View Full Version : Gaining Valor
I often see it mentioned that your units should first gain valor. For Napthas and Archers they gain accuracy. For heavy cavalry, they become even more powerful.
The easiest way to do this is by butchering peasants by the hundreds while taking almost no losses. So far so good.
But how does one conciously go about doing that? Do you guys go out of your way to increase the valor of your units? If so: how? And which units do you think can use the valor boost most?
Papewaio
01-15-2004, 04:20
Far easier to increase the valour of the General.
However the way to increase valour of troops is to have 3 units at least of the ones you wish to valour up.
After the first battle compare the units. Rank them in valour order for instance
2, 1, 0
Use the 1 valour unit to reinforce the 2 valour unit.
Then use the 0 valour unit to reinforce the 1 valour unit.
Bring in more reinforcements of the same type and/or send back the 0 valour depleted unit back to base and have it rebuild. Rebuilding a unit is faster when using larger unit sizes.
Keep doing this a few times and you will have several units with valour 2 or 3 points higher then normal, several with valour 1 or 2 higher and a couple of depleted units.
For best results do it with a high valour general.
This works because every single soldier has there own valour while the unit valour is just an average of the all of them together. Larger units are more durable and although they may appear after replenishing to have gone down in valour the top troops will still be there but now surrounded by other potential top troops.
Pape is right, high valor gens at the head of an army raises the valor of all the units in the stack.
Make a big effort to build units in the province that gives them the valor bonus(e.g. Billmen in Mercia), and upgrade buildings that give valor bonus to the types of units you plan to build.
Its aq little cheesy, but charge missile units and chase routers, especially with cav. I have no idea how the program figures when someone deserves a valor award, but I get a lot of them just charging cav into missile troops and chasing routers. Now I rarely just let the enemy flee, I chase 'em hard.
If you do this and combine units following Pape's process it will make a big difference in the quality of your army.
ichi
PseRamesses
01-15-2004, 08:57
Quote[/b] (ichi @ Jan. 15 2004,01:31)]Its aq little cheesy, but charge missile units and chase routers, especially with cav. I have no idea how the program figures when someone deserves a valor award, but I get a lot of them just charging cav into missile troops and chasing routers. Now I rarely just let the enemy flee, I chase 'em hard.
One should relly think that attacking a stronger enemy-unit, holding a hill, bridge etc should gain valor not hacking down fleeing foes. What´s the valor in that?
I'm sure I read somewhere that valour was calculated by taking the unit number of kills divided by the number of men lost? I may be wrong.
Also does the actual valour rating of a general effect the valour of troops in the stack or is it just the command star rating. I know for every 2 stars the troops get 1 valour but are troops effected by any other factor of the general? Like Natural Leader v&v etc??
Cheers
Ringo
fruitfly
01-15-2004, 11:54
Generals V&Vs don't affect the valour of troops fighting under them, but can affect their morale (for better or worse).
Small units are the easiest to boost in valour because they need to kill fewer enemies to gain each point. Early in the game, I'll generally try to gain my generals knight/bodyguard unit one valour point in every battle he commands and after a while this turns him into a near-invincible soldier when fighting hand-to-hand.
AFAIK, each valour point a unit possesses itself increases attack, defence and morale. Each valour point a unit gains from the general only increases attack and defence.
Hashishin are the most important unit to valour-up in my opinion. Once they get to about 4 valour or higher they make awesome general killers.
Basileus
01-15-2004, 11:59
I like to add that units with high honor get their valour raised faster http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif
Quote[/b] (fruitfly @ Jan. 15 2004,10:54)]AFAIK, each valour point a unit possesses itself increases attack, defence and morale. Each valour point a unit gains from the general only increases attack and defence.
Sorry for being a forum noob, but AFAIK??? (can't keep up with all theses acronyms)
Thanks for the clarification BTW (hey getting more used to it)
Ringo
fruitfly
01-15-2004, 12:45
Quote[/b] (*Ringo* @ Jan. 15 2004,11:25)]
Quote[/b] (fruitfly @ Jan. 15 2004,10:54)]AFAIK, each valour point a unit possesses itself increases attack, defence and morale. Each valour point a unit gains from the general only increases attack and defence.
Sorry for being a forum noob, but AFAIK??? (can't keep up with all theses acronyms)
Thanks for the clarification BTW (hey getting more used to it)
Ringo
AFAIK = As far as I know.
Basileus - is that what the Honour step value column in the Clan Bezerk (sp?) unit stats tool means?
I always wondered why a unit of archers could kill so many men without getting an increase in overall valour compared to various infantry units.
Quote[/b] (*Ringo* @ Jan. 15 2004,05:25)]
Quote[/b] (fruitfly @ Jan. 15 2004,10:54)]AFAIK, each valour point a unit possesses itself increases attack, defence and morale. Each valour point a unit gains from the general only increases attack and defence.
Sorry for being a forum noob, but AFAIK??? (can't keep up with all theses acronyms)
Thanks for the clarification BTW (hey getting more used to it)
Ringo
Just like me when I first joined the forum.
If you want to know more, read through the New ? Please read this first sticky in this forum when you have time.
Valour is gained by killing enemy (or capturing router) of any kind, valour bonus from buildings and general.
Papewaio has a good way to preverse unit's valour and it's also a good way to maintain a fighting force. Instead of sending 2 less than half depleted units to retrain and completely removing them from fighting duty, merging 2 units then send the remainder for retraining is better. You can preserve one unit's valour and have it ready for battle while the other is away for retraining.
Basileus
01-15-2004, 16:46
fruitfly: honor step value is the number of how many kills a unit must make to level up in valor..though its not the honor of a unit, to see the amount of honor you have to find the honor level im not sure about clan berzerks tool though..you can check it with gnome editor or open manualy crusaderunitprod 11 with notepad.
I don't think the game just looks at the number of men killed in combat.
If that only was the thing needed to gain valour, all your troops ( taking it they all have step valour 1 ) should gain an equal valour to the number of enemies they killed.
However, I found that sometimes my unit spearmen who fought hard and well but only got like 40 kill gets a +1 valour, while my light cavalry who only killed fleeing enemies killed 100+ and they don't get a +1 valour.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the game has a complicated system of calculating this, where basicly the better your troops fight the more valour bonus they get.
Any feedback? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-happy2.gif
Court Jester
01-15-2004, 17:41
In STW, valour (called honour in STW I think) is also gained by attacking a unit that has a higher valour unit than your own. If your unit survives without routing, it would get a valour point or two. I'm not sure, but I suspect that the same may occasionally apply in MTW, as I've noticed a few suicide charges of, say, a militia sergeant unit against a Mongol Heavy Cav unit would result in a valour point gained, even though I lost more men than I ultimately killed of the MHC unit.
Also, if you kill or capture a high-ranking general or a king, I think the unit that does the killing or captures him, also gets a valour point or two from that.
I remember one battle in STW, where I was playing Oda, and in an early desperate battle, I had a small Ashigaru army attacked by rebel warrior monks ... As you would expect, the battle wasn't going well, and in desperation I charged one Ashigaru unit against the flank of an advancing warrior monk unit, primarily in an attempt to distract the WM unit. I fully expected the Ashigaru to wet themselves and run, but they didn't ... although I didn't kill many of the WMs, amazingly they fled after some losses, and I won that battle. The surviving Ashigaru unit gained three honour points, for a total of five Super Ashigaru.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
Is there anyway to exploit peasants rebellions in order to gain valor? How should it be done (if at all)
I forgat to add, I think that only the kills from real combat matter to the valour bonus
The ones you kill after capture sure won't count and I have doubts about the kills you get when chasing retreaters too
Basileus
01-15-2004, 19:44
kills give valor captures dont, by kills it counts each individual i think in the unit so you cant always see an increase in the entire units valor...all units dont have the same honor stepvalue and not the same honor so the gaining of valor depends on the unit and on the size of it aswell..its far more difficult for a unit whos 100 to gain valor then a 20 or 40 size unit.
Court Jester
01-15-2004, 19:45
Peasants? Who cares about valour, crush 'em
Although I doubt there is much valour to be gained in crushing those bloody peasants. Unless you try beating them with as few as troops as possible? E.g., two royal knight units against 6 peasant units? Might get some valour that way.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
Quote[/b] (Kulgan @ Jan. 15 2004,19:28)]I forgat to add, I think that only the kills from real combat matter to the valour bonus. The ones you kill after capture sure won't count and I have doubts about the kills you get when chasing retreaters too.
IIRC killing (and thus capturing) of retreaters doesn't gain you any valour because any peasant can kill fleeing troops, independent of the quality of these troops. Light cavalry who's only task was to pursue the routers won't gain valour that way.
Gregoshi
01-16-2004, 01:24
Pardon the interruption, but I'd just like to welcome ZZuluZ to the Org.
Welcome to the Org ZZuluZ. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Thanks. You may now continue your discussion. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif
Hi Gregoshi, thanks for the welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
Is there a definitive answer about the potential valor gained when killing routing units? I always thought it was the best way to accumulate valor and I based part of my strategy around it.
Quote[/b] ]kills give valor captures dont
I think, that's true. I wasn't so sure when I post. Too bad, since chasing router will result in a capture most of the time.
Recently, I look back into a bunch of my logfiles. There are a couple things that I want to post here and see how you think:
1) Valour gain may work similar to the way command star is gained. Higher, more difficult. In a few cases that I looked up, the most common numbers are (individual soldier, not a whole unit):
- V0 soldier kills 1-2 enemy gain 1 valour.
- V1 soldier kills 2-4 enemy gain 1 valour.
- V2 soldier kills 5-7 enemy gain 1 valour.
- V3-V4 soldier kills 8 or more gain 0 valour.
- V9 general kills 20+ enemy gain 0 valour.
Those are a few numbers that occured often. There are a few cases that the soldier gain 2-3 valour with only 1 or 2 kills. That leads to point #2
2) Valour gain may depend on enemy valour. Killing a higher valour soldier, like enemy general, will gain more valour than killing many zero valour enemy such as rebel peasant.
I will need to do some more test to see how it works.
Papewaio
01-16-2004, 04:45
It is something like a power sequence.
To go up say from rank 4 to 5 you need to kill 2^5 kills.
The value of the kill is equal to 2^valor of the killed person.
This is an approximatation.
I also think people running away are worth 1/2 value or 0.
bighairyman
01-16-2004, 05:09
Quote[/b] (pdoan8 @ Jan. 15 2004,21:09)]
Quote[/b] ]kills give valor captures dont
hm, i usually capture all the enemy troops in most battels, due to the fact i always have like 3 -4 light cavalry(i'm the mongols http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-beam.gif ), and my light cavalry do gain valour. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sick.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif .
does killing captured prisonors count to the kill? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif
Herodotus
01-16-2004, 06:14
A further step you can take is to standardise your armies, (one type of spearmen, infantry, hvy Cav etc.) thus being able always to merge your units when neccessary. It is impractical to impossible to achieve this throughout an empire (although it can be done alright with the Byz) so concentrate on individual armies.
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