Longbows and axes....

[Leet Eriksson]

I noticed Longbows had axes,well it was sometime ago,but it made me think,they are an archer unit,whats the use of axes?there attack is not great to start with anyway...even the +2 bonus against armour doesn't help,unless you use them in the rear,that is if the unit you used to pin down the enemy does'nt rout first....

[torsoboy]

In my experience they are absolutely crap against infantry, but can hurt knights like woodmen can. They of course do not hold a candle to horse powered charges of wooden stakes.

[mercian billman]

I find that longbows do well against infantry. After I run out of arrows I sometimes will charge them straight at the enemy formation. Usually the enemy will be pretty depleted so the longbows will be able to hold their own.

[CBR]

They have same attack as feudal men at arms and if fighting a normal armoured enemy (armour 3-4) they would have +1 attack so longbows would have a total attack value like chivalric men at arms. I wouldnt consider that to be weak.

Everything is relative. They are not the best in melee but neither are they the worst.

I can send them frontally at enemy standard archers/crossbows to defeat them instead of having a missile duel that would waste the Longbows potiential. And they work reasonable well in doing flank/rear attacks on stronger but already engaged enemy foot.


CBR

[mercian billman]

I've managed to rout units of chivalric foot kngihts with longbows. I remember one battle in which the Germans attacked me with an army of about 1500, against my army of mostly longbows, CMAA, and Chivalric seargents.

They sent their CFK (2 units) to lead the charge I had 6 longbows, and used 2 squadrons of 3 to target each CFK. One unit of CFK was reduced to 21 men. I sent one unit of longbows out to attack them, and they routed the CFK with few losses. The 2nd unit of CFK was also reduced to about 20 men, and I used 2 units of longbows to, rout them.

[torsoboy]

Must be those Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen then. My longbowmen couldn't beat them mano a mano.

[ichi]

LBs can be tough fighters. One mistake that I see people make in MP is to stretch them out 2 ranks deep. I keep them at least 3 deep all the time, sometimes switching to 4 deep - I even put them in wedge sometimes and push them thru gaps in the line.

When they are shooting I keep em on Hold Form/Hold Pos, but switch to Engage-at-Will when they start fighting.

Give em armor and a little valor and they are a good hybrid -excellent shooters and decent fighters.

ichi

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Must be those Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen then. My longbowmen couldn't beat them mano a mano.
Of course not. Since they can't face each other... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen are from VI campaign and LB from Medieval Campaign. Or have you MODed the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[FoundationII]

any longbow unit can face a infantry unit 1 vs 1, the longbows will deplete the ranks of the infantry, the infantry lost a big deal of morale and will be more tired, they will smach in the longbow their ranks with only half their morale and strength, if the longbows start charging too the infantry will be dog food.

[torsoboy]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 19 2004,14:45)]
Quote[/b] ]Must be those Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen then. My longbowmen couldn't beat them mano a mano.
Of course not. Since they can't face each other... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen are from VI campaign and LB from Medieval Campaign. Or have you MODed the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Wes did. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

I just used his MedMod.

[The_678]

Sometimes it's great to see a group of LB's that have just run out of ammo and send them down to whoever they were shooting at to finish them off. It just looks great to me.

YAY I'm a knight now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Quokka]

Quote[/b] (torsoboy @ Jan. 19 2004,06:10)]Must be those Bonnachts and Irish Dartmen then. My longbowmen couldn't beat them mano a mano.
This is your problem if you have the MedMod installed.

Charge/Attack/Defence/Armour

Longbowmen stats: 1/1*/-1/2
Bonnachts: 4/3/-1/1, Sm Shield
Irish Dartmen: 3/3/0/1, 2 supporting ranks

The longbowmen have had their attack rating lowered compared to vanilla MTW and the Bonnachts and Dartmen aren't wearing any armour for the AP bonus to affect. At the same time the Bonnachts and Dartmen have good and excellent attack ratings. In melee the Longbowmen will get chewed up quickly.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]One mistake that I see people make in MP is to stretch them out 2 ranks deep. I keep them at least 3 deep all the time, sometimes switching to 4 deep - I even put them in wedge sometimes and push them thru gaps in the line.

Mistake nothing... 2 ranks for firing and 4 ranks for fighting... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Aelwyn]

I think they have something like att 7 on v3, is that correct? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif Plus the ap bonus makes them a nice unit for flanking. They shouldn't be used head on to take on FMAA and such, but they are annoying to face in a missle battle, and have good att and morale.

[hoom]

I learnt about the danger posed by the longbows' axe the hard way...

Attacking a castle with only a couple of depleted units one of which was a longbow.
'I know what I'll do' I thought, 'after I've knocked down some walls I'll charge in with my generals' royal knights & mop them up quickly'

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
'erk why aren't those longbows dying?'

'omg, my knights are getting mauled'
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif
'nevermind, they'll kill those longbows soon'

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

'argh, the bastards killed my beautiful general'
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Jan. 19 2004,02:17)]LBs can be tough fighters. One mistake that I see people make in MP is to stretch them out 2 ranks deep. I keep them at least 3 deep all the time, sometimes switching to 4 deep - I even put them in wedge sometimes and push them thru gaps in the line.

When they are shooting I keep em on Hold Form/Hold Pos, but switch to Engage-at-Will when they start fighting.

Give em armor and a little valor and they are a good hybrid -excellent shooters and decent fighters.

ichi
Same here,longbows are the only unit aside from janissary archers who can shoot from 3 ranks and not 2.

[Mummer]

Last resort, or if I need a little boost at a critical point in the battle line, I send in my archers, who are probably grumbling the entire way.

[Beirut]

I've found my LB to be not just battle winners, but war winners. I put seven or eight units of archers in wedges behind the same number of defensive soldiers and just mow the **** out of most anything that comes at me. Have to manuevre a bit, but with eight or nine hundred arrows in flight at a time, the enemy gets cut up very fast.

(Mind you, I did increase the arrow count for each man to 50, up from 24 or so.)

[katank]

I think that upping ammo for archers is kinda OP as the AI has tough enough time taking out massed archers with spear wall protection as it is.

Besides, the longbows are long range and do have some great AP melee so they are really mauling machines.

I really love longbows and actually beat a campaign with using only longbows and billmen in addition to RKs that I get from royals. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[ShadesWolf]

I believe the axe is based on historical accuracy. Most English lowbowmen had a second hand to hand weapon, to use when either the arrows had run out or to finish an enemy off. I beielve this is all they are doing by adding the axe to the unit as a second weapon.

If you have enough men an axe charge can be quite useful, in a cav charge combination. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ Mar. 30 2004,23:51)]I believe the axe is based on historical accuracy. Most English lowbowmen had a second hand to hand weapon, to use when either the arrows had run out or to finish an enemy off. I beielve this is all they are doing by adding the axe to the unit as a second weapon.
You're right. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Fragony]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ Jan. 23 2004,12:35)]
Quote[/b] (ichi @ Jan. 19 2004,02:17)]LBs can be tough fighters. One mistake that I see people make in MP is to stretch them out 2 ranks deep. I keep them at least 3 deep all the time, sometimes switching to 4 deep - I even put them in wedge sometimes and push them thru gaps in the line.

When they are shooting I keep em on Hold Form/Hold Pos, but switch to Engage-at-Will when they start fighting.

Give em armor and a little valor and they are a good hybrid -excellent shooters and decent fighters.

ichi
Same here,longbows are the only unit aside from janissary archers who can shoot from 3 ranks and not 2.
So the janisary achers have something going for them after all, I never understood why some people like them. I have to try this on those cursed Egyptian camals

[CBR]

And longbows are actually classed as using a mace not an axe. If they used an axe they would have one one more attack and one more defense but couldnt use their small shield: overall effect +1 attack.

In the unit prod file is says AXE but that is the same as polearm and axe units. The game use axe sound for these 3 weapons.


CBR

[VikingHorde]

They are Archers, so I only use them as a last resort.

[katank]

yep, in real life I believe they either had hammer/mace and dagger or sword and buckler but not axe

[LordKhaine]

If I recall one reason they were fairly good in close combat was because they didn't want to be caught by the French as a longbowman. Since the French would cut off the two fingers of captured bowmen to stop them ever firing a longbow again. If you were captured while fighting in close combat you'd likely be mistaken for a footsoldier. At least that's what I remember reading somewhere.

[Nowake]

I wonder hy would they keep them alive at all? for ransom? i don't think anyone would've paid for them, they were yeomen at best.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

i'd heard somewhere that english longbowmen used Falchions, which are basically one edged concussion 'swords' for bashing opponents into submission - which were popular in later centuries when plate armour made it much harder to penetrate opponents unless you had armour-piercing weapons such as polearms.

[makkyo]

I'd try skirmishing w/ lowgbows, then when all are out I charge w/ axes and flank with the arrowless archers (saved me more than once)

[Apocalyp$e]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 31 2004,18:35)]yep, in real life I believe they either had hammer/mace and dagger or sword and buckler but not axe
Well to be honest, they would be armed with all sorts of odds and ends, axes are just as appropriate as anything else...

[Mablung]

Often they would pick up weapons dropped on the battlefield.