crime rates.You are less likely to use a gun if everyone else has one.The only people gun laws affect are law biding citizens.

[ichi]

I believe in gun control. People who can't control their guns are a big problem, 'cause they wind up shooting things they did not mean to shoot. People must control their guns.

ichi

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ Jan. 12 2004,01:41)]Its a fact that the states with a right to carry law have the lowest crime rates.You are less likely to use a gun if everyone else has one.The only people gun laws affect are law biding citizens.
that nearly made me snort my milk out my nose. you really believe that dont you? why dont you have a look at the stats for gun deaths in america, even in the lowest gun death states and compare it per capita with other countries such as aussie, new zealand, japan and britain. and then tell me that everyone having a gun makes the place safer.

[el_slapper]

there is no rule.

America, much guns, much guns deaths
Canada, even more guns, very few gun deaths
France, not much guns, gun deaths comparables to Canada.
Japan, as France, but even less guns & gun-related violence.

In other words, lack of gun control gives the potential for gun violence, but does not enact it. So, where it is strong(as at home), I'm for it.

America is a special case. I do not imagine setting up an efficient gun control in a country where x00,000,000s of guns are already flowing... especially a country that big.

Last point, that topic is really dangerous, & I thought it was totally banned from those boards. Seems I was wrong.

[Papewaio]

Compare gun deaths and numbers to location.

Canada and New Zealand are farming / hunter nations.

I assume most of the gun deaths would happen in urban environments. While country kids... true ones that live on farms and/or hunt have a respect for guns as tools and have used them as such.

[altti]

Have you people seen Moore's Bowling for Columbine? It has only a few good points but is by far the most entertaining document i've ever seen.

Here in Finland we have high murder rates and quite easy access to hunting rifles and shotguns, but murders are done here mainly with knives and axes and such; guess that makes it more personal or something. In my whole life there hasn't been anyone shot to death in 200mile radius of my location (excluding my sergeant who committed suicide with an assault rifle). High gun numbers doesn't equal high gun kills but it certainly helps in them.

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] (el_slapper @ Jan. 12 2004,04:27)]Last point, that topic is really dangerous, & I thought it was totally banned from those boards. Seems I was wrong.
You are absolutely right, it is dangerous.

When the topic was brought up in the Tavern in the last half of 2003, we decided to give it another chance. As long as the gun control topics don't get out of hand, they can stay. Turn it into a flame war and it gets shutdown pronto

My 2 cents: back in the early days of the US, many Americans lived off their guns and people had to know how to use them and use them safely. Today they are treated as toys. I think most gun owners have no idea of how to safely use one and have zero respect for what kind of harm they can cause. It is easy, just point and shoot. Right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[spud_gun]

Quote[/b] (altti @ Jan. 12 2004,14:36)]Have you people seen Moore's Bowling for Columbine? It has only a few good points but is by far the most entertaining document i've ever seen.
But Bowling for Colombine is flawed to the point of being a total lie see this page to find out how Moore played fast and loose with the truth. (http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html)

and is there any chance of people stopping holding Moore up as some great truthsayer with regards to BfC? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[chris]

Yes, always civil, we are debating gun control. Most poeple dont have a clear idea of what a debate is. Its a chance for boths ides of an opion to state there, well opions. Its not necesarily a chance to prove somehting. This can happen, but the goal is to voice it, not shove it down their throats.



Unfortuantly, stake knivesw ould be deadly weapons, and those who knew to use them well could make them extremely lethal. More unfortunate however, to those for gun control, is the fatc that, we cannot go back in time and prevent the discovery of gun poweder, nor the development of these things. EVeryone knows what a gun is, and most have a gerneral idea how to make one. Even highschool chemistry breifs us on the composition of gunpowerder. People know, and those who wantt hem, seek them out. We deal witht what we have. We have widespread guns, and widespread gun knowledge. What we don;t have, and this is the key to making a safer society. Teach people how to use them safer. Every person that I have learned about guns from, would take that gun from your hands the second you show any kind of stupid actions.


Lack of morality in America..........dooont get me started on that one. Most is a seperate issue, but as far as lack of orality and gun use, I wonder why? Games like Grand theft Auto are repulsive, and its no wonder why there are kids shootingkids in school. You want your children, the future of Amercia to no kill with their guns? Then teach them not ot. Myt kids will never own any form of grand theft auto, war games i find only acceptable if they portray it in a tactful manner, not glorifyig the killing aspect. I would say that the lack of the BIble is the basis of our morality rot, but no one would ifnd that rational.....lol, however it is interesting, whtehr you belive its religous statments or not, that it promotes generally accepted morality....