Horse & elephant have very weak point

[kanett]

I don't understand why it is so hard to fight with calvary or elephant unit. What you need to do with them is only to

First, lay as low as possible. Then, Swing your sword to one of their leg and that's it, the horse will trip over and and rider will fall.

I think one strong swing is enough to damage the horse leg eventhough there are armor. Am I correct?

[ZZuluZ]

Um, if they see you get down, you're just going to get speared in the back.

[Phatose]

What, exactly, is going to keep the elephant or horse from stepping on you or kicking you in the noggin? And if your plan does somehow work, and the elephant/horse goes down....won't it fall directly on you? Considering how much a barded warhorse must weigh (let alone an elephant), that sounds like a sure-fire way to die.

[Monk]

Let's try to get in the mindset of a soldier in each of these situations.

Scene 1: Your a happy farmer, you have lived for around 20 years and you are pretty happy as a citizen of Rome, you go to the barracks of the legions one day and put your service in. couple years pass and you have trained pretty well, Then you hear of Hannibal marching all over Italy; you think I can gain some valor finally and show the honor of my family.

You are assinged to a unit and you march up to the river Trebia. Its cold, you wanna go home. Your commander orders you to cross the river and attack, as you march through the freezing river you can see Hannibal's army, and to your horror you see the Elephants, a thing you have never seen before. Your drilled forth and you charge The Carthage line, and out come the Elephants, you who have never seen such a thing in your life, and now have a 10-20 foot Monster charging at you. Would you try to duck down? no, chances are you would Run, i know I would. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Scene 2: Your a soldier in the English army, you have spent your time in the service of a prince of the court and you are pretty damn proud to serve. The King orders the army in which you serve in to take and hold Anjour, you think No problem, with our spearlines we will have no problem holding the French cavalry.

You arrive on the battlefield a few months later, and out to meet you is a much larger cavalry force than you had expected. With Infantry behind the French order the charge. Hold the Line your commander shouts, The heavily armoured horse are thundering down the plain as their hooves pound into the dirt, The French soldiers let out their war cry and dawn their lances come. You look upon them and fear grips you, the french crash into the line and your now fighting despratly to keep your sanity and not run. Your unit commander falls and you are without leadership, do you run? I would http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Somebody Else]

As we all know, to kill an elephant, all one has to do is climb up the tail and shoot an arrow or three into it's head.

Otherwise my favourite battlefield weapon can come into play... caltrops

[Phatose]

...those better be some big caltrops if an elephant is gonna even notice em, much less be slowed by them.

[CBR]

Well they are weak points. The trick is to stop the enemy horse/elephant so you actually can cut legs/hamstrings. Some soldiers did also soear the bellies of the horses IIRC.

The infantry formation has to stop the cavalry. If anything goes wrong (especially soldiers starting to panic) and the formation falls apart then the cavalry will simply ride through and over everything. A god cavalry charge would basically be knee to knee.. a one big wall of horses and there is no where for you to hide if you dont stop them.

Combined arms is one thing, training and confidence is another thing. Good weapons doesnt matter if the soldiers panic or simply doesnt have time enough to move together in the typically very dense anti-cav formation. The spear(or pike)/polearm combination proved several times to be very good against cavalry. The long pointy sticks to stop the cavalry and polearms to move in and chop up men and horses.


CBR

[Voigtkampf]

Just use a mouse on the elephant, works fine every time. I know, I saw it million times in cartoons. No big deal.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (kanett @ Jan. 18 2004,13:09)]I don't understand why it is so hard to fight with calvary or elephant unit. What you need to do with them is only to

First, lay as low as possible. Then, Swing your sword to one of their leg and that's it, the horse will trip over and and rider will fall.

I think one strong swing is enough to damage the horse leg eventhough there are armor. Am I correct?
Works with one horse/ elephant maybee. But charged with hundreds of them, tight together, a mass of tens of thousands of pounds rushing at you at 50 km/hr you have to have the balls of and oliphant to stand in front of them.

Why do you think anti-cav troops where equipped with 3-5m lances/ spears, stood shoulder to shoulder usually 6-10 rows deep in formation with dread commanders shouting hold, hooold, hooooold as the wall came thundering against you?
Well, it was that wall of spears that was the only way to stop a cav charge.

[Revenant69]

Have you seen Braveheart? The cavalry charge in that movie was done superbly IMHO. The slow-mo of thundering hooves, the wall of armor rushing toward you, the sudden battle cry to instill even more fear - I am scared just writing about it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

If I didnt have much training I would bolt, I would run faster than Ben Hur on his chariot. I would run faster than eagles fly. Chances are though that I'd be speared by the cavalry rushing behind....

Cavalry charge was as much a terror weapon as a cannon. And a well timed cavalry charge could change the fate of the battle.

This also reminds me an account of the battle at Gaugamella, where Alexander the Great broke through the Persian line with his cavalry and headed immediately for Darius who saw Alexander approach and, being scared for his life, fled the battle.

Darius' army, seeing their king flee, followed suit.

[kanett]

Ok, I should break the situation into two, one is charging and one is hand2hand.

For Charging Situation, I agree that calvary unit have advantage to overkill. What you could do to them is spear them while they're charging or batt your sword on horse's head like an incoming baseball. Hope this would freak the horse out and make them panic and jump around uncontrolably.

For Hand2hand Rumble Situation; once the horse slow down into h2h, they will become a passive target that just stood there waiting to be stabbed by infantry on the side or behind its ass. Also, they can't be controlled as wish so the rider will be facing toward whatever direction the horse is facing. They can't turn left/right or 360 degree so quickly while infantry can. So, infantry have much open opportunity to take down the horse.

This is where I think horse isn't very useful except for traveling.

Well, i don't really have the imagination of the real battle. Maybe after watching braveheart I'll post back again.

As for elephant, can a sword/arrow/spear go through its skin? Why the 5th post says only the weakpoint is the head?

[vlad_demstra]

didnt they use a big nail and a hammer to kill a elephant if it got out of control?

[FoundationII]

Do you think you can chop off an elefants leg in one blow??
I wan't to see you doing that

[Dillinger]

You must remember that the common barded warhorse must (NOT for sure here ...) have weighed in excess of a thousand pounds. That alone would put a serious dent in some sword swinging fools confidence, but when that horse is topped with a fully armored man with a big pointy stick, you gotta admit, that would be damn scary. Especially when they are in dense formation. With elephants it would be the same, except lots worse, do to the extremely strong hide and sheer size of the beast.

And about the stopped horse scenario, the whole point of a cavalry charge was to break through. There was never supposed to be any stalling for exactly the reasons you say. It would have been doomed.

[CBR]

No need to cut off the elephants leg. Just cut the hamstring, and the same thing with horses.

A horse (especially a stallion) is actually very resilient and in the melee it could both kick or bite. A wound would more likely piss off the horse instead of making it panic.

Even if the charge is broken up a rider can still try to walk/push into the men, it could turn into a nasty melee, but depends on morale and formation.


CBR

[BDC]

Hamstring the horse or cut its throat. If in close combat with an elephant I think moving so as not to be in close combat is probably a good move. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Against charging cavalry there is next to nothing you can do unless you are within a pike regiment really. Or a square centuries later, but they didn't exist in medieval times. Poor suckers lol.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[afroide]

Cavalry combat has never been about going toe to toe (although it still wouldn't be THAT easy).

There are 2 different possible uses of cavalry

1) The added mobility of the horses allowing for skirmishing/harrassment tactics

2) Leveraging the weight of the horse/rider/armor/. THIS is the reason heavy cavalry was so feared. When you get that much weight moving at a gallop it has VERY LITTLE to do with weapons. Picture a line of infantry trying to stand in the path of an avalanche. If you think in those terms, then you'll hopefully realize the proper use and effectiveness of heavy cavalry - It's for dispersing enemy formations and crushing it's soldiers with sheer momentum. Oddly enough, M:TW doesn't seem to do a very accurate job of representing this, but I suppose it's approximated... I'd still like to see a wedge of lancers split a line of peasants in 2 without losing momentum (from a sheer aesthetics and entertainment point of view).

[kanett]

Quote[/b] (afroide @ Jan. 19 2004,17:58)]And about the stopped horse scenario, the whole point of a cavalry charge was to break through. There was never supposed to be any stalling for exactly the reasons you say. It would have been doomed.
Alright, that was what I thought.
-

I wonder so much how they could train horse/elephant to be so brave to run into line of armed men. This animals' loyalty is very interesting. I would love to breed one.

[CBR]

There are training manuals from 16th-17th century that explains how it apparently was done.

Horses learned that shouting men with long pointy sticks were not dangerous and always moved away when a horse charged them. In modern times police horses are trained in the same way really. Firecrackers, men throwing tennis balls at them and shouting.

So if a rider wanted to charge head-on into a formation a horse would most likely do it. The problem is of course what happened when the infantry didn't panic and horses crashed into the men.

If the men were not in a very tight formation and had no long sticks then the horse would most likely just run down any man in that was so unfortunate to stand in its way.

If they were prepared and stood shoulder to shoulder, in the typical formation that infantry would use to receive a cavalry charge back then, and ready with spears (with at least the front rank jamming their spear-butts into the ground)then my guess is that cavalry could get heavy losses.

It would probably be the rider that saw it would be suicide and stop the horse as the horse would just think the men would move away as it they always did in training.

Apparently there is one 16th century story of a rider whose horse survived the impact against one pikeblock only to go after next pikeblock and the rider couldn't stop the horse and had to jump off it. It was presumed dead but they found it alive after the battle. It had 2 pike wounds and 20 sword wounds to its head. It apparently hated swords after that and would attack any sword armed man on sight. Sure it survived but it might not have been suitable as a warhorse anymore as it knew what to expect and reacted by being very aggressive.

I don't know if that is a typical reaction from a warhorse when it faced the realities of enemy foot soldiers.


CBR

[Voigtkampf]

Nice compilation of info, CBR.

As for all horses being so, the answer is, to my reading experience, since I only had to deal with normal horses that pull wagons or plan vanilla horses that I was riding, is that the warhorses were mostly so. They were nearly useless in normal circumstances, they loved to bite and kick and were, speaking in psychological terms, downright neurotic and extremely violent. The loyalty of the horse is not of much importance, the warhorses just wanted to hurt someone and get their share of adrenaline.

Anyone who deals with horses knows how difficult they can be, even if they are normally treated and cared for, and there is always a trace of insanity in their eyes. My father especially told me of one of the horses (well, it was a she, but I forgot the exact English word for a female horse…) they had when he was younger, which found an exquisite pleasure in biting people in the head. There you go and peacefully feed the animals, forget yourself and don't pay attention for a moment and suddenly that beast yawns and has your head between its teeth, my father said, scratching his head absent mindedly while reminiscing. That beast was vile and crazed to the bone.

[gaelic cowboy]

Just kill the driver of the elephant and it will probally do more damage to it own side. Or failing that a little mouse on a piece of string. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Gregoshi]

Don't forget the banana peel tactic. Works every time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[Mummer]

I know I would run if 30 massive creatures I have never seen before with massive horns sticking out from the mouth and a horrific noise coming out from them were charging towards me.

There were two main purposes of war elephants; 1) They always scare the crap out of horses, same principle as cammels, except in antiquity, they weren't as worried about the horses, so the other reason would be more important, 2) They scare the crap out of anything or anybody else who were unused to them, they weren't really all that great in actual melee, but they were certainly useful because of their appearance and size.

They were most useful against tight formations, like the Greeks used, because even though they weren't great in a direct melee, they were great at breaking formations, thus their usefullness against the phylanx.

[Sulla]

Three words

Elephants - Burning pigs

regards Sulla

[Sulla]

Another sentence

Cavalry - Big a$$ Pikes

regards Sulla

Or the occasionel longbow offcourse ;)

[Knight_Yellow]

Guy takes sword about 30-40 in length and jumps infront of a war horse and swipes.

the blade hardly makes any real effect on the horse and it stamps on the guys head untill he stops moving.


The guys pal seeing an elephant does the same, the sword merely stops dead against the several inch thick hide of the beast and it stomps on him till he stops moving.



This is not hollywood where good old willy wallace takes down a 100 men on horse and shoots bolts of lightning out his arse at the elephants.

Even if the guy somehoe hacked the leg of a horse it would still be moving quick and would still crush him, even if he jumped out the way like some guy from the matrix the horsemans 200 companions would have something to say about said limbless horse.


if your alone and a horse/elephant is charging you the ONLY way to survive is to have a bloody great big Gun.

even pikes were a poor match for elephants who were most oftenly killed by extensive laserations and arrow wounds.

[martyn]

well if only all those guys killed by cavalry had known they just had to crouch down and chop a leg how different history might have been. Think all the weaknesses and tactics have probably been sussed after 3000 + years.....ummm and your cunning plan ain't one thats in any book...strange that ;)
regards martyn

[*Ringo*]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ Jan. 24 2004,21:19)]Apparently there is one 16th century story of a rider whose horse survived the impact against one pikeblock only to go after next pikeblock and the rider couldn't stop the horse and had to jump off it. It was presumed dead but they found it alive after the battle. It had 2 pike wounds and 20 sword wounds to its head. It apparently hated swords after that and would attack any sword armed man on sight. Sure it survived but it might not have been suitable as a warhorse anymore as it knew what to expect and reacted by being very aggressive.
Where do you get such wonderful information??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Cheers,

*Ringo*

[CBR]

I found that one on some of the Yahoo groups. Think its mentioned in several posts.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientTactics/message/942

In a biography of Bayard, “the
knight without reproach”, by his faithful servant [the faithful servant
didn’t give his name but his biography is accepted as having been
written by someone very close to Bayard] he wrote of an event which
occurred at Navarra (I believe). French gendarmes charged Swiss pikemen
(there doesn’t come a more steady infantry than Swiss pikes). Bayard
charged clear through the pike unit. However, part way through Bayard
could no longer control his mount. It had taken the bit and couldn’t be
controlled. Having ridden clear through one pike unit, the horse’s
fierceness was so great that it about to charge another pike unit. Not
willing to take on the Swiss again with a horse he couldn’t control,
Bayard slipped from the saddle and made his way back to the French.

Bayard’s horse not only attacked the Swiss pike unit, drove clear
through the unit, but was so enraged that it was about to attack
another pike unit. After the battle, Bayard’s horse was left for dead
on the battlefield. It had two severe pike wounds in it’s flank and
more than 20 sword wounds on it’s head. However, in the morning, it was
found quietly grazing. After this, it hated swords. He would go after
any man holding a sword. The warhorse is weapon in itself.


Other excellent groups are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancmed for ancient and medieval warfare.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/REMPAS for Renaissance warfare.

Think you have to register to read posts there. Just remember to set Message Delivery to No Email and do the reading on web. Otherwise you might end up getting loads of emails.


CBR

[Math Mathonwy]

Quote[/b] (Phatose @ Jan. 18 2004,14:06)]...those better be some big caltrops if an elephant is gonna even notice em, much less be slowed by them.
they did use caltrops against elephants, they where changed together, and just slung across the battlefield. The romans used little wooden stakes with sharp iron barbs on the end which they hammered into the ground.