Log in

View Full Version : Defeat?



The Wizard
01-21-2004, 20:02
I was thinking this over lately.

In RTW, what happens when an army of yours is defeated on the field of battle?

In MTW, it was easy: an army came from a certain province, and if it was defeated, it just returned to that province.

Seeing as RTW does not have provinces, but has armies moving freely, to a point, I wonder what happens when you are defeated.

Does your weakened, tired army get a sort of 'head start' on the enemy? For a tiny army of yours, tired and battered, is easy prey for the eager enemy, which could lead to the fact that it'll be quite the predicament to get an army out of there once you've lost, if we're talking about a serious defeat.

What I'm talking about is: what to do on a stragetical level, after your army has been beaten on a tactical level?

Escape must not be too tough, yet the enemy must also get the opportunity to capture the remainder of your army, providing you lost soundly. There shouldn't be a situation where, if you lose, it is impossible to escape, because of the proximity of the enemy.

Seems like a fine line CA is walking.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

Monk
01-21-2004, 20:28
hmm this is a very good question, and since we don't know all the details of army movement (who moves first ect.) then it would be hard to answer, maybe a dev can clear this up. however they are busy, but here's hoping http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

some_totalwar_dude
01-21-2004, 22:46
Maby your army would get scatterd over a certaind area (I guess not, to many micromangetment)

I think it wouldn't be very unlikely for an army to flee to the nearest settlement and try to hold out until relieved, assuming that the army they where defeated by comes after them.

Atleast I would do this if my army get's beaten.

discovery1
01-22-2004, 06:47
The easiest answer is that the winnering army is too tired to pursue, unless it has fresh troops in reserve. By the time it has regrouped, your army is long gone.

Revenant69
01-22-2004, 07:10
I think, but dont quote me on this, that each army is going to have a specific number of movement points so to speak. So if your defeated army is out of movement points after its battle - then its sh*t out of luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-devilish.gif But if you still have movement points left over than you can attempt to outrun the pursuers. This is the most logical model to me. And I do remember hearing soewhere on these forums that armies are going to have movement points.

Similar thing was in Panzer General 3D. If a tank unit ran out of movement points, ie out of gas, then you could catch it with whatever units you had left over. But that unit didnt necessarily ran out of ammo and so you could shoot at it until it did, then you could destroy it with ease - 'twas the only way to destroy some really nasty german tanks.

This theory would also make sense as a nimble cavalry army of the Parthians would be a very hard thing to catch even after they were defeated. I guess you could risk splitting off your cavalry to go and pursue them.

What do you guys think about this?

Nelson
01-22-2004, 15:04
Quote[/b] (Revenant69 @ Jan. 22 2004,01:10)]This theory would also make sense as a nimble cavalry army of the Parthians would be a very hard thing to catch even after they were defeated. I guess you could risk splitting off your cavalry to go and pursue them.

What do you guys think about this?
What do we know about strategic movement rates? My guess is that all armies move at the same speed regardless of composition or nationality.

If there are movement points of some sort the defeated army may get one free point of movement in the direction from whence they came.

Sir Robin
01-22-2004, 20:07
Though the map is not province based the strategic game is still turn based.

This will require some sort of "movement point" system for the various armies. Probably affected by percentage of mounted versus foot units and maybe even getting a bonus for certain factions.

Since the map is broken up into specific battlefields I would assume that a defeated army would simply move over to the next battlefield away from the victor. If an army has been defeated several times or severely it may "disintigrate."

Since the strategic game is turn based battles will probably take place at the "end" of the turn.

Nelson
01-22-2004, 21:44
Quote[/b] (Sir Robin @ Jan. 22 2004,14:07)] This will require some sort of "movement point" system for the various armies. Probably affected by percentage of mounted versus foot units and maybe even getting a bonus for certain factions.


I’m not sure I’d like army speed to relate to its’ composition although I realize how logical it sounds. I don’t believe the game should encourage players to build armies that are grossly inappropriate to the era or faction which is what I think this would do. If strategically, cavalry moved faster than infantry, people would build pure cav armies and do all sorts of ahistorical things with them like raising bogus Roman cavalry armies tailored to pursuit or raids.

I think strategic speed related more to the commanders than to the troop types. Any faction could have a swift general or a plodder. Maybe strategic movement should be a command attribute of leaders.

RisingSun
01-23-2004, 01:10
That's a very good idea. Also, army size should be a large factor. Larger armies would be quite cumbersome, no?

I remember CA said though battles would be less frequent, they would be much more decisive, as was in history.

I hope the effects of an army's defeat are pretty severe. I believe CA said there would be some desertion present, which is good. This would open the way for more realistic casualty ratios, whereas a victorious army loses 1/3 of its men on a routine basis in MTW.

The Wizard
01-23-2004, 19:54
Hmm...

I would say that an army moves at the speed of its slowest men... or rather, no faster than the baggage train. So it doesn't matter if your army is all made up of Scythian horse archers, they won't go much faster than an army of phalangites. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Also, I would like it if RTW settled into a bit more realistic progression of a war... things like border conflicts were impossible in MTW's system. Think the wars between Antiochus III and the Ptolemaic Empire over the Levant.

At defeat, I'd say a defeated army should get some kind of head start at least. Also, a defeated army should not just move to another battle square, that would start a whole new battle. Things like trapping fleeing armies by closing them in in a pass, or surrounding the place where they wait to be picked up by their ships should be possible.

Also, splitting off your cavalry to chase the enemy could be something... but they should only gain a faster movement speed for one or two turns, for without the supplies that are in the baggage train, they can't keep up the pace of a chasing army forever.

It seems like a hard thing to do for CA, but possible given the new army movement system. On a stragetical level, it will take the game to a far greater level than the tactical level, when compared to the previous installments.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif