Weird observations using custom battles

[ZZuluZ]

I've been doing a few custom battle tests. I've noticed two things.

Firstly, if you take a weak unit (urban militia or militia sergeants) and give them 4 valor and 1 weapon it costs slightly less than 1 unupgrade lancer yet they absolutely demolish the lancers This would seem to suggest that valour is of crucial importance. Do people use this in MP games? It seems it would merely become a question of optimizing the most bang for your buck, so to speak. There's no need for advanced units since they're not cost effective. This also suggests that raising valor is a key strategy in SP games.

Secondly, there is a LOT of randomness involved. In identical scenarios I will sometimes win very convincingly and lose convincingly. And this is not morale related and not related to the general's death. The only explanation I can find is that if you get lucky on the charge and kill a few more men than expected you can then fight basically 2 men against 1 in many places which furthers the demise of the enemy. It's somewhat disheartening tho, as it appears a lot of the outcome is based on luck.

Any thoughts?

[CBR]

Yes valor means a lot and we do see a lot of pumped up units in MP.

A valor increases a units attack and defense by 1 and morale by 2. While a weapon upgrade is +1 attack and armour upgrade is defense/armor by +1. Unit stats can be seen here (or just download the tool there) http://shogun.cafe24.com/medieval/


And there is some randomness in combat. It does take some superiority in combat stats before you can be certain of winning. I wouldnt say its bad really. A valor 1 feudal men at arm will win most of the fights against valor 0. Each man fighting has a chance of hitting an an enemy (based on combat and defense stats) and that will always produce different results.

The charge can sometimes produce very different results as it depends a lot on angle/speed and what the enemy unit is doing.


CBR

[Phatose]

In your example, don't forget that militia are polearms - big bonus vs cavalary, and armor piercing IIRC, which is going to be big trouble for something like lancers. It's kind of innately skewed towards the polearms, upgraded or not.


Anyway, While raising valour is certainly a good idea in SP games, it's not as important as it would be in an MP game. There are a number of reasons for this.

For one (and a real big one it is), you can't just buy valour - at best, you can get +1 if you hold a province with a bonus and produce it their. That's all. It's all well and good to use a 4 valour militia instead of a 1 valour lancer, but if all you can produce is either a 1 valour lancer or a 1 valour militia, the choice becomes much simpler - in the opposite direction.

Secondly, there are other considerations. Take weapon/armor upgrades - in multi, you have to buy these for each individual unit. In single player, once you pay the cost to build the armourer/metalsmith, the actual upgrades are free. There are also morale upgrading churches, which aren't available at all in multiplayer. And of course, the ever popular generals. A 9 star gives all your units +4 valour, (albiet without the morale bonus) and it starts to make the actual valour of the unit hard to get and nearly irrelevant vs all the other bonuses you can stack on a unit.


Mostly though, in SP what it comes down to is that it's far, far easier to obtain a fully upgraded teched up unit then it is to get a valoured-up low grade unit. The only really easy ways to get valour works for either high tech or low tech. So why would you go low tech?

[ZZuluZ]

CBR,

Where can I find the download in that link?


Quote[/b] ] armour upgrade is defense/armor by +1

So armor increases defense and protection from arrows or just the latter?


Quote[/b] ] The charge can sometimes produce very different results as it depends a lot on angle/speed and what the enemy unit is doing.

Indeed. Interesting but frutrating. Especially for testing purposes.

Phatose,


Quote[/b] ] In your example, don't forget that militia are polearms - big bonus vs cavalary, and armor piercing IIRC, which is going to be big trouble for something like lancers. It's kind of innately skewed towards the polearms, upgraded o

Good point, that would explain that in large part. But I tested byzantine infantry and the result was even more staggering


Quote[/b] ] Mostly though, in SP what it comes down to is that it's far, far easier to obtain a fully upgraded teched up unit then it is to get a valoured-up low grade unit. The only really easy ways to get valour works for either high tech or low tech. So why would you go low tech?

Hmm. How can you get a fully upgraded tech up unit though?

Other question: I haven't had a chance to use Hashishins yet so I tried them in custom and they weren't invisible (this was in the desert). What gives?

Also, Hobilars (for the same price) with upgrades tested superior to lancers. So why would I use lancers in MP (I have not played MP yet)?

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] ]So armor increases defense and protection from arrows or just the latter?
Armour protects against missile fire AND is added to defence when calculating the chance of a hit.

[CBR]

Militia Sergeants and Urban Militia are NOT polearms so they dont get any bonus versus cavalry. But they are armour piercing and against Lancers that would give them a bonus of +3 attack.

Direct link to download here (http://shogun.cafe24.com/phpBB2/download.php?id=25&sid=829bb2113d60dad25f8ac63958f13e8d)

The attack and defense stat is for melee while armour is for missile. And a armour upgrade gives both better defense for melee and armour v missile yes.

The big problem with upgrades is that they can make considerable changes to a units base stats. 4 Valor is 4 attack and 4 defense (8 combat points) added and that can turn a rather low quality unit to be better than the best elite units.

But you still have to look at costs. Its not all cheap units that are good. The Lancer is still one of the best units for its cost if you compare with other upgraded cavalry. A v4w1 hobilar would cost 1388 florins and have same total attack/defense stat as a Lancer that cost 850.

Of course it was not always like that. MTW 1.0 (the version we had before the patch and later on the Viking Expansion) was very different. Valor upgrades were cheaper while the elite units were more expensive. We saw lots of alans back then heh.


CBR

[ZZuluZ]

Weirdest thing so far: upgraded (for same price) hand gunners crushing lancers head on.

[Phatose]

Just checked the files, CBR is correct, no cavalary attack bonus. The armor piercing is there though.






Anyway, in SP setting fully upgraded, teched up units is as easy as finding an appropriate province (one with iron deposits) and building the neccessary buildings. It's a time consuming initial investment - but once you've got the facilities manufactured, you can pump out troops with abandon. With Valour, the best you can do is a +1 in an appropriate province. After that, the only way to gain more real valour is combat. Which means that getting extra valour is decidely more complicated and time consuming then weapon/armor/morale upgrades. I've gotten one or two units that gained signifigant valour in the campaign, but seldom more. By comparision, I can easily get vast stacks of +4/+4 weapon/armor upgraded troops just by holding Iberia and building.

Getting upgraded weapon/armor troops, and higher class troops in the campaign is therefore as easy as building the correct buildings and pressing the build button. Getting valour of more then 1 requires considerable combat. This is of course, discounting the honor bonus from generals - but that's not really the same as valour bought in a skirmish.


Though, if all this is true, then it sounds to me like the MP version needs a major price scheme overhaul. But I'm mainly a campaign mode guy, so I'm probably not one to ask.

[nightraven436]

I also tested Hashishins in custom battle. If you look at the bar on the bottom where all your units are, you'll see they always have a tree there, meaning they are hidden. Except when they fire at an enemy, then I noticed the tree went away.

[ZZuluZ]

But when I gave the computer Hashishins...I could see them

[Somebody Else]

Regarding the (in)visible Hashishin. If it's moving, you can see it. If it's fighting, you can see it. If it's shooting, you can see it. If it's a general unit, you can see it. Otherwise, you can't see it.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] ]Other question: I haven't had a chance to use Hashishins yet so I tried them in custom and they weren't invisible (this was in the desert). What gives?


Quote[/b] ]If you look at the bar on the bottom where all your units are, you'll see they always have a tree there, meaning they are hidden. Except when they fire at an enemy, then I noticed the tree went away.


Quote[/b] ]But when I gave the computer Hashishins...I could see them

Same with Welsh Bandits - you can see them when they shoot or move.

Make sure you set the Hashis (or Bandits) to not skirmish (Hold Formation) and set Fire at Will off. With Skirmish on they will move when approached, thus revealing their presence. With Fire-at-Will turned off, they will not shoot and give themselves away.

In Viking Welsh Bandits can be quite effective if you wait until the enemy infantry is within range before you start shooting.

ichi

[ZZuluZ]

But how can they be maneuvered around the map if they can't move??

[Somebody Else]

You could try moving them in dead ground (behind a hill or something), to get into a position where they could ambush an enemy general unit or something, or on defence just stick them miles forwards and to the side.

[ZZuluZ]

But won't the enemy see them moving there or does it forget about that? Do they re-become invisible once they stop moving for a certain amount of time?

Anyway, from testing them in custom battles, they seem somewhat pointless even at high valor.

[Ludens]

Regarding the Hashishin, in STW you had a equivalent unit in the form of battlefield ninja's: 12 men armed with swords and shurikens.
If the AI had them, I could see them moving, but I couldn't target them until they were quite close. Since the AI used them incorrectly (in the few cases he had them), this was not a problem. When I used them, I found that the AI actually ignores them until he accidentally stumbles onto them or if they open fire. But anyway, I never got much use out of them. They couldn't even kill an ashigaru general

[Mummer]

Welsh bandits are not useless, even if they can be seen. An army of 4 valor Welsh bandits nearly destroyed an army of 4 valor Joms Vikings and Viking Huscarles in one of my custom battles. They are expert archers, like Longbowman, but they have a good attack and charge on top of that. They are my favorite unit.