Small vs Huge

[kiwitt]

I normally use Huge Units, but one problem, I have with this is that the "Royal Knights" are never bigger than 20 Units.

Have now thought of using small units, thereby making these units more powerful in comparison to other units.

This would also reduce my costs of support for my other units, but make my battles shorter.

[The_678]

I always just use default unit size. It's pretty balanced this way and I like how the money is always at a good even number (100, 150, 225 etc...). But If I had to choose huge or small I would choose small because you would still have hue armies because of the units cheapness.

[kiwitt]

Thanks.

I may try small next. I did huge because I could. Fast Graphics Card for more sprites and all that. However, I did not think about the economics of this choice. Default is probably good for balance, something I didn't consider.

[Finn]

I started off on huge because due to graphics driver problems my framerate was abysmal, now i have sorted that out i have moved to huge.

I found that with small, the "limited size" units are far more powerful, royal knights, ghulam bodyguards, hashishin etc, but far prefer it on huge, the battles are far larger and grander in scale and you the unit as a whole seems more tactical, when you have your archers 2 deeps they are wide, and need a large area to swing about in etc

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Default.

I mainly play MP. When you play huge or large unit size, with 4v4 players, you may run into graphic problems and slow framerate / lag, etc.

Small is cute and makes it easier to play around, which is a good thing on small maps, but does limit some units ability; mainly spears and pike which can't take advantage of their rank bonus as much as in default.
On the other hand, no one plays with spears in MP.. So maybe it's not a big deal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Louis,

[Demequis]

Quote[/b] (Finn @ Jan. 20 2004,02:22)]I started off on huge because due to graphics driver problems my framerate was abysmal, now i have sorted that out i have moved to huge.

I found that with small, the "limited size" units are far more powerful, royal knights, ghulam bodyguards, hashishin etc, but far prefer it on huge, the battles are far larger and grander in scale and you the unit as a whole seems more tactical, when you have your archers 2 deeps they are wide, and need a large area to swing about in etc
Might you have an nVidia graphics card perchance? I've got a ti4600 and I think it's a bunch of crap that if I run 2v1 battles my framerate suffers.
How have you sorted out your problems?

Thanks

[kiwitt]

I had a similar problem, but I changed the AGP size in the Video Options to resolve this.

[Finn]

Quote[/b] (Demequis @ Jan. 20 2004,21:07)]
Quote[/b] (Finn @ Jan. 20 2004,02:22)]I started off on huge because due to graphics driver problems my framerate was abysmal, now i have sorted that out i have moved to huge.

I found that with small, the "limited size" units are far more powerful, royal knights, ghulam bodyguards, hashishin etc, but far prefer it on huge, the battles are far larger and grander in scale and you the unit as a whole seems more tactical, when you have your archers 2 deeps they are wide, and need a large area to swing about in etc
Might you have an nVidia graphics card perchance? I've got a ti4600 and I think it's a bunch of crap that if I run 2v1 battles my framerate suffers.
How have you sorted out your problems?

Thanks
Geforce 3

was using the default XP drivers as installed by windowsupdate, installed the detonators drivers off of guru3d.com, went into the options panel and deselected FSAA (seems to be enabled by default???) and since then everything has been dandy, now play at 1024x768 no problems on huge unit size

(athlon MP 1.2gig, 512meg ram + gf3 )

[HawaiianHobbit]

I play with small units because the support cost is less and because my battles are timed and they make them shorter.

[Basileus]

never even tryed huge units cant imagine my self doing it either now.

[David]

I think when army size is on huge, the battle map gets too small. eg: You cant really defend a hill anymore, because your army doesnt fit on it (unless its a very big hill).

[Doug-Thompson]

I switched to huge. Having half or more of your army "waiting their turn" to fight is extremely unrealistic. Very large battles still don't work correctly even with "huge" units.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I switched to huge. Having half or more of your army "waiting their turn" to fight is extremely unrealistic. Very large battles still don't work correctly even with "huge" units.
Although I use Small Unit Size because of a slow CPU, I agree with Doug-Thompson. Real battles are much more like those using Huge Unit Size. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[kiwitt]

A question on Ecomonics ?

1 unit of huge Spearmen (200) costs the same as 2 default spearmen (100). Right ? Therefore if you choose to use small, 4 x small spearmen (50) costs the same as 1 huge spearmen.

However, you do get 4 commanders, and 4 seperate sections on the battlefield, which may improve morale.

[Finn]

Quote[/b] (kiwitt @ Jan. 21 2004,21:41)]A question on Ecomonics ?

1 unit of huge Spearmen (200) costs the same as 2 default spearmen (100). Right ? Therefore if you choose to use small, 4 x small spearmen (50) costs the same as 1 huge spearmen.

However, you do get 4 commanders, and 4 seperate sections on the battlefield, which may improve morale.
but those 4 small spearmen are still 4 out of a maximum of 16 units

what was a 16th of your army is now a quarter of it

[kiwitt]

Finn: I agree. I still play Huge.

However, I had one battle recently, that would of taken over 300 minutes (5 hours) had I not used the speed slider.

[johnnybrigante]

Quote[/b] (David @ Jan. 21 2004,12:18)]I think when army size is on huge, the battle map gets too small. eg: You cant really defend a hill anymore, because your army doesnt fit on it (unless its a very big hill).
i've tried to play with huge units and that's really a major annoyiance (sp?).

plus, my athlon-800mhz/128mb-ram/nvidia-tnt2 can't handle huge units..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif but that's something, well, understandable.

(damn stupid ice-age machine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif )

[kiwitt]

For Huge to play, I have the following.

AthlonXP 1800,512 MB RAM,GeForce 4 Ti4200 64 MB,Windows 2000 SP4,DirectX 9.0b

This costs about NZ$800 now.

[ichi]

Personally, I think too many guys are focused way too much on unit size. Of course, it does make a big difference, but even more critical is how you use the unit size you are playing with.

I know a lot of people who have fun playing with small units, but there are others who have a hard time getting a handle on the bigger ones. Huge units can be more difficult to fit into tight places.

ichi

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Jan. 21 2004,23:22)]I know a lot of people who have fun playing with small units, but there are others who have a hard time getting a handle on the bigger ones. Huge units can be more difficult to fit into tight places.

ichi
I dunno why,but I have a problem in managing huge units,I simply forget where I placed them and stuff like that,things which don't happen on default unit size...

[Obex]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Jan. 21 2004,23:22)]Personally, I think too many guys are focused way too much on unit size. Of course, it does make a big difference, but even more critical is how you use the unit size you are playing with.

I know a lot of people who have fun playing with small units, but there are others who have a hard time getting a handle on the bigger ones. Huge units can be more difficult to fit into tight places.

ichi
Man, thats what i keep telling my girlfriend. She tends to prefer the huge units, like the double sized nubian spearmen.

If someone (presumably this wont pop up in single player) complains about your unit size, tell them its not small, its fun sized.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]She tends to prefer the huge... ...like the double sized nubian...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif ???? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif ???? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif



ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif


I think you should refrase your sentence or pay more attention to your GF and less to the game... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

[PseRamesses]

Default setting. It´s well balanced. But in the beginning I went with the super-duper-humungus size, the sight was amazing on the battlefield.

[The_Emperor]

Personally I tend to play using the Average Unit Size...

Huge Units while impressive looking don't have the flexibility of normal ones, you can't conceal them very well in a small forest for ambush... Huge units of archers you'd never get deployed two rows deep.

My other problem with Huge units is the fact that they take two years to train on the Campaign Map. I'd rather not have to wait that long for one unit of peasants

Anyway its not the size of the unit that matters, its how well you can use it

[*Ringo*]

I like using all sizes really http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif There are advantages and disadvantages of them all. At the moment i'm playing a small English campaign, i've modded foot kinghts and crusader units in; so units like foot knights have more of an impact http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I also play default and large tho, there's nothing like an army consisting of 16 large units to waste a few hours battling http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Regards

*Ringo*

P.S
Quote[/b] ]My other problem with Huge units is the fact that they take two years to train on the Campaign Map. I'd rather not have to wait that long for one unit of peasants
I find this adds a deeper level of planning, you have to guestimate what's going to be needed in a few turns Not always possible with back stabbing allies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif But fun all the same

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Jan. 22 2004,07:24)]My other problem with Huge units is the fact that they take two years to train on the Campaign Map. I'd rather not have to wait that long for one unit of peasants
Using huge units really changes the campaign game.

As mentioned, you get half the normal amount of new leaders. That alone cuts your potential pool of decent governors.

The units take twice as long to build. That requires some pretty serious changes to strategic gameplay.

Yes, smaller units can be more skillfully handled tactically — and allow more flexibility on the strategic map too. However, I repeat my reason for going to huge units. It is extremely unrealistic to have half your army "waiting its turn" to fight.

==========

Playing with huge units forces you to rebuild depleted units. You can rebuild a unit that's half-strength or less in only a year.

Huge units also make militia units more useful. You get 120 men in a militia unit, making one unit of those troops a an effective garrison.

Hiring mercenaries is expensive at normal size. It's a severe expense when 200 spearmen come in that unit, doubling the hiring and maintenance costs.

[The_Emperor]

Good point, I think I'll run a campaign on Huge at some point and see how I go.

[Revenant69]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Jan. 22 2004,08:24)]Anyway its not the size of the unit that matters, its how well you can use it
Hehehe, exactly my thought on the unit size http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Nelson]

I only go with huge units. They look better on the battlefield and provide a greater strategic challenge.

Quantity has a quality all its' own.

[Mummer]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Jan. 22 2004,08:24)]Anyway its not the size of the unit that matters, its how well you can use it
Drats I was about to make the same comment, you interloper http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I use Huge, although with the MedMod I have to use Large, which bummed me out at first, but I got used to it. I think I like large the best now, anyway.

[hoom]

I generally prefer huge but I have been playing with normal lately.

The whole two turns to build bit means you have to be much more careful with what you do on the strategic level since it is much harder to replace lost units.
It certainly means you make good use of retraining since you can go from a single chiv sergeant to 200 chiv sergeants in a single turn rather than build a new unit over 2 turns.

The thing that confuses me is that the 20 strong royal knight unit is not actually constant, since various factions get 80 strong 'royal bodyguard' units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Huge makes it hard to find a hill to defend on but that is rather countered by the generally increased power of the missile units (4 archers has effectively the same firepower as 8 normal size...).
The damage that 6 huge units of arbs can do is amazing.
Generally spears are much stronger since they can easily keep up their rank bonus & still spread wide to provide an impenatrable wall.

Cannon are both weaker & stronger since it is easier to hit a huge unit but any damage done is proportionately less.

Due to the 'total war unit guide' I have discovered that militia sergeants are much more powerful in huge than in normal.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (arrrse @ Jan. 24 2004,06:54)]The thing that confuses me is that the 20 strong royal knight unit is not actually constant, since various factions get 80 strong 'royal bodyguard' units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Huge makes it hard to find a hill to defend on but that is rather countered by the generally increased power of the missile units (4 archers has effectively the same firepower as 8 normal size...).
The damage that 6 huge units of arbs can do is amazing.
Generally spears are much stronger since they can easily keep up their rank bonus & still spread wide to provide an impenatrable wall...

Due to the 'total war unit guide' I have discovered that militia sergeants are much more powerful in huge than in normal.
Being attacked by an 80-strong unit of Hospitallers was scary.

All the comments about archers and spears is true, and so is the observation about militia. I never build peasant units any more. Militia all the way.

==========================

I'd think Vikings, Woodsmen and Slavic warriors are all effective as "huge" units.

[Ludens]

Question: are huge units twice as effective as garrison compared to normal units?

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Jan. 26 2004,11:27)]Question: are huge units twice as effective as garrison compared to normal units?
As far as I know. One huge unit is just as effective as two normal ones for garrison duty, but there's no added bonus that I'm aware of.

[kiwitt]

At the end of a campaign to defeat a faction, I send all my remaining partial units to one province and merge them. What is left over I move to my retraining provinces.

What I have noticed in merging, is if you have a no-armor unit merged with a +1,+2,+3,+4 unit you get the old unit upgraded automatically. You have to be careful to place the lessor unit onto the better unit and not vice versa.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ Jan. 26 2004,19:49)]
Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Jan. 26 2004,11:27)]Question: are huge units twice as effective as garrison compared to normal units?
As far as I know. One huge unit is just as effective as two normal ones for garrison duty, but there's no added bonus that I'm aware of.
Thank you. That was what I wanted to know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[hoom]

One unit that is 60 in normal size is 120 in huge, so a single militia or archer unit makes a decent garrison.
If you get all creative, you can have a nice fairly ballanced reserve army of archers, spears & militia as garrisons.

[squippy]

I only play on huge. Another aspect that has not been mentioned so far is that the 2-year build time poses another risk: that your build can be interrupted if an enemy occupies the provinces. This also changes the strategic game, as it can be resource-risky to build in a threatened province.

I LOVE huge units. Having not played on other sizes, I am not sure what trouble people are having with hills; I have no problem forming up on or around a hill. Even then, I don't like to be too compressed on the crown of a hill as you can still be surrounded and it hampers deployment and can get you into all sorts of trouble, so most deployments will be with a core on the hill and a skirmish/strike wing off the hill or behind it.

I've not had much trouble hiding units in forests either. OK, you do need more forest about, and this makes it all slightly more obvious, but I've certainly pulled off perfectly succesful ambushes with hidden units.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (squippy @ Jan. 28 2004,05:24)]I've not had much trouble hiding units in forests either. OK, you do need more forest about, and this makes it all slightly more obvious, but I've certainly pulled off perfectly successful ambushes with hidden units.
Here's a thought: If you have a high-valor unit that has taken some casualties, don't be in a big hurry to rebuild it.

I'd rather have 120 good infantry that I couldn't hide than 60 that I could, but other players might find it worthwhile to have a few half-strength high-valor units in their army.

If the terrain allows, put them in ambush. If the terrain doesn't allow, leave them in your reinforcement pool.

Also, there's a Muslim unit that can hide in the open -- whatever size it is. Having 120 Hashishin jump up behind you must be fun.

Finally, the computer has as much trouble hiding huge units as you do.

[Kristaps]

As mentioned before, it's the AI that runs into problems with huge units... It seems, the comp just cannot get the calculations right and bankrupts itself due to high unit maintenance costs :( With the huge size, I practically never saw an AI faction upgrade their cities... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

[hoom]

Quote[/b] ]I am not sure what trouble people are having with hills Well, in normal size, that little bump in the middle of your huge army is actually a sizeable hill that you can fit your whole army on & staunchly defend.

[Beirut]

Huge.

Looks better. Not much use in having a war against France is there's only a hundred guys on each side. That's just a soccer brawl.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ Jan. 28 2004,11:17)]As mentioned before, it's the AI that runs into problems with huge units... It seems, the comp just cannot get the calculations right and bankrupts itself due to the high maintenance costs :( With the huge size, I practically never saw an AI faction upgrade their cities... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif
That's interesting, although I don't think it's been mentioned before on this particular thread.

I haven't noticed any such problem, but maybe I'm just careless.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[hoom]

Hmm could be right actually.

[Herodotus]

I think the AI becomes more capable in battle though (on huge) because it limits the human players micromaging abilities. I have frequently lost battles since I switched to huge, battles that I probably would have won on default size. And i am thoroughly enjoying it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The_Emperor]

The best thing I noticed about "Huge" is that it makes getting the Butcher Vice in Campaign a lot easier... racking up over 1,000 prisoners aint so hard anymore.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ Jan. 28 2004,11:17)]As mentioned before, it's the AI that runs into problems with huge units... It seems, the comp just cannot get the calculations right and bankrupts itself due to high unit maintenance costs :( With the huge size, I practically never saw an AI faction upgrade their cities... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif
I've been on the lookout for this problem and haven't seen any sign of it. The whole map is visable by either ships or agents. Perhaps it was a much bigger problem earlier, when most of the map was out of my sight.

[hoom]

Herodotus, I think I have lost more battles on normal size.
But then, my huge (unit size not numbers of units), late Aragonese garrison did just get munched by the combined forces of the Polish & Hungarians & that was with a good tall hill to defend...