How in God's name do you survive as Welsh????

[Revenant69]

Well, I gave a Welsh campaign a go a few days back. And oh boy am i ever in a world of hurt. Things were quite OK in the beginning, I managed to take one of the rebel provinces close to me (not Defet, the other one), was allied with everyone except Mercians and Vikings. see there were no ports in any vicinity so i couldnt ally myself with Vikings.

Just about as I built up an army to take Defet, guess who shows up ahead of me?.....Thats right, its the whole bloody Viking family. They take Defet, leave it in ashes and as a result there is a HUGE two stack revolt. Well, there goes my plan of taking it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Mercian threat around me makes me build some armies, only enough to deter them really, I need the rest of the money to improve infrastructure and +600/year just doesnt do it.

So finally, Viking king and about 5 of his princes plus 3 berserkers show up in Pouis (my heartland). Even though i terrbily outnumber the Vikings I simply cannot defeat them. I do not have access to any good troops as of yet, celtic warriors being my army staple. They ravage and kill my king and thats the end of that campaign. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

My questions are many....
What are your initial building priorities?
How in God's name is it possible to defeat masses of huscarles and berserkers led by obscene * generals?
What do you do about the nasty neighbours who want to eat you alive?
Do you expand or do you dig in?
How do you manage your finances?
What should be the army composition for the Welsh?

These are just a few to start it...
I shall go and do a search and see what I can find.
This is the first campaign that I lost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif it was remarkably short too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

Rev

[PseRamesses]

Revenant69,
I played the Welsh on two occasions with different outcome:
1. First time I dug in, taking only the neighbouring reb-provinces. Went for cash-related upgrades and huge stacks with celts. I survived the first boring 50 years and was thinking about getting on the offense when the Mercians and Saxons decided to engage me on two fronts. I was able to hold them of but my stack are shrinking fast when the Northumbrians decided to have a piece of me. Game over
2. Second time I went on the offensive, pretty much playing the hit-and-run style of the Vikings which allowed me to take out the Saxons first, Mercians secondly and engaging the Nortumbrians before even seeing one viking. I didn´t play this game through though since I´m a builder. But I´m pretty shure that taking out your opponent early is the key to a successful Welsh game.

[Revenant69]

So, was I just really unlucky or something? My game didnt even last for 20 years. One major Viking raid and I was a gonner. Talk about pathetic eh?

I did some testing in custom battles on flat terrain, 1 viking huscarle vs 2 royal bodyguard cavalry (1 hitting from the front and 1 hitting from the rear).

Huscarle was valor4/wpn1/armr 1 (in the campaign they sent valor6 huscarles with armor, wpn upgrades) and my cavalry was valor2 (what i had at the time in the game).

After trying many combinations of formations and always attacking from front and rear my cavalry never ever won.

So instead of 2 royal cav I tried 1 royal cav and 1 horsemen (for a total of 60 men) and this time horsemen hit from the front and royal cav from behind. I did win, but lost about 40 men. This is not a really economical way of dealing with huscarles. Does anyone have a better way ofdealing with them en masse?

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Revenant69 @ Jan. 18 2004,06:16)]So, was I just really unlucky or something? My game didnt even last for 20 years. One major Viking raid and I was a gonner. Talk about pathetic eh?
...eh, I think I was lucky rather than u being pathetic. I also tried the cav-flank/rear-tactic but as I recall it I switched to archers. I had around 10 in a offensive-stack with 6 "good" def units. When archers were finished I bought on masses of celtic warriors. As I mentioned erlier I took losses but atleast I was sucessful - or was I? I didn´t play the games through so I don´t know.

[Funky Phantom]

I imagine Welsh Bandits would be good since theyre kinda like Longbowmen, but i appreciate that they wouldnt be available to you in time for the early raids http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

When it comes to the Vikings i think the main factor is luck, you just have to hope they dont come for you early on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif

Ship building is vital to preventing raids from happening in the first place, so you should probably start building ships in your coastal provinces asap, trying to ally with them early may also be worth a shot.

Good luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Revenant69 @ Jan. 18 2004,04:13)]My questions are many....
What are your initial building priorities?
How in God's name is it possible to defeat masses of huscarles and berserkers led by obscene * generals?
What do you do about the nasty neighbours who want to eat you alive?
Do you expand or do you dig in?
How do you manage your finances?
What should be the army composition for the Welsh?
Revenant69,
U actually made me do a test-game as the Welsh today. Here´s my summary:

Caradoc I, 787-820 ad; Took Defet, Guined and Manau (when I had ships). Builded only money-generating upgrades. Had one 16-unit army consisting of 1RBG, 2HM, 1SPE, 6ARCH and 6CW. Had only 5 acc. govs in provs and tax on max giving me a yearly profit of 1400 florins.

Conan I, 821-835 ad; Kept building farms, tp´s etc and expanded my army to three 16-unit armies. Went down to a yearly profit of 800 fl.

Caradoc II, 836-847 ad; Started wasr on Saxons in 838 ad and quickly took Defnas, Dornsaete and Sumorsaete. Collected over 7.500 fl. in ransom, pillage etc. I´m now up to 1850 fl. profit.

Cadwallon I, 848- ad; Time to smite the Mercians. Builded up to six 16-unit armies with 3-7 star generals/ heirs and launched blitzkrieg upon the Mercians in 858 ad. Took Wrocen Saetan, Hwicce, West Seaxe and Suth Seaxe collecting around 14.000 fl. in ransoms etc.

No need to continue because I know I´m gonna win now. My conclusions are the following:

Avoid being attacked by sea and build ships early. Build only mines, farms, ports etc until all are built, except the 16 year upgrade. Then make military buildings in two more provinces but leave the rest. Well the rest is up to you, good luck

[Brutal DLX]

I would say you just got unlucky. When I played the Welsh, I didn't have much trouble with the Vikings, they raided once and retreated, IIRC. Of course I took all the rebel provinces after initially building my home provinces to a point where I could raise some basic troops and had some income.
You will never have much money and until you can build Welsh bandits, you have to fool them with smoke and mirrors. Try to ally with the Saxons and Mercians, and then attack the Mercians once the Saxons attack, that's the way to expand, for me anyway. After you took some nice provinces, let the Saxons press onward against the Northern factions, and then backstab them by taking the Southern provinces. By that time, you should have plenty of units, including the Welsh bandits, which can first rain arrows on their huscarls and then finish them up in melee.
Also try to get some ships to guard and connect your provinces, they can be used later on for all kinds of naval invasions and quick transportation.

[Idaho]

Yeah I've won with the Welsh. Blockade your seas firstly. Then make alliances with the Saxons and Mercians. Slowly bide your time, cover borders and build until you get the Bandits...

By then you should be able to produce decent Horse and reasonable spear and melee units. From then on it's back to traditional arrows up, cavalry charge, infantry press tactics.

[Obex]

I only tried the Welsh once, and i got spanked pretty hard. i lasted a long time, having allied myself with the mercians and saxons, and just built up my provinces, taking rebel land when i could. I kept waiting to be able to produce better troops than the wussy celtic warriors, but they never came. i remember one battle where one high honor unit of saxon huscarls rampaged through my army. my archers were useless, my flanking royal cav all were butchered, and my celtic warriors only served to slow them down. one unit. i quit the campaign when i looked and saw stacks of maybe 12 huscarls in my neighboring provinces. stupid celtic warriors.

[The_Emperor]

My Welsh campaign has gone very well...

I started off and right off the bat I mass-produced Celtic Warriors and attacked the Saxons http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

After a few quick successes and allying myself with the Vikings and the Mercians through marrying off daughters, I invaded the Home Saxon Province and strangely enough their King and Prince Died in the Battle, soon enough their nation went Rebel.

The Vikings were raiding the remaining rebels and soon enough when I invaded the eastern former-Saxon lands the vikings co-invaded the province next door, the rebel army with nowhere to go when they retreated was captured.

Now I own southern England and am building a fleet quite well.

My advice, attack the Saxons and take their rich lands, but your heartlands will need to be kept weak in such a risky venture.

Now that my armies have the greatest numbers, & my navy is on the way up, and I am on the verge of getting bandits things are looking good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[kawligia]

Try this, it is what I did as Scotland:

1) Ally with the Vikings...they almost always accept the first alliance proposal, and reject all future ones, then ally with your neighbors. If they fight with each other, pick the one that has the most borders with you. Either way you will have to pick between them and the Vikings eventually. Pick the Vikings for God's sake.

2)Mass produce units, and upgrade as quickly as possible to get a ship, then stop upgrading as your starting provences will most likely be taken shortly especially since the Vikings made you break all you alliances. You don't want all that upgrading to benifit your enemy do you?

3) Use that ship to attack Ireland and take both of the Irish provences eliminating the faction as well as Ulster, then kill of the surrounding rebels...You want to do this b/c Ireland is very rich. As time goes on you want to make this you base of operation and your money making and unit producing provences...the safe haven that it is.

4) Keep building fleets to take you up north and raid the larger and richer provences. Take the towns and destroy everything in it. Rinse lather repeat. This will not only give you money to upgrade and build an army, but it will REALLY slow down your enemy...they will have no money and lose the ability to produce more troops.

5) Once you have a few nice stacks and a big fat wallet, start from Orcades and work your way down. When you get to the chokehold in lower Scotland it is time to re-evaluate your alliances. Ally with Northumbria or whoever is there and begin raiding the strongest of the factions in southern England, or hell all of them if you have Northumbria as a buffer. This will destroy their infrastructure just the same as it did with the Scots and the Picts. Start from the south and work you way up, finally meeting up with Northumbria for the victory.

6) Try not to own all the coastal provences till last or else the Vikings will get hungry and break the alliance.

[Bezalel]

When I played with the Welsh, I did basically the same thing as The_Emperor. Kick the crap out of the Saxons straight off. Then, build ships as quickly as possible, and simply sink a viking ship whenever you see one. Then, I hit the Irish to get my grubby hands on some nice land. By this time, every other country is asking for an alliance. Then, betray the mercians. Took out the scots, crushed the northumbrians from both sides, bribed viking armies, then the picts. The moral of the story w/ campaigns, being aggressive pays (as long as you know your limits).

[Revenant69]

Well, after reading your replies and knowing the downfall of my first Welsh campaign I restarted a new one. This time I am doing quite well.

It seems that the key for surviving as Welsh is to take the 2 neighbouring rebel provinces as soon as possible. The reason is that Vikings like to raid rebels as they are a much easier target. So if you leave a rebel province near you, they will hit it and shortly afterwards will hit you.

So this time, on turn one of the game, my king Caradoc lead his entire army out of Pouis into Defet and after some bloody fighting (king was the only man left alive in his unit) I had it in my control. I did this because I felt that Mercians would not dare invade me this early with their puny armies.

On turn 3 I took Clwyd. After that I started buiulding up miltary/economic infrastructure, especially in Defet as it is a very rich province.

Also in my isolated province (forget its name) I started building a port from turn 3 and my princess was on the march there. Once the port was done, she went searching for the Viking king and it took about 15 years to be able to track him down as he was always raiding. LOL But eventually the Vikings agreed to my proposal and we became allies.

With the threat of the Vikings gone I continued to build infrastructure and about 40 years later I hit the Saxons as they were taking a full brunt of Viking raids. I managed to take a couple of their territories, thus connecting my Kingdom. But the dastardly Saxons just wouldnt go away and were launching major raids on me from West Seaxe.

So it took me five attempts to invade West Seaxe successfully, as their huscarles simply were too much for my still shitty army. I had to rely on hordes of Mercs. I really mean Hordes. For about ten years I was buying almost every merc and kept sending them at the Saxons.

Eventually I managed to wear the Saxons down by destroying the majority of their huge huscarle army. Hehe, in the process two of my princes became Good runners and so I had one assassinated and the other one was sent on a suicide mission.

Well, its been over a hundred years now, Vikings and I are still allies. My fleet is beginning to rival theirs. And i am generally in pretty good shape.

Oh, by the way, I LOVE Welsh Bandits. In one of my battles 4 units of them accounted for nearly a thousand kills (spearmen, armored spearmen, archers and knights). What I did with them is deploy them ahead of my main line (I was on defense), wait for the enemy to bypass them and be close to engaging my main line. Then I sprung my ambush completely enveloping the enemy army from behind by Bandits and from the sides by cavalry. It was a massacre.

Thanks for all your advice, it was very helpful in formulating my strategy.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Revenant69 @ Jan. 21 2004,18:37)]It seems that the key for surviving as Welsh is to take the 2 neighbouring rebel provinces as soon as possible.

So it took me five attempts to invade West Seaxe successfully, as their huscarles simply were too much for my still shitty army.

Oh, by the way, I LOVE Welsh Bandits.

Thanks for all your advice, it was very helpful in formulating my strategy.
Yuo, take the neighbouruing reb provs on first. I usually take out Manau too because I build ships quickly.

Sounds like your playing on expert? I play at normal and don´t find it so overwhealming although I didn´t wait so long as you to attack them.

Getting to the Welsh bandits are a must.

Hey, no need for thanks Do you know how many times I been helped here on the forum? It´s just payback-time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ Jan. 22 2004,11:43)]
Quote[/b] (Revenant69 @ Jan. 21 2004,18:37)]It seems that the key for surviving as Welsh is to take the 2 neighbouring rebel provinces as soon as possible.

Yuo, take the neighbouruing reb provs on first. I usually take out Manau too because I build ships quickly.
I actually took on those Rebel Provinces after I had defeated the Saxons, I wanted to make sure they wouldn't have the Huscarls by the time I got around to them

The Rebels cannot build stuff so their numbers will stay managable... I came back and finished them off easily enough (and the viking Raids on Rebels worked in my favor).

A Mercian Civil War also helped my cause when I attacked the Rebel ringleader in a bordering province.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Jan. 22 2004,07:35)]I actually took on those Rebel Provinces after I had defeated the Saxons, I wanted to make sure they wouldn't have the Huscarls by the time I got around to them

The Rebels cannot build stuff so their numbers will stay managable... I came back and finished them off easily enough (and the viking Raids on Rebels worked in my favor).

A Mercian Civil War also helped my cause when I attacked the Rebel ringleader in a bordering province.
That´s a new approach - gotta try it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[PrinceBrobex]

Thanks guys, the above has been very helpful in my game as the Welsh. It's early, but I have all of Wales, Man, Ulster, a fleet, and money in the bank - and I seem to be part of a Viking led Northern Alliance with the Irish, and the Northumbrians.
Sure, The Mercians are massing huscarls on my border but with plenty of red gold in hand the mercenaries will flock to cornwall in an emergency. Saxons? I spit on the Saxons and their midland cousins You know they're not even real Christians? Their monks wear ridiculous tonsures and they celebrate Easter on the wrong date Let the northmen eat them.
Dang, the Viking era is good fun