Greeks vs. Barbarian??

[Barkhorn1x]

We know much about the Roman experience vs. the Gauls, Germans, Britons and Dacians. Basically, a well-handled Roman force could beat a larger barbarian horde, due to better training, organization, command control and flexibility.

But how did a Hellenistic military systems fair vs. the Barbarians? I’ll admit that I can’t name one battle between these two. It stands to reason that there must have been many such encounters; in Illyria, Thrace, Macedonia or Spain.

Can anyone offer insight (and sources) on this issue?

Barkhorn.

[Sir Robin]

Tough question...

I believe there were quite a few battles between hellenistic forces and "barbarians."

The reason these battles are not well known is probably because of the nature of their nations.

Hellenistic nations spent a great deal of energy fighting each other over "Alexandrian" territories.

Rome however spent a great deal of energy fighting eurasian "barbarians."

After Rome conquered its neighbors their wasn't much left besides "barbarians," besides the Persians of course, to fight.

[Hurin_Rules]

Philip of Macedon engaged in multiple battles with barbarians in Illyria and Thrace. Might want to look into those.

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Basically, a well-handled Roman force could beat a larger barbarian horde, due to better training, organization, command control and flexibility.


Provided that they had large space to conduct those tactics of course. Barbarians' advantage was the forests, in which Roman tactics were useless.


Quote[/b] ]But how did a Hellenistic military systems fair vs. the Barbarians?

You can count Persians as barbarians, because Greeks too, named people who didnt speak Greek, as barbarian.

In case you insist on European barbarians, Greeks did not care about them too much because they did not want to expand towards unfavorable European climate. Cant blame them though, have you seen Greece? Even you may not want to return back. LOL

[thrashaholic]

The Celts managed to sack Greece all the way to Delphi, but were beaten by the Greeks at the battle of Delphi in 279BC. The greeks were assisted by the weather though, it rained heavily and caused landslides on the Celtic position. I don't know the details of this battle (like how much fighting was actually involved), but its quite an achievement for a so-called "barbarian horde" like the Celts to be able to push a "mighty civilisation" like the Greeks right back into their heartland....

Thrashaholic

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ Jan. 23 2004,23:21)]The Celts managed to sack Greece all the way to Delphi, but were beaten by the Greeks at the battle of Delphi in 279BC. The greeks were assisted by the weather though, it rained heavily and caused landslides on the Celtic position. I don't know the details of this battle (like how much fighting was actually involved), but its quite an achievement for a so-called "barbarian horde" like the Celts to be able to push a "mighty civilisation" like the Greeks right back into their heartland....

Thrashaholic
Yes, they did sack a large part of greece at the time.

The macedonians were weak and were caught asleep and were defeated. If i'm not mistaken, the macedonian king's defeat in that battle led to his dethroning.

Then the celts moved south to thessaly. The thessalians didn't fight them but let them get through for fear that they would suffer the same as their northern neighbors.

By the time the gauls reached central greece, the aetolian alliance (i'm not sure if this is the correct term in english, in greek it is "aetoliki sympolitia") had managed to gather a respectable army of about 15,000 men from its member-cities. The gauls were more than double, however. They even managed to storm a city which had been left totally unguarded. This was the only city the celts conquered during this campaign, as they lacked knowledge of the technology of siege machines. They would usually just pillage the land around the cities.

Then they headed towards delphi because of the fame of the "riches" of the place. On the slopes of mount Parnassus, though, they were caught in an ambush. The ground was rocky and they weren't aware of the many different passages and roads. The greeks rolled rocks and created landslides and shouted out loud. All that, in addition to the sound and sight of thunder (there was a storm going on) scared and demoralized the celts. They fought bravely but when their leader got killed (in fact, he got badly injured and after giving his last orders and advices, he committed suicide) they decided to retreat.
However, they got lost in the narrow passages of the mountain and most of them were massacred.

There is an area near the site of the ancient battle which is called "kokkalia". The name comes from the greek word "kokkala" which means "bones". It was named this way because the farmers in the area would still find human bones buried in the ground, up until a few decades ago...

The surviving celts retreated further north in order to find less hostile lands but when they passed through thessaly, the "thessaloi", knowing that the celts were now weak, fought them and pushed them further north.

Although this campaign was a failure, the celts really managed to appear as a serious menace to the people in most of the cities of central and northern greece. Their defeat was due to their own strategical mistakes and their lack of advanced technology.

[Barkhorn1x]

Thank you, ...err...Bigus Thingee;

That was good information. Can you give me the source for this?

Barkhorn.

[PSYCHO]

“In 279 BC, with a Celtic Army advancing on his territory, he (King Ptolemy of Macedonia) failed to appreciate the gravity of the situation and behaved like a boastful madman.
Celtic emissaries were sent to Ptolemy’s court, offering peace if he wished to purchase it. Taking this as a sign that the Celts wished to avoid fighting, Ptolemy demanded that they give up their arms and surrender their chieftains as hostages to him. The Celtic emissaries broke out into laughter as they departed for their camp. On return, they stated that he “would soon see whether they had offered peace for his sake or for theirs”. Ptolemy then slew the emissaries which infuriated the Celts.

The two sides meet in battle and the Celts won a resounding victory, slaughtering the whole Macedonian army. Ptolemy himself was thrown from his elephant and the Celtic warriors tore his body to pieces and fixed his head on a lance.” - (The Celts, Thrust to the East, 51: Daithi O Hogain 2002)

“A general by the name of Sosthenes gathered together the remnants of the Macedonian army and over the course of the next two years built a force larger than the previous. The Celts under Brennos encountered this force and again defeated it.” - (The Celts, Thrust to the East, 53: Daithi O Hogain 2002)

“In 246 BC an army of Celts, fighting for Antiochus Hierax, defeated Seleucus II of Syria at the battle of Ancyra.” - (The Celts, Thrust to the East, 67: Daithi O Hogain 2002)


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Nowake]

Well, one comes to mind very fast.

The dacians severely defeated Lisimachos, a tetrarh of Alexander, who after the death of the last claimed the Balkans as his teritory. He raised two expeditions against a dacian ruler from across the Danube, Dromichaites. In his first campaign, his son was captured, in the second, himself.

Not too encouraging for the greeks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[The Wizard]

*Starts planning his invasion of Brittania, whilst sitting in front of a forest of xystoi, belonging to the infamous hetairoi*

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif



~Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-pirate.gif

[Catiline]

You can take the Hetairoi to the misty western isles, i'll stay in Greece with the hetairai thanks,

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] (Barkhorn1x @ Jan. 26 2004,16:29)]Thank you, ...err...Bigus Thingee;

That was good information. Can you give me the source for this?

Barkhorn.
I read about the whole campaign of 279-278BC in a greek military history magazine. I suppose that you can make a search on the internet as it would be difficult to find the same magazine i suppose... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Sorry for that.... but i'm sure you'll find some info. Look for the battle of Delphi.

As for the name... bigus dickus is the...well...somewhat funny name of a roman general, a friend of the roman commander of palestine, in the film "the life of brian" by monty python.
Every time the commander mentions his friend's name, his legionnaires burst into laughter.
Moreover, in the movie, bigus dickus has a problem spelling "s", instead of which he spells "th". So, this is where the "thingee" name comes from.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I don't have a problem spelling "s" myself, i just thought the name was funny... lol

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Jan. 29 2004,00:32)]You can take the Hetairoi to the misty western isles, i'll stay in Greece with the hetairai thanks
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Jan. 28 2004,23:32)]You can take the Hetairoi to the misty western isles, i'll stay in Greece with the hetairai thanks,
Are you saying that hetairoi is female? Aaagh -- I hate greek -_-



~Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-pirate.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Jan. 29 2004,18:14)]Are you saying that hetairoi is female? Aaagh -- I hate greek
Hetairoi: companion, male
Hetairai: companion, female

Macedonian cavalry was called 'companion cavalry', while, and this is less known, the Macedonian phalanx were the 'foot companions'.
The Athenian courtesans were also called companions, since this is what they essentially were. The accompanied you and kept you entertained. Like most courtesans, sexual entertainments was not the only (or even the main) point.

[dancho]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Jan. 29 2004,11:57)]Like most courtesans, sexual entertainments was not the only (or even the main) point.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

You better lay off the orange juice, cowboy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

I read somewhere that the "barbarians" usually raided the balkans from the danube region...

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Ludens @ Jan. 29 2004,11:57)
Like most courtesans, sexual entertainments was not the only (or even the main) point.



You better lay off the orange juice, cowboy.


it's true the athenian courtesans were something like a geisha. they received some education, unlike most women at the time, although i'm not so sure they could play music, like their japanese analogs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
pericles' wife was an ex-courtesan... he used to read his speeches to her, before doing that in public, and she would tell him her opinion...

oohhh, and if we want to stick to (silly) detail, it is:
hetairoi: companions, male
hetairai: companions, female

the singular is "hetairos" and "hetaira"

hehehehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

seems i'm a great poser after all.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Morcini]

Whoa, I never knew this before. It would make an excellent movie, as would most of the ancient world. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif
Info much appreciated

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (dancho @ Feb. 02 2004,04:30)]
Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Jan. 29 2004,11:57)]Like most courtesans, sexual entertainments was not the only (or even the main) point.
You better lay off the orange juice, cowboy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
dancho, I just wanted to make the point that this weren't 'just' prostitutes. They were expected to be musical, cultured and of good conversation too.

biguth dickuth,

Quote[/b] ]pericles' wife was an ex-courtesan... he used to read his speeches to her, before doing that in public, and she would tell him her opinion...
If you are referring to Aspasia, she wasn't his wife but his mistress.


Quote[/b] ]hetairoi: companions, male
hetairai: companions, female
Thank you. I'm afraid my ancient Greek leaves much to be desired.

[biguth dickuth]

you're right about aspasia, she was just his mistress.

my mistake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif