Ashigaru sacrifice

[DeathOnaPaleHorse]

I bring this subject up because I was explaining the basic bridge crossing tactic to my girlfriend, and strangely enough, she was actually interested.

I explained the tactic I use, and I think a lot of players use against the AI, (lining gunmen and archers along the banks, marching Ashi in one by one to draw the enemy in to firing range, and deplete the enemy of arrows.) Anyway, she thought it was pretty sad that 3/4th of the peasants would get their asses toasted. I explained that sacrificing most of the Ashi would actually save lives later on (ie. when I send the naginata and assault troops over and they can route the enemy quickly.)

Regardless to say, she wasn't happy with that reply, so I explained that after I take the river province, I let the surviving imaginary peasants go back home. That seemed to cheer her up.

Does anybody else use another effective method to cross the river? And is my assesment accurate? Am I saving imaginary lives by sending my ashi to their doom?

------------------
Philosophy of Wing Chun

One who excels as a warrior does not appear formidable;
One who excels in fighting is never aroused in anger;
One who excels in defeating his enemy does not join issues;
One who excels in employing others humbles himself before them.
This is the virtue of non-contention and matching the sublimity of heaven.
[/list]

Quote You can gaze upon the lords, but looking at the shogun will make you blind; and the emperor cannot be seen at all.[/QUOTE] -Old Japanese saying

[Sword_Monkey]

My tactic is pretty much the same as yours except I'm happy to sacrifice Yari Sams as well if that's what I've got available. I tend to not build Ashi if I can avoid it because other than pin cushions and the occasional calvary impaling they're often more trouble then they're worth.

I don't worry about saving lives. I'm here to win the Shogunate for my clan's honour - the lives of one man or 1000 men are nothing next to that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Tac]

Ashi's are the worst choice in bridge assaults IMO.

Those chickensheets rout too easily and can cause the rest of your forces to run.


I prefer to use warrior monks or no-dachi. Preferably the monks since their morale is higher. Send them forth in a rush and keep your next monk unit right behind them. The objective of the monks is to cut a gap in front of the bridge (enemy's side) so you can rush your own yari sams and other units, form them up and break out of the bridghead.

Sometimes I find that Yari Cavalry are the best bait. Their speed allows them to cross the bridge and RUN along the riverbank, drawing away the enemy unit that reacted to the crossing.. and once the cav. is near clearing the enemy forces along the river, you send in your own men rushing across the bridge. the AI tends to first recall the unit chasing the yari cav and then decide to not do it and use another unit.. but that time is enought for you to cross 2 or 3 units to form the bridgehead.

[Gothmog]

It's so interesting, sometimes I think if the AI uses the archers/guns the way we are using, NONE of the river provinces can be taken by force.

[DeathOnaPaleHorse]

If the AI used our tactics to defend a bridge province, we would have to surround the province and just keep sending armies in until attrition catches up with it.

[Catiline]

i use the Daimyos hatamato guard. I've never known the daimyo get killed by archers, and the unit regenerates. plus they never get caught by enemy units sent to engage, who get tempted down into your own zone of fire.

------------------
Et sceleratis sol oritur

[Steeleye]

I think if the AI used tactics AT ALL most river crossing battles would be impossible http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

My friend, you're deluding yourself if you think that ashi fodder runs are saving lives. All you're doing, like everyone else is protecting the interests of your strong-box. 'Mmmm, now, should i send in the peasants with the bits of bamboo, or my personal retinue that i've just spent the last two winters income kitting out?... mmm....

I like to think that the 2 Ashi who survive the assault (i always send them back again until they just refuse to rally!) get to go home and toil in the fields for the rest of their miserable lives so that I can by another bridle for my horse....

Strangely, my girl also questioned the morality of sending hapless peasants to their deaths. But hey, that's just the way of the world... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[james]

Quote Originally posted by Tac:
Ashi's are the worst choice in bridge assaults IMO.

Those chickensheets rout too easily and can cause the rest of your forces to run.


I prefer to use warrior monks or no-dachi. Preferably the monks since their morale is higher. Send them forth in a rush and keep your next monk unit right behind them. The objective of the monks is to cut a gap in front of the bridge (enemy's side) so you can rush your own yari sams and other units, form them up and break out of the bridghead.

Sometimes I find that Yari Cavalry are the best bait. Their speed allows them to cross the bridge and RUN along the riverbank, drawing away the enemy unit that reacted to the crossing.. and once the cav. is near clearing the enemy forces along the river, you send in your own men rushing across the bridge. the AI tends to first recall the unit chasing the yari cav and then decide to not do it and use another unit.. but that time is enought for you to cross 2 or 3 units to form the bridgehead.[/QUOTE]
]

the problem with sending warrior monks and no dachi'bad idea' is that they die to easy by 100's of arrows coming their way.i prefere to use naginata with their armour on lengendary status *hint hint*,think about it next time your on a bridge province!!

[Tac]

Naginatas good choice too, but they are too slow. By the time they cross the bridge and get into any kind of formation, the AI melee units are on them, clogging the bridge with trapped naginatas and meleeing units.

Monks are FAST and manage to get there and fight. Arrows dont kill them that much if they are "marching quickly".

[Cheetah]

The surprising solution is to use a mix of nagis/monks/nodachis. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Send forth your nagis in loose formation to draw the attention of enemy archers, then charge through with your meele units.

[evilc]

just kit up ur troops so well it doesn't matter who you send, you'll still win.

[james]

yyeess.. another idea(knew about for ages).send your daimyo(11 heavy horses)across the bloody bridge,try to avoid the evil enemies,run to the back of the map,enemies follow you(except maybe archers),send in heavy or yari cavalry to kill the achers,then send hand-to-hand units in get in defensive postition,get daimyo back behind your lines*hint hint*then simply engage(vey very useful tactic!!!

------------------
no yur enemy,no yurself and u will never be defeated in 100 battles

poopscoop1@btopenworld.com

[FasT]

Quote Originally posted by james:
yyeess.. another idea(knew about for ages).send your daimyo(11 heavy horses)across the bloody bridge,try to avoid the evil enemies,run to the back of the map,enemies follow you(except maybe archers),send in heavy or yari cavalry to kill the achers,then send hand-to-hand units in get in defensive postition,get daimyo back behind your lines*hint hint*then simply engage(vey very useful tactic!!!

[/QUOTE]Will work in SP but not in MP the AI is very dum,and must be improve much more in MTW http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markuk/t.gif/wolf11.gif
Grey Wolves
FastCub

[Sword_Monkey]

The tactical AI is definitely the number one improvement I want to see in MTW. They could re-release WE with totally recoded tactical AI and that right there would just about be enough of an upgrade.

As an example, at a bridge battle, if you're dumb enough to send a single unit of Ashi or whatever across, the AI should withhold archer fire, wait until your units make it across, then either bum rush or just ignore them depending on where your archers are. It would force you into doing what's realistic, committing a large number of forces to a mad dash across the bridge trying to get a foot hold on the opposite side and taking monstrous casualties in the process.

That this wasn't part of the original AI shows they didn't put much thought into how the AI could be abused. If you attack the game in a 100% role playing way and don't act as if you're playing a limited AI, battles play very realistically with what they did put in there. However, if you play it like a strategy game on the battlefield there's a lot of ways to crush the AI without much risk to you.

In general I try to play it "real" but for bridge battles I'm a weak man http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Nelson]

Ashigaru are plentiful and cheap. If someone must die to cross the bridge in the face of grim fire they are the logical choice. At the very least the enemy will tire from killing them and be the weaker when the main force crosses. Sending expensive troops into heavy fire is foolish when patience and peasants can assure victory while preserving valuable samurai.

[DeathOnaPaleHorse]

i agree completely with that assesment... By the time my ashi refuse to cross the bridge again, my fully armored Naginata can just stroll over the bridge and hold position while my assault troops attack.