Useless Archers

[kawligia]

I've tried to use archers in my armies but it just doesn't seem to work out. I will kill 10x as many men and rout them just as fast...if not faster with an extra meele unit than I will with a unit of archers. Plus, you need to hold back another unit to protect them or the cavalry will rush around the fray and end their already pointless existence.

So not only are they taking up space on the field that could be better used with other troops, they need ANOTHER unit to protect their sorry butts or become cavalry fodder.

And in the best case scenario where there are no troops available to eat them up b/c they are all engaged, they can flank and fire killing your men at the same time. BUT, I find that I've almost routed the army anyway by the time they are in position. If I would have used some extra cavalry instead I could have flanked them much sooner, routed them much sooner and have the cavalry there to herd up the runners.

I think the problem is that their range and accuracy are pathetic. They really should be able to fire much farther and hit more often. It would be more true to life then if you ask me. When an enemy is marching towards you and finally get within range it is only a matter of seconds before they are up in your face. That is rediculous, they are firing arrows with bows not throwing them like rocks Plus if 60 archers fired into a group of 100 soldiers I guarantee, shield or no shield, more than one or two will be killed in each volley

Now what I DO like are horse missle units. They can be left on skirmish and harrass units all day long. When they do, it ties up all the units leaving fewer in the main fight, which means I have a numbers advantage and I can flank and route them much easier. Plus I get the kills with the mounted missle units and don;t really loose any of them, even though the kills aren't why I like them, its the fact that they tie up and basically remove from the fight miltiple units.


Anyway, maybe there is something I am just missing with archers, if so, please enlighten me.

p.s. I'm not talking about the English-specific Longbows. I know they are a little bit better, but I'm talking about the regular archers, desert archers, etc.

[el_slapper]

They have their use.

1st, even if they kill less, the weakened enemies will collapse earlier. That's a huge advantage, the morale effect.

2nd, they kill high-valour units as well as low valour one 4 archer units focusing on one single enemy unit will QUICKLY deplete it & make it flee. Auto-fire is useful in some circumstances, but the best results are when you focus one one unit, the the next, then the next..... Not that much kills, but the enemy is disorganized even before the melee.

Of course, later when armor gets stronger, their usefulness decreases.......

[kiwitt]

In Defence, Archers are really powerful.

I use strong morale spearmen on the frontline, and calvary on the flanks and archers in the centre.

My first lot of reserves are archers, so when my current ones run out of ammo, I swap them out for new ones. When the enemy has finally started to retreat, I chase with the calvary.

[Dillinger]

The only archers that suck are the actual 'archer' unit. All the other ones either have armor piercing, OK attack, OK defence, or are fast. All archers should be fast, but oh well.

[Rowan11088]

I understand sometimes archers are very frustrating, but at times they really shine. The first thing I would say is, yes, normal archers kinda suck, but anything other than normal archers or desert archers are much better. Plus, a height advantage is really crucial to archer use. Even in real life range is dramatically reduced without some height advantage, because you then have to aim in an arc to avoid just hitting the ground, thus range goes down along with accuracy and power. If you're on completely flat ground archers won't be nearly as useful until, as you said, the enemy gets very close, and by then it's a bit late. If you want to use archers on flat ground bring arbs or crossbows, or use skirmishers so you can get a few volleys in, charge into the melee, rout the enemy, then fire more volleys into their rear or into the next incoming unit.

[The_678]

I don't really like normal archers either

[ichi]

You don't say how you use em. I agree with the idea that 'vanilla'archers are pretty weak, and that pavs and cav archers are better. Of course the Bulgarian Brigands, the Genoese Sailors, English LBs and Muslim hybrids also beat basic archers also.

I love archers in small SP battles where the AI doesn't have many archers. Get an enemy unit to chase a unit of archers, get another unit of archers behind and make an arrow sandwich. Frequently get units to rout without losing a single archer.

In large (16+ units) SP defensive battles use the archers to kill enemy archers and then when melee begins, put the archers behind the spear/infantry line. This increases rate of kill and also reduces enemy unit morale. When they run out of ammo put 'em on wedge and send thru gaps in the line or around the flank.

In very large offensive battles in SP I either send archers en masse as my first wave - shoot the enemy and let 'em chase my archers off (or run out of ammo) then bring on the fighters - just don't use any, rush the enemy with 16 cav and inf.

In MP vanilla archers are used primarily in Early Period, as Pavs are available in High and Late. I take a couple of archers in Early because they are cheap - for 10K florins you really can't afford 16 great fighters (prob someone disagrees - please show me) so get 2-3 archers and save florins for better infantry or cav.

You need some missile troops in MP 3v3 or 4v4 team games, unless you all plan to rush.

slapper makes a very important point - use em to kill high valor troops.

ichi

[katar]

one unit of archers is just a nuisance, three or four can land you in a world of pain.

don`t bother with skirmish/engage at will, micromanage them to get the best out of them.

disable fire at will, wastes ammo.

concentrate several units of archers at one time on a single target, handy if want to decimate that group of knights heading straight towards you.

avoid archer on archer duels when possible, you waste ammo on cheap units that can taken out with a well timed cavalry charge, go for enemy units with good melee and valour ratings.

don`t forget to kill enemy generals (unless they lower the enemies morale (good runner vice, etc))

get a height advantage whenever possible.

if you are going to bring archers onto the field, bring at least three of them, if you want to kill the enemy at range three will give you a reasonable punch (even the vanilla ones).

when defending on a hill/mountain side, put your archers behind your spearmen, let the spearmen soak up incomng fire (the enemy archers are firing uphill, causes fewer casulties, so that doesn`t help them at all).


make your defence lines short in length , say you have a defence line consisting of three spear units four men deep with six archer units in two lines of three units behind them.
E.G.
A A A
A A A
S S S

if the enemy attack at one corner of the line, you might only be able to bring four of your six archer units to fire on the attackers at that corner.

if you change the frontage to three spearman units EIGHT men deep (shortening your frontage), with THREE lines of TWO units then ALL six of your archer units will be able to target any enemy attacking your spearmen...
E.G.
A A
A A
A A
S S S

this will decrease the number of units able to fire out to maximum range at one time, but increases their mutual support at close range.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[fruitfly]

Having archer units ranked behind each other like katar descirbed makes them incredibly powerful on defence.

I tend to favour having a short front and archers 2-3 units deep behind as this gives you a much greater concentration of fire. Set them to hold position and turn off fire at will as micromanaging them yourself greatly increases their effectiveness.

When the enemy starts to advance, the first rank of archers will soften them up, the second will really start to hurt them and by the time the third start to fire the unit targeted is ready to rout.

Defending a bridge without hordes of archers is a complete waste of an opportunity to destroy the enemy on the cheap as well.

Vanilla archers are great in early when troops don't have that much armour, but should be replaced by pavs when those become available. 4-6 units of those will decimate any high valour unit heading your way without taking any casualties themselves meaning that once you've paid to train them they're quite cheap troops to bulk up armies with as they don't need replacing.

[PseRamesses]

Archers are so useful in decimating advancing troops, morale and let´s you be in charge of battlefield development. In early I have 8 arc and 8 foot - no cav.

F A A F
A A
A A
A A
F F FF F F

This looks a bit funny but I click and drag each archer unit to a dubbelrow loose formation so the distance to the rear is not long. The two foot-units in fron on each flank is there to hold rushes from the enemy. I also put my archers on "hold formation, hold position" so that they don´t turn clockwise if firing on units to the right or left which keeps them in place. The only frustrating part is them moving around alot because the area is tight with troops. If I get line-rushed all over I pull back the first two lines of archers while quickly advancing the rear foot-line - no cav in the world can catch up with that and the 4 archers in the rear can still decrease morale on rushing troops. In most games I score 6-8 kills for each loss although I don´t use spears, cavs, art in early.
Only when I reach Horsebreeders guild I usually get some good cavs. Only exception to this is the English provinces in France where I on erly builds hordes of hobilars and charges roght through the froggies lines.

When good cav arrives I seem to go with the majority of players like this:

C AAAAAA C
FFFFFFFF

Well, defesively archers rocks positioned on a strtegic hilltop. But I would like to replace them when they run out of ammo. I NEVER let them melee.

[chilling]

Try attacking a bridge without any archer units.


That'll show you their worth.

[The_Emperor]

The argument for having archers is good because of one simple factor, they can inflict free casualties on your enemy before your guys have even drawn their swords

I did a battle online a while back when I foolishly chose to go for an infantry heavy Byzantine army in MP. I only had two units of crossbows as archers and the rest was Byz infantry with Four Cavalry units and Four Varangian guard.

The battle didn't go so well as my enemy had three Pav Crossbows and two other units of Genoese sailors, my Byz infantry advanced and started taking heavy fire then the lines crashed into each other.

After a brief battle with the Italian infantry and feudal men at arms the Byz infantry was routed, I thought the battle was lost but I stuck with it and committed the Varangian Guard into the fray...

The Italian knights defeated my Cav (and killed my general) & chased off the remaining routers. However my units rallied and smashed down their general, before long the Varangian guard routed the main body of the italian army with the help of some Lancers that I had rallied.

However when it came down to it the surviving enemy troops (who were chasing my guys off) regrouped and advanced to my survivors who were scattered across the map by now.

Defeat was certain at that point. I had outnumbered my enemy but his archers did enough damage to my men so that when the close combat came about, I lost.

Frankly it was only the power of the Varangian guard reserves I had that prevented me from having a total disaster.

Do not neglect the power of archers

[Jazzman]

Gotta have several archer units when on defense, esp. if enemy is cav or camel heavy. last night i'm HRE defending my Crusade-gained Tripoli for the umpteenth time against combined Egypt and turk forces, 2000+ of them vs. 800 of me. got two archer and two turcopole units up on a small ridge and my foot and cav protected behind in woods. the infidels send several units of camel and armenian heavy cav to break up my archers and they get slammed in a hail of arrows and break and retreat each time, the camels especially got slammed. i had lost only a handful of men to their stray arrows and decimated their cav ability. when they finally sent their foot soldiers in, all my men were fresh and i sent the whole lot led by teutonic knights smashing into them, they shortly turned and fled, and both of their generals, including egyptian 8 star general (on camel) was slain. when enemy has mounted archers you need some archers of your own or they will just sit back and slowly pick you off (see Golden horde).

[PrinceBrobex]

Three units of archers make mincemeat of early royal knights. Which can help if you're in the early game and someone has an insane amount of princes.

[kawligia]

Well it sounds as if they would be nice when on defence and on a hill and when you have a few units of them. I'll have to do some custom battles and see how I do with some archers vs. some extra cavalry and infantry.

Maybe it's because I never play defensive battles. I build only attacking armies and when invaded, I retreat to the castle and counterattack next turn with my regular armies.

I also take africa and the middle east first so by the time I'm reafy to attack europe I have enough money to afford to keep every provence not accessable by sea full of troops as I push the wall forward.

And I've never played multiplayer before....but I would like to.

[fruitfly]

Quote[/b] (kawligia @ Jan. 22 2004,18:49)]Maybe it's because I never play defensive battles. I build only attacking armies and when invaded, I retreat to the castle and counterattack next turn with my regular armies.
I find defensive battles tend to make life much easier in terms of getting a highly favourable kills:losses ratio.

If you manage to provoke an enemy into attacking you, decimate their army during a defensive battle and then go on the offensive immediately before they've had a chance to regroup/reinforce you can do them some serious damage whilst taking minimal casualties yourself.

[katar]

fight defencively and you get to choose the terrain and dictate how the battle goes from the very start.

a major bonus if you get to put your troops in a spot the will give them as many benefits as possible and really tax the enemy units before they even get near you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[hoom]

Yes, on the attack you only want a couple of missile units tops and then only really as a reserve for defence against counter attack.
Of course, there are some radical (though not necessarily useful) tactics where many missile units are used in an attacking army.

Missiles are as said, very handy in defence with at least 3 units set up so they can all fire against a single unit & preferably from a hill.
6 units of arbalesters properly set up & defended on a mountainside is a fearsome prospect to go up against indeed.

Base archers are generally best used against lightly armoured units like militia, peasantry (though thats mostly a waste of ammo) and light cavalry but they can do vital damage (a few kills + some demoralisation) to strong infantry/cavalry.

PseRamesses, dude you need to try using some light cavalry in early (just 1 or 2 units), it is well worth it just to chase down routers & they can save your bacon flanking too.

[Servius]

yeah, some general rules of archer usage I find helpful...

a) keep them in ranks of 3, or 4 if on a steep incline.

b) put them on Hold Possition and Hold Formation. This keeps them from wasting time turning their entire formation every time I order them to change targets and keeps them from screwing up my foot formations

c) try to get non-vanila archers. Anything that gives them a valor bonus increases accuracy, so kill rate

d) always bring 3-4 units of archers

e) make sure you have them attack vulnerable units. Just as you don't use spearmen to attack swordmen, don't use archers to attack spearmen. Have them fire at the cav, units without shields and/or low armor. Concentrated fire (from multiple units of archers on 1 nme unit) is key.

f) ALWAYS try to get them on a hill. They fire farther/sooner/longer and each arrow has a higher chance to kill when it lands.

g) often times, if you fire at units, they'll change their formation to Loose to lessen the danger from your arrows, even spearmen do this. When they do, if they're close enough, charge them with almost any kind of unit, of course cav or swords are best. When nme units are in Loose formation their defense goes WAY down, and so does their morale. If you charge them when they're in Loose formation, they will rout almost immediately.

The most effective version of the above tactic is to put your cav in Wedge formation and order them to run to a point behind the nme unit in Loose. The AI will close the ranks back up if you order an attack on its unit, but if you just tell your cav to charge in a line that goes THROUGH the nme unit, it won't close ranks, at least not as likely. I've several times seen a cavalry unit in Wedge slam into a spear unit in Loose and cut them right in half. Needless to say, the spear were goners.

h) Archers make pretty decent light infantry in woods. They are light and nimble, which gives them an advantage in woodlands over spear and cav units. If you can use a spear unit or something to pin another unit down in woodlands, since your archers are useless firing into the trees, have them charge the flank or rear of the nme unit. It's a little sloppy but it works.

i) Lastly, 6 archer units and 2 spear units in defensive bridge battles are FAR more effective than the other way around. The nme can usually pack up to 3 units onto a bridge at once. 4-6 archer units firing sheets of arrows onto that bridge, especially if firing at the flanks of the bridge, can wipe attacking armies. It is SO much fun to watch too.

[Myrano]

As far as fighting on the defensive goes:
When you're in the camp. game and you have thousands of troops spread through a few provinces, and your enemy likewise has thousands of troops spread through his provinces, it is best to pick one enemy province there and attack it with everything. The enemy will retreat to the castle, and next turn they will send their thousands of troops into that province. Thus, you are on the defense, a much easier battle to win

[Aleksandr Nevsky]

On the subject,

What is the point of Bulgarian Brigands in SP campaign? They require a Master Bowyer The few factions that can get them can train better or just as good missile units before them...I understand that they are mostly Mercenary Units, but still...a master bowyer??

Byzantines can get Trebizond archers that in my opinion can tear apart alot of stuff in the early era (do they really have better bows than regular archers like the description says?) and the Russians can train Arbalesters *before* bulgarian brigands.

Am I missing something here? Are Bulgarian Brigands worth actually training, or only as Mercenaries?

[CeeBod]

Quote[/b] (Aleksandr Nevsky @ Jan. 25 2004,13:38)]What is the point of Bulgarian Brigands in SP campaign? They require a Master Bowyer
Never seen the point of training Bulgarian Brigands myself either - the +1 Valour bonus in Bulgaria doesn't mean much, as to build them requires a master bowyer - which gives +1 valour to all the missile units that don't have master bowyer as a build requirement Byzants are better teching up Trebizond for master bowyer, as valour 2 Trebizond archers are better than valour 1 Bulgarian Brigands. (IMHO)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Daevyll]

Quote[/b] (Aleksandr Nevsky @ Jan. 25 2004,13:38)]On the subject,

What is the point of Bulgarian Brigands in SP campaign? They require a Master Bowyer The few factions that can get them can train better or just as good missile units before them...I understand that they are mostly Mercenary Units, but still...a master bowyer??

Byzantines can get Trebizond archers that in my opinion can tear apart alot of stuff in the early era (do they really have better bows than regular archers like the description says?) and the Russians can train Arbalesters *before* bulgarian brigands.

Am I missing something here? Are Bulgarian Brigands worth actually training, or only as Mercenaries?
They are very useful to the Hungarians.

Not only are they good missile troops, they are also relatively capable as flanking troops and move fast.
I like them personally.

[kawligia]

Update:

I've been using more missile troops in my armies and I think I'm beggining to like what I see. I am in the process of overhauling my entire army building strategy and I think I will continue to use them.

The only problem is that sometimes the AI is to stupid to move out of arrow range, or charge when I am firing on them. They just sit there and take it as I unload on them. Thats no fun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

[Quessa]

In the beginning on my Medieval Total War experience, I didn't use that much archers as I believed that my cavalry could charge and take them out before they could unleash hell. After a couple of attempts, I noticed that I was so wrong. Those bow-fellows literally transformed my glorious, valour filled braves into a body carpet before I could reach them, and when I finally got my forces in good distance, AI general moved his spearmen in front of his archers. No worth to say, my riders were gone before they could exchange an effective strike.

After that, I always keep archers in my armies, even in those meant for offensives. Who wouldn't love those little peeps when they kill an enemy general with a single load of cold steel (like my Pavised Arbalesters did to an Almohad Khalifah just yesterday)?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[The Tuffen]

The most useful time i've found archers for is against the Horde. I found having my archers firing on the horde and killing them off before they could any where near to me very useful + they helped kill off their horse archers when they skirmished away from my troops i sent to kill them.

[Kaboom]

well, if you pay 225 for an archer unit, it's just a bit high. Some time you can buid them for 125 florin, not complain

[kawligia]

You know what I just found out?

Archer units sem to be able to kill high valor units just as easily as lower valor units. That's good to know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]Archer units sem to be able to kill high valor units just as easily as lower valor units. That's good to know

arrows really are equal opportunity killers, valour is never good protection for such units. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (kawligia @ Feb. 10 2004,14:07)]You know what I just found out?

Archer units sem to be able to kill high valor units just as easily as lower valor units. That's good to know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
Yup, that is why they are great at killing those jediknights. Just hold him with some spears or something and then give him all you have with arrows... Soon he will fall. Just remember that he will not fall to the first volley, he has after all many lives. But potentially there are 60 lethal arrows in each volleys.

[Kristaps]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

Well, yesterday, playing Wes's mod, I had my German held Poland attacked by a few stacks of byzantines (mostly their infamous low morale infantry) led by a nine star general...

My Polish garrison was led by a one star low-life general with no special character traits: bad or good; in addition; my whole army consisted of vanilla spears, archers and some medium cavalry.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

While kissing the province good-bye, I noticed, that I could create a spear wall from one hill to another so, that flanking the wall would become impossible (I was playing large unit size though). I stacked all my missile guys behind the wall, single rank, one behind another: 6 archer units in total; the general and the cavalry on the sides.

To my amusement, the 9-star byzantine kata general fell after just a few volleys and the whole horde went running back across the Carpathians. On my orders, the medium cavalry men captured more than a thousand of the imperial cowards, cutting their heads off on the spot...

The polish regiments could not rejoice for long. The next spring, the byzantines came back in force, another 9-star general leading their masses...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

Nevertheless, same as the year before, another greek prince bit the dust. This time, my archers almost ran out of steam though. Again, the sight of their pin-cushion like transformed prince was so frightening that the whole byzantine lot went running again...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Well, that's what I call a good example of usefulness of archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Crash]

Quote[/b] (chilling @ Jan. 21 2004,08:43)]Try attacking a bridge without any archer units.


That'll show you their worth.
Try defending a bridge without archers. The enemy archers will chew you up.

My favorite tactic is to focus my arbalesters on the enemy king if he is leading the opponent army. Killed the Khan in one battle and killed the Pope in another battle that way. I learned this tactic the hard way. The first time I fought an army with arbalesters, they killed my 5 star general at the very start of the battle.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

well, call me old-fashioned, but i wouldn't get by without archers. Same as i wouldn't get by without spearmen (who also seem to be a favourite 'what's the use of...' thread topic). Methinks this is something to do with people just using swordsmen and heavy cav and getting away with it due to the poor, confused AI.

[Bob the Insane]

Using archers is harder I think, it has the greater potential for huge successes and for huge failures...

I have had examples of defensive battles where almost half of my units were archers and we have sucessfully defended ourselves with practically no casualties against massive armies. I have also had examples of battles where the enemy has shrugged off the arrows, overwhelmed the spear wall and left my poor archers to be massacred.

One tactic (SP) I use is to only have a few archers on at first and attempt to break the enemies first wave, if that succeeds then on come the archers and light cavalry to fend off any additional waves...

If the enemy has a lot of armoured units or has armoured it's normal units normal archers can become a lot less effective very quickly...

[kawligia]

so do a lot of you guys use a purely spear wall/archer army, maybe with some cavalry to chase routers?

I've never tried that before.

[Crash]

Now we are back to the basic rock, paper, scissors tactics. It all depends on who you are fighting. If the enemy has lot's of calvary, then spear walls and archers will suffice. If the enemy has spears and archers, then you should use armored swordsmen and archers. If the enemy has lots of swordsmen, then you need lots of calvary. That's why most experienced players favor a mix of spears, swords, missile and calvary - adjusting the precise proportions to the most likely battle scenario.