Mtw VI

[Swoosh So]

Whats with the community these days, i see clan players rush through woods with cav v swords (even uphill in those woods) do they expect to win? then they leave the other 3 players in a bad situation and no apology? New players who work out v strong armies dont play and rush and if they win think they are better? lol it seems the old vets have it hard we win hundreds of games but when we lose one its a big deal even when chainrouted by a newb lol

Imo the only place strengths can be counted is in the tournaments cwb and cwc (my opinion or best to 5 1v1).

Lack of support for the map packs is dissapointing too.



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

[Sulla]

Its the main reason I actually only ally with people I know are team players..... I think times have changed Swoosh. I dont know the old times btw, but I know how it works today.
Trust me, youll get maximum enjoyment when you play with people you know.

regards Sulla

This doesnt mean you shouldnt play vs newer players. just ban the ones you dont like :D

[Alrowan]

i just play with whoever, i get frustrated at some newbs, but i was a newbie once, so i usually at least give them pointers, i find it goes down a lot better than making it like its the end of the world

[CBR]

Well its been like that since MTW came out(cant comment on STW/MI). There is a risk of crappy allies when you play with unknown people.

Mappack...give it some time for people do download it. From my experience a lot of players are not very curious and stick to what they know..doesnt matter if its mods or maps. But as usual it needs support from the clans to make a mappack something that will be used a lot...havent seen much of that so far from earlier mappacks.


CBR

[AMPage]

Hehe.. i had it easy when i was a newbie. I started playing online two weeks after stw came out so everyone was a newbie at that time. So at first i was winning only half the games i was playing, but that changed rather fast by playing almost 24/7 during the weekends.. doh STW was so addictive and total war just went down from there after the release of stw:mi.

It was funny i thought stw online had a campaign because we had to pick family names, so i thought there was a huge campaign going on. Boy was a shocked when i went online.

You won't see many players using new maps untill we are able to just transfer maps online. Even a radom map maker would be nice. Hopefully we'll get this with RTW, heh i said the same when mtw came out.

I have all these maps and only use a few of them. Only way to get to play the custom ones is with friends. I don't like waiting hrs for friends or players to show up and dl the maps, so i just play with the standard ones.

[Puzz3D]

My theory is that there is a larger ratio of inexperienced players to experienced players in mtw/vi than there was in stw. Also, the very existance of competions such as CWC and CWB means that clans have to beef up their numbers to field enough players to play in them, and they draw on that inexperienced pool of players.

[CBR]

AMP: yes being able to dl maps from host would be great.

Sometimes I just wonder what all the bitching and whining on Org was about..Sure people now have .Net but from a player perspective I dont see any difference. Its still same old lazy community. I guess people can change forums or clans but its just new bottles, same old wine.

Whether its maps, mods or different florin levels I nearly always find myself playing with same (too) small group. But I guess I just expected too much from people in general.

But we can always hope for CA to improve on things..chances might not be big but still better than hoping for people to change.


CBR

[Ja'chyra]

In regards to MP I'm a noob and I've found that there is a substantial proportion of people who have been playing longer who are just not interested as soon as they learn you are new. By far the fewer are the people who offer helpful advice or even talk to you during the games, and even I know that this is the key to success.

That's not to say that there aren't any helpful people out there, I personally found a few, but it is the reason why noobs tend to stick together. Many a time have I seen people on for the first time ask how to join a game only to be ignored until they have asked 2 or 3 times, I'll try to send them a pm, it only takes a minute. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

Just my opinion of course, feel free to indulge in a bit of noobaiting(new word?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Rob The Bastard]

noobaiting(new word?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif


... Then you could call experienced players that dislike/ignore new players: Master baiters... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif


On reflection that doesn't seem like such a good idea. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-happy2.gif

[Orda Khan]

Things are different in the foyer of MTW from that of STW/MI that's for sure. I remember receiving loads of help and advice with MI. RTK Paul posted along these lines some time ago, he will confirm what I say. I don't remember feeling unwelcome in a game, though I'm not sure many in MTW and/or VI would say the same. I see many No NOOBS games....How does this make a New Player feel?
Does this say "Welcome to the community"? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

I stayed with MI for 3 months after MTW came out, when I made the move the difference was evident at once. Noobs/New Players were far less respectful ..eg 99999k and a customary "Up yours" if you tried to suggest a florin level for balance. However, how can people simply demand respect? Respect is something that is earned and one can not achieve that by arrogance and I saw many behaving this way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif
Maybe it was this behaviour that sparked the contemptuous comments I saw from many 'noobs'. I don't consider myself a vet or a noob, I just play a PC game.
If noobs are not welcomed into games and helped, how will the community develop? Or shall we keep the same players and just play over and over?

My own thoughts about CWC or CWB? I'm not so sure this has helped the community....just my opinion

My own experience when I first started playing....

After playing for a while this guy PM'd me. We played many times, 1v1 or with him as my ally. He really did help me a lot ( I won't mention name as I know he wouldn't want that ) It was through this Vet that I met Dune and we later became Clan mates. To the Man of Many Guises and Incredible talent ( best player I've seen ..by far ) yet modest as could be....

Thank you.....( You know who you are http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif )

Ok that's all very well but it is true also that noobs these days may not take advice so readily. We could not all agree on a florin level so that didn't help. There was much ill feeling, which didn't help either.
I think we should all be thinking of a way to improve things.

The Map Packs......
Sadly, I've said this before, there is too much apathy here, people just can't be bothered. I know you love the custom maps Swoosh, I do too. I love to try and use the terrain. I have always found them more fun than the default maps, especially MTW maps, which is why I love making them. Will this Map pack take off? I hope so and I am currently working on another map ( just sent Tosa 3 new ones )Like you I am disappointed when I join a game on a custom map only to find we need to rehost on Flatyawnland 1 to fill it.

As for Steppe........no don't even go there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sick.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

.....Orda

[Swoosh So]

Well the reason that people host no noobs games is to play a compeditive good game of vi that will help you develop. thats fair enough i do it myself sometimes (you dont see manchester united playing gretna green in football games v often do you?) I have had my fill of trying to help noobs :D 50% dont listen and 40% think we lost because they rushed and i dident charge over the map to help immediatly 10% are ok but to be honest id rather play with friends or enemies :D. hehe 3 times to answer your question as a noob lol thats not bad considering most people chat in private chat and are busy discussing games or other things :).



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

[Orda Khan]

You can password a game......you achieve the same goal ( one which I fully understand ) but without the slur on new players

....Orda

[Swoosh So]

Its hardly a slur lol, unless peeps easily upset :)

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I remember my second game exactly 1 year ago vs a well know player from a well known clan.

It was a 1v1 on hillinland10. I got squashed. The missile duel was a joke, as of course, this player was much better than the AI I used to. From then, it was all downhill for me, but that's no surprise.

Ennemy loss were minimal; as I said I got squashed. No advice were given during the game. After the game, in foyer, the same player had a lot of fun telling how great he did to anyone passing by.

I still wonder how come I have not dropped the game back then and turn to another activity where I would not face such a childish behaviour.

Bad behaviour is certainly not a beginner monopoly.

As for beginner bragging when they win a game, well they feel good, all the better for them. In all case bragging is more the display of an ego problem than the display of skill.
The only behavior that annoy me is when you try to explain something and when the noob is not listening.

As games can be long to set up and play, I fully understand that a beginner spoiling a game by weakening one side is really unpleasant. That's what password are for.

Sometimes I play with people I know and try to get a serious game, and sometimes I go in the open grab the first game I see and hope for the best.

Louis,

[spacecadet]

I'll generally give advice to someone im playing with or against if they ask. If they genuinely dont look like they know what do then i'll give hints unprompted. Too many people think youre patronising them if you say something, so that these are the only times i'll bother to say anything useful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif

As to whether it is more difficult to get a really challenging game with random people and whether this is tougher than in MI id say maybe. This is however only due to the fact that a lot of times when i used to play there were less people playing and most of those were people who stuck it out despite declining numbers.

Still you can still sometimes jump into a game with people you dont know and have a good game. Also, sometimes its even better fun joining a game vs good players with people you dont know and win against the odds http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif

WolfSpace http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

[ichi]

There are experts, there are vets, there are those who aren't newbies any more but not quite yet vets, and there are newbies.

There are honorable players, quiet loners, jerks, punks, and the occasional total moron.

Your status in one category has very little to do with your standing in the other.

I can understand the frustration when you play with someone whose skill level is not up to the caliber of the other players. Playing against great players is the best way to improve your skill.

But I also think that some of the folks who go around saying No Noobs like to feel they are somehow better people. Skill is best observed in the absence of arrogance.

Helping those less skilled, who show appreciation for your help, is probably the best way to feel good about yourself. IMHO

ichi

[Sp00n]

I can say that like Amp I was lucky with newbdom as i started playing online about the same time as Amp, I struggled for a mnth or so before LinkOctavian asked me to join the Chain Clan where I had LinkSan teach me how to play the game better.
Some clans do this 2 tier membership process RTK and Wolves come to mind which is a good idea to encourage players to develop.
Im totally against the no newbies games as its unfriendly and arrogant we all have to learn. (and also killing newbies can be fun lol)
One thing i notice on the increase is players quitting when they have bad allies.
Quiet simply all vets know that they take this risk if they join a game with players they dont recognise so play it to the end dont quit in the middle or dont join in the first place.
We need some promotion in the game forum about the new maps, not everyone reads here.

It needs to be done as the some of the new maps are great.
I try to help new players when I see them asking for assistance in the lobby, and I give newbs in game tips it helps u and them when they on your side.

Sp00n

[tootee]

Actually nothing has changed from the 1st day TW was launched in STW.. it just that us here have grown and matured, in a technical and tactical sense.

The newcomers (dont like the noob word because it means nobody.. really disrepectful.. who knows there maybe a few AMPs in the making?) are just going through the learning curve most of us had gone through since STW.

With every migration of TW version, technically we have to re-learn but the learning-curve is smoother for subseqent upgrades because the controls more or less are the same. But tactically, there is no re-learning.. one will continue to improve on his/her battlefield decisions and teamplay the more one plays in TW.. you may leave for 1/2 a yr, so technically you may need to refresh the controls, but tactically you are as good or almost as good as the last time.

I think on average the time needed for a newcomers to become technically sound and then tactically sound remain the same. It is just that tactically, since we started mostly in STW era, the gap between them and the veterans are quite wide.

Maybe another factor is those who started playing STW has a certain love or facination with Japanese samurai culture? and I take it that mostly these people cherish honourability and such.. a small 'cultural' divide between the STW-starters and MTW-starters? just a guess only...

anyway be less demanding on the newcomers and help them grow. i think its normal to get angry with them sometimes, but never to hate them. there will always be some really annoying nuts out there, even back in STW times.. so i wouldnt take these into the equation.

[Jochi Khan]

Well spoken tootee

Pity a lot more didn't feel this way.

.....Jochi

[Dionysus9]

One key to avoiding frustration when helping newer playrs is:
Do not care more about their education than they do themselves.

If they do not seem to care about improving their game, then leave them to their own devices. If they are begging for help and guidance, then take them under your wing.

Call them "novices" instead of newbs. It shows you have some class. Most novices need help understanding how to group their units and move their army as a single group. Teach them ALT-RIGHTCLICK and ALT-LEFTCLICK--that is the first skill to teach a novice.

When I'm playing against novices I try to play "the perfect game." Lose as few men as possible and kill as many as possible. This way it is ALWAYS challenging, even if the novice is very bad. Play YOUR game.

When I'm playing WITH novices (as allies), I again try to make the best tactical decisions I can make under the circumstances. Many times you end up losing no matter what you do, but when you try to do your best--and make the best "moves"-- you are challenged all the same.

Losing an impossible battle is no shame. Winning an impossible battle is the height of victory.

Yes we all like to win, yes we all like to have strong allies-- but dealing with adversity and adapting to new allies are important skills and show both depth of skill and character in a veteran.

I like to play with all sorts of players, novices, veterans, clans, ronins, etc. Just because you lose a game doesnt mean you played poorly--too many forget that.

Ultimately I think the problem is an ego problem, as Louis has stated.

[baz]

glad you stuck through it Louis :) sadly you do see a lot of new players receiving rude treatment that is not warranted. I have found that sometimes you have some really good, fun games when newer players are included. If you do not wnt to be involved in these games use passwords, i dont like to see new guys being interrogated and then booted to help inflate people's ego's ??

I remember not too long ago when Shaka was brand new to the game. In our first game together he offered me advice, which i took of course ;)

[Swoosh So]

Well for me has nothing to do with 'ego' Its my right to choose who i spend my games online with. ive been helping noobs since way back in stw (noobs to me means new player). The abuse i get in pm os probably from undercover vets but how can i be sure I dont care win or lose in this game anymore but i dont like wasted games.

[Dionysus9]

A wasted game is a sin, but we must live with them even when we have clan 4v4's.

no shame in joining the games u would rather play.

[ichi]

I played a wasted game tonite, when my ally in a 3v3 brings a rush army.

"are you ready, I don't want to get shot up"

"you should bring some pavs"

"I don't like the archer wars, they are boring" and rushes to his (and our) death.

So 15 minutes wasted. He seemd like a nice guy but would not listen - he was going to rush in and he was sure that he could win that way.

But it doesn't change my mind. I still think that new players are the potential life of this game.

I used Bachus' theory


Quote[/b] ]One key to avoiding frustration when helping newer playrs is:
Do not care more about their education than they do themselves.

and it worked (for the most part lol)

ichi

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ Jan. 16 2004,19:19)]Well for me has nothing to do with 'ego' Its my right to choose who i spend my games online with. ive been helping noobs since way back in stw (noobs to me means new player). The abuse i get in pm os probably from undercover vets but how can i be sure I dont care win or lose in this game anymore but i dont like wasted games.
Hey Swoosh, I say beginner (or whoever) bragging is an ego problem, not passwording game and choosing with whom you want to spend your time online

... or you are answering to baz ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif


Quote[/b] ]One key to avoiding frustration when helping newer playrs is:
Do not care more about their education than they do themselves

I somehow fail to do that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif

Louis,

[baz]

i agree swoosh and most of the time i do, only play with who i want to. However, imo, i just think it is nice to show some sensitivity to the new guys when they want to play too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Pitt_Slayer]

well the fun thing about 1.1 vs 2.1 is on mtw you never know the abilitys of your allie's or who your facing

most peeps playing mtw are either noobs or ok

when i started playing mp it was newbies\ok\good\excellent,
i learnt the game by playing,saving replays and watching vets, i got tips from some vets and crap from other's.
(remember we were all noobs once)

but my point is: if you play with clan m8's you tend to get lazy and let them make the first move, but when ur side is noobs\ok peeps you've got no choice but to make thing's happen or you'll get beat AND that keeps you active and sharp.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

It somehow depends in which clan you are...

My clanies are adept at picking odd armies and strange behavior on the field, hence very challenging games. Sometimes it looks like we try to come up with the weirdest set up possible. And we don't even talk about it beforehand as a 'fun' game; pretty much all the games are like that.

Example; 2 days ago, 4v4 with 3[FF] on one side. Late 10K game; Heart got an english army with 4 pav arb, 4 longbow, 4 arquebusier and 4 chivalric knights. An came up with Hord set up with light cav, light cav, and more light cav.
I played Byz, with 3 pav, 2 arqs, 3 PA, 4 Alan, 4 Byz cav. Stat wise, arq were my best troops.

It is safe to say we had no regular infantry whatsoever.

The 4th guy on our side found that... challenging... He had a regular army.

My point is; with some clans, playing with clanbrothers and sisters is what keep you sharp and active. It is a relief to side with other guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

But it is fun

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Louis,

[Sulla]

Maybe a stupid Idea, but why not do the following. A couple of vets are in the lobby (not all the same clan, just vets) They feel like training someone and host a game with title Training new players. The newbies who come in, are offered advice. If they dont want to listen to advice just ban them from a next game. If you got a nice group together, they will be sure to remember you and will join you in future games. This way, You can teach them things day by day, at there own speed.. You know soon enuff who are really interested and who are not?

any toughts on this ?

regards Sulla http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Good idea
But it'll have to overcome the laziness of the community...