Medieval Tournment, reenactments

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I've just witnessed two awesome documentaries in the French TV channel ARTE.

One, a British production (BBC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif ) and another a French-German (France 2 - SDF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif ) co-production .

Unfortunatelly, my VCR broke last week and I was unable to record them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

The British documentary concerned the organization of the 1st EVER REAL JOUST since the 15th century Yes, real solid lances with no soft tips involved Not a mere reenactment

The program presented us with a perspective on medieval Chivalric Code and medieval society. They also showed some medieval weaponery and armour.

Four experienced horse riders were coached, during one month, on the techniques of Medieval Knights. They recieved tailored full Gothic Plate armours and trained exactly as Medieval Knights used to train. The joust was performed with 15th century joust's rules, near a very famous English castle (don't remember the name due to the French translation). Each rider faced the other three, in 3 runs. As in those days, the objective was to break the lance in the other riders shield, helm or chest. After that, the best 2 would face each other in another three runs.

Believe me, it was excellent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Unfortunatelly I was unable to read the title of this documentary. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Does anybody know it? Has anyone seen it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif



The other documentary was entitled something like From Finisterra and back again: A Medieval Knight's tale (but in German).

It was a documentary alternating between Historian's interviews, museum and castle visits and a cinematic reenactment of a Knight's voyage throughout Medieval Europe.

They presented a perspective on the building techniques of ancient castles, strongholds, churches and cathedrals. All this, explained by a group of French guys who are rebuilding an ancient castle using only Medieval techniques They expect to finish it in 2023 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

They also presented a perspective on the manufacturing and custom tailoring techniques of ancient armours and weapons. They showed an ENORMOUS collection of ancient Medieval armours and weapons. Literelly dozens and dozens http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

It was in Mariensburg castle. Yes, the former Teutonic Order's central office http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The castle also contains a GIGANTIC collection of books and writings concerning the Teutonic Order. Undreds and undreds of it

But the funniest part was that, along the program, they fictioned a tale of a knight (from Finisterra in Galicia, although they said he was Portuguese http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif ) riding and participating in some of the most important events of the middle Ages. First a tournment in France, in which he gained the possibility to serve under a Frech nobleman (a guy with only one eye - I might be wrong, but apears to be an Historical character). After that, he follows this nobleman in a Crusade of the Teutonic Order into Lithuania. Finally he returns to his master's land to becomes involved in the battle of Crecy, where is liege lord is killed by the famous Longbowmen.

IMHO, very well performed and historically accurate.

An awesome show http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

The reason for all this explanation is:

Some time ago, I believe in a thread called Who's the best archer, someone said that he had seen a test on the effectiveness of the Longbow, in a TV documentary. The results showed that the LB couldn't penetrate most period armours, even at 10 meters http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

In the documentary that I've seen, they made a test on the effects of the English Longbow. Well, the LB was shot at about 50 meters and no armour resisted it, at that range http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

How can today's reenactors or Historians, get all this messed up? Who is right about LB effectiveness?

What do you think? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Papewaio]

I don't think longbowmen got their fingers cut off for making the armour of knight rattle. Might as well throw snowballs if the arrows didn't do anything.

*donk, donk, donk* 'Blighty that is so annoying I'm going to cut the fingers off those archers'

[motorhead]

Another endless longbow thread? Do a search on this and i know there was a long and thorough discussion on this topic already. Or, is it that time of year where we drag out topics that have been beaten to death and see if we can squeeze a few more drops of blood out of their moldy corpses?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Most respectable members Papewaio-sama and Lord motorhead, the other debates were explicit.

I shouldn't really have asked the question:

Who is right about LB effectiveness?

Yes, I know the LB was a terrifying weapon in the hands of a properly trained yeoman.

My question really wasn't:

Is the LB effective?

It was:

How can Historians and reenactors make such a blunder out of these tests?

[Papewaio]

Quote[/b] ]How can Historians and reenactors make such a blunder out of these tests?

Well if you put them into life or death situations instead of safe demonstrations then I think the re-enactments would be a lot more accurate.

Add to it the amount of training that warriors of the past had compared to the majority of re-enactors whose level of training is probably much less then most military reservists.

A lot of history is taken as fact which is actually just observations of the guy with the loudest mouth. Add to it political and social reasons the truth becomes greyed out pretty quick.

[motorhead]

Even how much pull was put on a longbow is unknown. I saw a documentary that dug up what they believed to be longbowmen and they found curvature of the spine that they _speculate_ was due to the stress on their bodies after years of firing the longbow. A modern day archer can probably put quite a pull on a modern reconstruction, but then again, modern humans are considerably larger than medieval people. I say we pour money into making a time machine to go back and settle these burning questions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif . OUR reality is the game is made by English developers so the in-game effectiveness of the longbow is a done deal - they're replicating what they've been taught in their culture.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Add to it the amount of training that warriors of the past had compared to the majority of re-enactors whose level of training is probably much less then most military reservists.
Yeap. I agree. After all, today, no one fires a bow every day and every hour, opposite to what happened in those days.



Quote[/b] ]A lot of history is taken as fact which is actually just observations of the guy with the loudest mouth.
Very true.



Quote[/b] ]I say we pour money into making a time machine to go back and settle these burning questions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
HEHEHEHE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Who are you choosing as the scientists involved? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

They won't be happy with a deadline... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif



Quote[/b] ]OUR reality is the game is made by English developers so the in-game effectiveness of the longbow is a done deal - they're replicating what they've been taught in their culture.
Yes. Although I believe that the LB superiority in the game, is quite conservative for an English company. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[el_slapper]

side note : ARTE is french-german, not simply french. & is the lone interesting channel here in France(not counting sports).

Other than that, whatever the weapon, a man trained everyday from its youth wuold have slaughtered the strongest rambo of our times..... as long as the aforementioned Rambo does not have access to any gun

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 12 2004,11:42)]Unfortunatelly I was unable to read the title of this documentary. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Does anybody know it? Has anyone seen it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
enough about the longbows. can anyone answer this question - I'd love to see a real life joust

a http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif to whoever can help.

[motorhead]

desdichado: try here (http://www.faires.com/Australia.htm)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]side note : ARTE is french-german, not simply french. & is the lone interesting channel here in France(not counting sports).
Didn't know that. Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Well, this weekend, ARTE really must have pleased most people interested in the Medieval Period. Both programs were excellent. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif




Quote[/b] ]Other than that, whatever the weapon, a man trained everyday from its youth wuold have slaughtered the strongest rambo of our times.....
I don't know about that. Today's most highly trained soldiers have very effective techniques, learned and perfected to a very high level.

[el_slapper]

Commentaire[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 12 2004,13:51)]
Commentaire[/b] ]Other than that, whatever the weapon, a man trained everyday from its youth wuold have slaughtered the strongest rambo of our times.....
I don't know about that. Today's most highly trained soldiers have very effective techniques, learned and perfected to a very high level.
Of course. But they're not specifically trained towards bladed weapons to the level Medieval were(at least knights). And it would be pretention to imagine that their training methods were not refined, IMHO.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]desdichado: try here
I believe that in the documentary, the specialists contacted the TV guys, and jointly organized the joust. It wasn't an enthusiasts reenactment. All details and in-depth research were there.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Of course. But they're not specifically trained towards bladed weapons to the level Medieval were(at least knights). And it would be pretention to imagine that their training methods were not refined, IMHO.
Yes, but other influences are now available. In those days, for instance, martial arts weren't widespread. The mingling of fighting styles increases efficiency. In those days inovation was limited by cultural and geographical obstacles.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 12 2004,18:32)]Yes, but other influences are now available. In those days, for instance, martial arts weren't widespread. The mingling of fighting styles increases efficiency. In those days inovation was limited by cultural and geographical obstacles.
The problem with martial arts vs. a longsword is the range. The guy with the sword can hit things a lot further from his position then a man who has only his body. If the swordsman knows his trade (like medieval soldiers certainly did) then he won't allow his opponent to come close. The man without the sword has nothing to block or parry with (he can't use is arms for that) so he has to evade or he will get something cut. And to evade either he needs to be very good or the swordsman must be very bad.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The problem with martial arts vs. a longsword is the range. The guy with the sword can hit things a lot further from his position then a man who has only his body. If the swordsman knows his trade (like medieval soldiers certainly did) then he won't allow his opponent to come close. The man without the sword has nothing to block or parry with (he can't use is arms for that) so he has to evade or he will get something cut. And to evade either he needs to be very good or the swordsman must be very bad.
I was just stating an example. I wasn't trying to compare a swordsman with a naked hand martial artist. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

What I meant was, just like Martial Arts revolutionized the way westerners, today, percieve a fist fight, so the same can be told of other influences in other areas.

We can see that, learning alternative ways of doing things, always gets us inspired to inovate in a particular field of knowledge.

That wasn't possible in the Middle Ages, due to lack of contact between cultures... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif



BTW: New Smilies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-huh2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-balloon.gif