Arm balance for 10K games

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Let's open the Pandora box again.

After the 2.01 patch (and even before) there were a lot of talk on florin level and possibly moving away from 15k down.

CBR talked about 5k games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif ... And many other amounts were proposed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

There were two goals in changing florin level (weel, at least that's m understanding);
- somehow make units rout faster to make flanking / other manoeuvers more efficient
- and also to try to restore the Rock Paper Scissor aspect of the game by changing the sword/cavalry balance so as to make spears possibly more usefull.

Now, at least in the timezone I play, I see a lot of 10k games and some 15k games.

I personally like this better. Game seems to be a little faster, morale being slightly more important than sheer attrition... the 1st goal may not be fully achieved, but 10k is a step in the right direction.

On the second goal, let's face it, it's still not working. Anti cav units are still not worth taking. You' re still better off if you play without spears or polearm. Like 15k, it's cav / swords. Armies are really 15k look alike in their composition.

I don't know if lowering yet again the florin level is a solution. I am not even sure there is a way to balance the games betweeen different arms at any florin level.

But sure, I am willing to give a try at different florins levels and possible additional rule (caps on valour upgrade? same valour for all units?).
As it is know it's a little frustrating. Fun, yes, but I still feel I play half of the game and there is a 'match up' dimension we are not playing with much.

Louis,

[CBR]

The 4-5k gameplay did improve on the Rock Paper Scissor aspect but not enough and missile became too expensive.

Thats why I started working on the Community Mod idea as its simply not possible with florins alone to improve on current gameplay.

A rule of say max 2 valor will of course improve it too. But there was not much interest last year when we tried to play valor 3 games.

But it seems to me people have no problem with unhistorical units/upgrades that change the gameplay/balance of this game. I have pretty much given up as there is simply too much frustration with this game.


CBR

[Cheetah]

Let's face it MTW/VI will never be "properly" balanced, if "properly" means equal or roughly equal number of spear/polearm units compared to swords in an optimal army. The only way to achive this (without host made rules) would be to lower the price of spears and this will never happen.

So, the only solution is to put a v2 cap on sword/axe units (but only on sword/axe). Yes, this was proposed before and yes there was no interest. Still, this is the only solution.

To me the lack of interest shows that people are happy with what they have. Why force them to change?

BTW, with Kongamato (and some others) we played 2 games (3v3) with the v2 max for sword/axe rule and it worked well.

[ichi]

First, let me say that I do not mind games at almost any florin level. Each level is different, and requires a slightly different style of play. I know that many think that the flanking aspect is the 'heart' of the game, and 15K and up sucks.

I understand your argument, and I agree that flanking is more important in low florins games. But, there is also a strategy to using armies at higher florins (=higher valor = longer hold times), and there is some fun (for me at least) in these games.

Now, here's the on-topic part of the post. In order to make spears have the same value as cav or swords then spears must be priced lower. And Cheetah says that ain't gonna happen.

At lower florins it seems to me that cav becomes more powerful and spears are even less desirable.

Remarkably, I love to get a few OFS when I can afford to valor 'em up, usually in 20K or above games. But, then the insane holding power thing raises its ugly head, so that doesn't work.

So, the only practicable solutions are: support CBR commuity mod, live with the game, or host games with rules (like minimum requirement of 2 spears, or max V2 swords, or ??). This too has problems, like when someone doesn't follow rules or people whining about not getting to choose their army blah blah blah. . .

CBR may be on the right track with the mod. After watching how lazy people were with the recent mappack release I wonder what will be necessary to get folks to adopt a MP mod.

Thanks for listening. I think I keep playing. I never even figured out 15K, and 10K is hard, so I have challenge enough.

ichi

[Alrowan]

10k spears arent useless, just overlooked, people forget thier rank bonus and morale boost it gives, i quite often find myself using spears more and more, they can manage to hold a line well enough and occupy more than one unit. and if you take lots you can get a morale boost due to numbers

[Pitt_Slayer]

well their good anit-cav units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and cheap i thought lowering florins we would see them more hmmm
i always use them in 5k game's and surprising their good and even fun (but not many 5k games about these days)
the problem with 10k v's 15k is troops don't hold so long and that changes one's views and tatic's towards the game now, its all chain routing now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif and to be honest i can't be ar*ed with that

5k is the way forward

[Mithrandir]

Why use spears if there are camels in the game anyway ? :D

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (Pitt_Slayer @ Jan. 24 2004,04:41)]well their good anit-cav units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and cheap i thought lowering florins we would see them more hmmm
i always use them in 5k game's and surprising their good and even fun (but not many 5k games about these days)
the problem with 10k v's 15k is troops don't hold so long and that changes one's views and tatic's towards the game now, its all chain routing now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif and to be honest i can't be ar*ed with that

5k is the way forward
Chainrouts happen more often with 10k than with 5k ?

Isn't that the other way around http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Puzz3D]

Mithrandir,

I think what allows spears to be used at 5k is that elite cav can beat swords. That happens because the cav has a better chance of breaking the sword in the charge due to the lower morale. The elite cav is prevented from dominating because you cannot buy a lot of elite cav at 5k. This particular gameplay falls apart at 6k and higher. The overall morale is low at 5k which means chain routing if you are caught out of position or doubleteamed, and ranged units are expensive. Overall it seems that both the ranged weapon and the anti-cav weapon were both overpriced in the spreadsheet as CBR has pointed out.

I would say, of the three, 5k is the least used florin level, and there is more or less and equal divide among players between 10k and 15k with 10k rewarding quick maneuver more than 15k. The multiplayer game doesn't work to full potential at any florin level, because the unit stats were made for single player and the upgrade system breaks the RPS which was weak to begin with (STW spears had an 8 combat point advantage vs cav, but MTW spears only have a 4 point combat point advantage as do all the anti-cav inf). We asked for stronger ranged weapons in MTW v1.0, but we got "ranged weapon upgrade discounts" in MTW v1.1 because of single play gameplay issues. Anyone can see that upgrade discounts cause a shifting unit balance with changing florin level. The upgrade system further breaks RPS by boosting melee capability on ranged units instead of improving ranged weapon effectiveness.

The basic multiplayer gameplay we now have at 10k and 15k is sword/cav (with the swords pumped way up so the cav can't beat them) because there is no counterarmy except the same sword/cav type army. That's the gameplay we have, and, apparently, the gameplay that most players want. Alternatives are available via alternate stats, such as CBR's mod,which enhance the "matchup dimension" (ref: Louis, first post last paragraph), but not many are interested.

[Dionysus9]

I think Ichi is correct-- ultimately the laziness of the average mp player makes it nearly impossible for change (even much needed change) to occur.

It is too much work to try to "push" mods on people who are too lazy to take a few minutes to install them.

There are some of us who would bend over backwards to try a new mod-- but most are just too damn lazy.

It sucks, but what can you do about it? Not much.

:(

[Swoosh So]

Also remember armor pierce are the new anti cav.

[Puzz3D]

Swoosh,

Nothing new about using armor pierce as anti-cav. I was using v4 mil sgt back in Dec 2002 as anti-cav and they were very effective especially against lancers which were the dominant cav type in mtw v1.1. When I say "sword", I'm including poleaxe units in that group, although technically they don't get the +1 attack vs spears. A better classification of sword + poleaxe units would be "shock" troops.

[1dread1lahll]

sorry, after my studies of 5k and 10k, i just wont play them....

[Tempiic]

I tend to use 1 to 3 spear units in 8k games, sometimes 0 though... Funny thing is that i use exclusively feudal sarges and nubian spears, avoiding armoured spearmen, chiv sarges and order foot like the plague...

These spear units, I do not use them for anti-cav purposes originally (though it does happen regularly of course) but rather for tying up enemy infantry units...

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Jan. 23 2004,22:04)]To me the lack of interest shows that people are happy with what they have. Why force them to change?
yes.. you cannot force people to change.. they will change when the situation hurts too much, become unbearable, or other reasons.

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Jan. 25 2004,01:08)]There are some of us who would bend over backwards to try a new mod-- but most are just too damn lazy.
hehe bachus dont blame me being lazy ;p often it just doesnt interest me enough. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif

[Ja'chyra]

Quote[/b] ]To me the lack of interest shows that people are happy with what they have. Why force them to change?

I agree, just because you don't like it is no reason to condemn it. Going by some of the reponses thee are still people you can play with your rules http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Mithrandir @ Jan. 24 2004,13:35)]Why use spears if there are camels in the game anyway ? :D
good to see u back mith.

as for camels, in low florin games, their use is really limited due to their low moral.. using them too high a valour is not effective as usually one use camel such that at a lower cost then typical cav, it is a sure-kill for cav, and the saving can be used on better foot/missile. it is real challenging to use a low valour camel for other purpose except to watch the flanks near to the entire army.. stray too far it can hardly fight long b4 overwhelmed by morale penalty.. and they are too slow to retreat to friendly to be used as reserved, usually caught in the chainrout.

[Mithrandir]

hehe, low morale maybe, but they can take on 2 cavs, even when attacked from both front and back, that does it for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

True however they could've used a bit more speed.Their charge is nice as it gives them power to flank units.

As for beind too lazy to install mods, its not that I'm too lazy.
If I knew for sure I'd like the stats and many others used it as well I'd install the mod. However if noone uses it its annoying having to reinstall the entire game...

I've been playing mostly 10k, and like Temp I use pears mainly as holding unit, nubian spears mostly.

[Puzz3D]

I'm moving up one notch to medium sized units in my 10k hosted games to see if that improves spears since they will retain their rank bonus longer.

40 --> 53
60 --> 80
100 --> 133

[Rowan11088]

I just can't imagine that there's no way to beat the pumped up swords alternative to spears...I'll admit I have very limite MP experience, but it seems like there are units that can beat those pumped up swords for less than those swords are worth, though they may not be useful against much else. I'm a big fan of woodsmen, with some small valor and weap and armor upgrades...if you upgrade a good ways they can take out moderate sword units because of their high charge. The really super sword units are a bit tougher, but why don't people just pump up their cav to the same level? There must be a level at which the cav can beat the swords again. Anyway, disregard me if none of this applies...as I said, little experience.

[Alrowan]

i thought at first fuedal sergs were worth it, but after using the chiv sergs on V2, i was converted, mainly due to the low defence of the fuedal sergs vs inf, id rather tie up units that i know wont get massacred vs inf.

[Pitt_Slayer]

maybe i didnt explain myself correctly
the Rock Paper Scissor aspect of 5k, there's only rock and scissors at 10k\15k, using spear at these florin levels = routing, at 5k there's less sword\elite horse and less valour, so more anti cav units = cheap spear units and horse will rout facing spear units

mith i wouldnt field a 5k army with all sword\horse as they would rout quicker then at 10k (thats the right way round)

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Rowan11088 @ Jan. 26 2004,18:16)]I just can't imagine that there's no way to beat the pumped up swords alternative to spears...I'll admit I have very limite MP experience, but it seems like there are units that can beat those pumped up swords for less than those swords are worth, though they may not be useful against much else. I'm a big fan of woodsmen, with some small valor and weap and armor upgrades...if you upgrade a good ways they can take out moderate sword units because of their high charge. The really super sword units are a bit tougher, but why don't people just pump up their cav to the same level? There must be a level at which the cav can beat the swords again. Anyway, disregard me if none of this applies...as I said, little experience.

Basically there are a limited number of units type;

- Cavalry
- Light Cavalry (Alan, Saharan, Pict...)
- Horse Archer
- Missiles
- Spears
- Polearm (the 3/1 kind)
- Swords
- other (naphta, artillery...)

Woodmen are part of the swords... same for Militia Sergeant.

Sure, in theory they are different from sword (with armor piercing and no +1 att vs spears). But practically, they are used the same way.

The only cavalry can win vs sword is NOT in a straight fight; cavalry wins because they have specific morale modifier, which with strong charge can rout the ennemy.

The more money you spend, the higher the morale is, the less likely the sword are to rout and the greater are the chance they will win against cavalry.

There is a level at which the cav beats the sword... but that's with less money and troops routing faster... Not many likes that.

Louis,

[Ja'chyra]

I use spears all the time in MP at 10k and 15k and while they are not game winners by themselves it would be very hard to win without them. 3 units of these at V2 or V3 can hold against 4-5 units of any enemy troops long enough to swing your cav or swords round for a flank or rear attack, and that's got to hurt.

Anyway, I will keep playing the game at levels that I like and right now it's 15k and sometimes 10k with no mods except the map pack. But that's just me.

[Tempiic]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Jan. 27 2004,01:52)]i thought at first fuedal sergs were worth it, but after using the chiv sergs on V2, i was converted, mainly due to the low defence of the fuedal sergs vs inf, id rather tie up units that i know wont get massacred vs inf.
I find val 2 chiv sarges bit too expensive... thats why i stick to val 2-3 nubians and val 2 feudal sarges... If i wait too long with my counter move they will get massacred yes... and if they take the brunt of my enemy army, more oppertunity for me to rout his allies ;)

[Mithrandir]

I've always hated Chiv sergs, rather have V3 Feudal sergs than V2 Chiv sergs, 4 more morale is more important for holding than higher defence. They might not last as long ,but that's usually not needed when holding units, at least they'll wont rout as soon as they see some peasants appraoching http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

[Puzz3D]

Mithrandir,

The v3 feudal sgt (982 florins) are higher morale than v2 chiv sgt (866 florins), but the feudals suffer casualties at a greater rate due to their lower defense and there is a morale penalty for the casualties suffered in the previous combat cycle which tends to offset their higher morale advantage. They are also going to loose their rank bonus quicker. In addition, even 866 is too much money to be spending on an anti-cav unit at 10k where chiv knights are priced at 675 and used effectively at that v0 price, and the average you can spend on a unit is 625 florins. The spears are more expensive than the cav knights which is not the correct RPS. Marginal RPS at 10k would be effective v1a1 chiv sgt (703 florins) or v1 orderfoot (680 florins).


Rowan11088,

The cavalry are supposed to be the anti-sword unit. This is stated right in the official Strategy Guide. However, in general, the only way a 40 man cav can beat a 60 man sword is to trigger it into a rout by virtue of the special morale penalties the cav gets vs inf. If the sword is pumped up to morale 8 (for example, v2 cmaa or v3fmaa), the cav cannot trigger the necessary rout, and you can't even come close to affording the necessary upgrades on cav where they could win vs swords by attrition. Cav also has trouble beating ranged units in melee, and this shouldn't be happening either in a good RPS system. The upgrade discounts given to ranged units completely undermines this aspect of the RPS at florin levels where you can afford lots of upgrades on ranged.

[Mithrandir]

I know Puzz, but my battlefield experience has led me to like the Feudals above the chivs,

they mght die faster ,but my point is that they dont die fast enough to take away the advantage they hav from the extra morale.

Tying up units is usually only a matter of seconds in which you maouvrer your extra units (the number which you are holding with spears-1) behind the units engaged with the spears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

well ,that's my style, not saying it's the only right thing :).

[Tempiic]

Yeah it works for both mith and me... it might not be the most effecient choice statwise... but still for some reason it is a preferred choice (also nice in combination with val 2-3 javelins) :P

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (Mithrandir @ Jan. 27 2004,08:08)]Tying up units is usually only a matter of seconds in which you maouvrer your extra units (the number which you are holding with spears-1) behind the units engaged with the spears
What extra units? You don't get more units than your opponent. While an enemy sword is beating up your spear, another enemy sword counters your flanking unit. Your tactic will work against a less skiller player. However, against an equal skilled player who purchaced the usual cav/sword thing, you already lost when you showed up with that spear. Skilled players don't send two units at a spear when one will do the job.


Tempiic,

If you are going to backup your spear with a javelin unit, then I'm the one with the extra flanking unit. I just have to be careful that I don't loose in the center before I win on the flank. Once again, you can win with a stat inferior army if you outplay your opponent. So what do you do against a top level player who takes a stat optimized army? This is what most top level players are doing now.

[Mithrandir]

yuuki, you dont always have the time to send one unit to counter spears, I've often caught "vets" by suprise as well, if they attack me (won shoot-out), they have already designated a unit to attack or just pushed their entire line my way, If I spread uot 3 spears in a line, they'll wont have the time to react inmediately.

anyway, we've come to a stalemate.

Like I said in my previous post, this often works for me, it may not be the same for you.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Puzz3D]

Mithrandir,

I've used spears in something like 2000 online battles over the past year, and they gradually lost effectiveness over that period of time as more and more players moved to the sword/poleaxe based armies. I recently stopped using all types of anti-cav bonus inf in 10k games, and my win percentage immediately increased. The anti-cav bonus is priced too high. The loss of the anti-cav componet is something I resisted by continuing to use spears for a long time, but the trend is clear: a player is not competitive at the highest level if he fields spears imo. You can use one or two as a specialty unit, but that's about it. I don't think they work as a main frontline unit. I do still use spears in 10k when I feel the opponents are not going to use that stat optimized cav/sword/poleaxe thing or when I think I have a chance of outplaying my opponent. I'm glad you have spears working for you because battles are more interesting with them in it.

[t1master]

v2 spears work good in viking era, but all units in viking era get a morale boost no?

how are the larger unit games going yuuki? i am curious to know your thoughts on those, does adding 30 additional spearmen make them last longer, or do they die faster cause the swords have more men too?

i like a unit or two of kerns to harrass enemy armored troops, but i'm not playing to win anymore... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Puzz3D]

Don't know because there is resistance to playing with medium size units, and I haven't gotten to try it yet.

[Brutal DLX]

I used to play medium size units in SP for a while, and when I started to play MP, I quickly realised the importance of the number of men in a given unit.
In my opinion, there is no proportional transition of unit usefulness, units behave a bit differently, and I think spears and the former 40 men units get stronger compared to the former 60 men ones. On medium, the unit sizes are 53, 80 and 133, IIRC.

[Orda Khan]

Seems to me it doesn't matter what the florin level, the game is flawed....

Drop this game for what it is...Second rate

If it's balance you want, install CBR's Community Mod

Yeh I can just see the masses heading to download http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

......Orda

[Mithrandir]

Is it possible to install and uninstall without having to remove the entire game ?

if that's the case I'll give it a shot :).

[Puzz3D]

Yes. The CBR mod just installs three additional eras, early+, high+ and late+. All the origial eras are still there, and no stat swapping is required to play the new eras. It's designed for 10k to 11k florin level.

[Nigel]

hmm, do you mean to say that when you install that mod, you can still play MP with people who do not have it ?

For that IMHO is the main hurdle for mods. People thinking: "well, if I install it, I can only play ppl who also have it, of which there are maybe only a few around (in my timezone anyway), and I dont want to limit myself to those few numbers of potential opponents". For me anyway, if I could still play everyone else, that would make it an easy decision to go and get the mod.

[Orda Khan]

Nigel..
I believe you are still playing MTW v1.1? This Mod is designed for VI v2.01. Using Mods on VI is a dream...because you don't have to swap stats ( does not apply to Napoleonic Mod, due to projectile stats )

At the moment, I have CBR's Mod, STW for VI Mod and OH/VI Mod all on the same install. The only time you need worry is when hosting....
" Do enough people have this Mod? "
As for joining battles you would have more options. It really is that simple and it's such a shame because some are much better than the actual game. Balance wise I can't stress enough how good CBR's Mod is. 11k is the designated level and things like cost prevent stupid upgrade imbalances. No more pumped up units, basically if you spend 11k and have 16 units at v0 you are ok

........Orda

Oh btw there is an uninstaller with it too

[Nigel]

Sound great, Orda.

I am actually planning to install VI this weekend.
About time I get my nose bruised by some real veterans.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

If modding is that easy, then really all it needs is the community to agree on a suitable set of stats. Ohh, I know, that's probably where the real discussions and arguments will start http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif. Well, I guess that's what we are here for. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Mithrandir]

Ok, I'm looking for the file now and install it asap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

If I like the play I'll make an advertisement for it on the mainpage http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mithrandir]

Can someone please give me a direct link ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Ja'chyra]

Mithrandir when you do the link can you make it clear that you can still play normal VI games as I thought as soon as you modded you could only play with that mod and that is probably what is stopping people trying them.

Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Orda Khan]

Hello Mith
http://www.mizus.com/hosted/CBR/CommunityModBeta3.exe

Hope this helps

...Orda

[BomilkarDate]

Most guys that are complaining about the "swordprob" are vets. I always hated the english rush armies and to me it was a challenge to beat them with armies using spears, cavarc, hybrid archers, halberds, footknights, or byz without barney (8+ shooters).
Of course I lost more games than I would have lost with a cav sword army, but I didn't care. I had my fun in playing and I started to know the other units better. They might not have a chance statwise, but many of the players online do not even know their potencial strong points. So many people do not know how to face "weird" armies.

Use fast manoevering wings with cav arc, coordinate fast cav charges vs. enemy pavs, encircle the enemy, change your battle line when the enemy starts charging, use wedges and hold formation commands. Just try to have fun and live the adventurous nature of the game in clicking spots of the screen, where your mouse never clicked before.
If you loose, blame it on your whimpy General (Sir John of Runaway or Nikanor Kowardopopolus) or deserteurs withing your troops. If you win, enjoy the victory. In both cases get a drink and check the replays to find ways how to use your troops more effectively. As you are vets, you know how to do that.

I did not play this game for about 3 months an when I finally came back 2 weeks ago, I just was sure that I was not going to continue playing the - in my eyes - boring cav sword armies.
I often do loose against skilled players, but Hey thats not much of a change And lots of my online buddies started using creative armies. Some of my best MTW/VI games were with Glor doing weirdo things, a series of Egypt vs Turks games with Kanuni and many many fast paced teambattles with my ELITE Clanmates. Not to forget the dozens of my Byz non Barney games with about 10 shooters.

Not everyone will like to play that way, but give it a try and you will see that other people do it too. Use weak fun troops and it will improve your gameplay. Play weird armies (commanded by Ibrahim the Insane) and you will see that that your crazyness (w)ill influence your opponents. Let the madness spread

That much

Bom

[Cheetah]

Early era 2 max seems to be fine with me.

Also, has anyone tried viking era with the 2 max rule?

PS. will give a try to the CBR mod. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I agree that it should be advertised a lot more.

[Tempiic]

I'd love to get in touch with you Bomilkar... and exchange ideas, notes and replays...

For almost a year I have been trying to play similiar to this which started by figuring out how turks really work... In time, I noticed I could not perform wthat ell if I did not have some core of foot hybrids to such an extent that nowadays I quite regularly field armies of which only 2 units do not carry a bow... Now, something funny happened... Nowadays I do not loose as much with these kind of armies as I currently do with the standard sword-heavy cav mix...

[Rowan11088]

Perhaps I'm arguing a lost cause here, but I still believe cav can reliably beat swords for the same price. I just did a test on custom battle, early, me as novgorod vs. spanish. I gave myself a valor 3, weap 1, armor 1 druzhina cav unit, and a valor 2 weap 3 light steppe cav unit, costing slightly less than my opponent's valor 4, I think weap 2 feudal foot knights. I charged my Druzhina's in frontally, which did do some damage due to armor piercing and druzhina cav's size, but what really clinched it was the steppe cav rear attack. I ended up winning by a very large amount...why can't this kind of thing work in MP? For every pumped up sword of your opponent, bring two cav. I think Druzhina are perfect anti-inf. counter, because of the armor piercing and larger numbers, but I think anything halfway decent should work. Even one cav will be fine if you have other good holding units. Doesn't this seem to make sense, even coming from a n00b to the MP portion of the game?

[Kongamato]

You will very rarely see units of the upgrades you mentioned in a 10k game, which is what weve been talking about. Most often you will face 60-man infantry units priced between 700-1200 florins and cavalry between 400-800 florins. In these situations, infantry can inflict great damage to cavalry that charges it frontally after the charge. The cavalry usually gets surrounded on three sides, double-teamed, pushed back, and usually routed. Also, you'll have to get to the enemy's flank in order to charge the rear, and that is easier said than done. It is almost a given that rear charges with cavalry work, but you need to get around to the flanks somehow, and waiting for you there will be the enemy's cavalry or a spear/AP unit that will stall/kill your cavalry. Even if your cavalry wins on the flanks, a strong line will still break through your center.

[Mithrandir]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif hte thing that won it for you is the 2 units vs 1,
Also as mentioned above, those upgrades are not suitable online, way too expensive.

if you have 2 units vs 1, the difference in strength has to be hugfe to lose, since unit getting flanked get both a morale penalty& less fight points.

[Cheetah]

Rowan, always buy valor first, buy armour/weapon only if you have leftover money.

[Rowan11088]

Well the point I was trying to make is that the cavalry can win for less florins. I'm not saying cavalry can frontally charge any sword unit and win, but the point is to try to use flanking as much as possible. If people spend 1000 to 1200 florins on a single unit in a 10k game, you can easily bring 2 cav for the same amount as that unit alone, which can take it out. If there's cav waiting for you behind, then you must still be winning because their lines are much smaller than yours. But since everyone seems to think it won't work in real life I'll accept that.

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (Rowan11088 @ Feb. 02 2004,10:19)] If people spend 1000 to 1200 florins on a single unit in a 10k game, you can easily bring 2 cav for the same amount as that unit alone, which can take it out. .
You cant cause you're limited to 16 units.

If there would be reinforcements online, it might work like that.

[Nigel]

Not saying that I dislike your idea, Rowan11088, but it is propbably fair enough that it does not translate into real life. In my mind it does not seem right that a cav unit(s) costs less than the equivalent sword unit and can still beat it. But maybe I am overlooking something here.


On a side note :
Would'nt it be nice if reinforcement management could be included in online battles ? In SP I always enjoy that aspect a lot and it could not be all that hard to implement. Just a thought.

[Brutal DLX]

I don't think it would make much sense, newly arriving units would probably be caught in the rout or just swept away. Normally there's not enough time to assemble your fresh units and throw them into battle as when you're losing, the enemy will chase your units off of the map and thus be close to your staging area.

[Mithrandir]

I mentioned this idea few months back,
it's possible if the red zones would be bigger, red zones for enemies only.

there's already an online reinforcement system, with castle battles :).

[Tempiic]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Jan. 27 2004,17:25)]Tempiic,

If you are going to backup your spear with a javelin unit, then I'm the one with the extra flanking unit. I just have to be careful that I don't loose in the center before I win on the flank. Once again, you can win with a stat inferior army if you outplay your opponent. So what do you do against a top level player who takes a stat optimized army? This is what most top level players are doing now.
Sorry I missed that...

You are right in a way Yuuki... However one javelin unit costs roughly 280 florins.. though it will give you a local disadvantage there as your opponent may have an additional sword unit there instead of the javelin unit, since you have one very cheap unit, you might be able to use val 4 mil sarges against val 3 ones... depending on the rest of your army.. which creates a local advantage for you somewhere else...

It does take some micromanagment from your opponent to deal with it, as one sword unit needs to avoid that spear unit to deal with that javelin unit the right way.. and as such yes, if it was a 1v1 game you'd have little chance... unless it was a 5-6k game perhaps a 8k one too... or unless you outplay your opponent... But I am not a 1v1 player, and I tend to play 3v3's and 4v4's most of the time... And one of the things I noticed in such games is that single unit vs unit comparisions matters not that much... as it is all about creating local superiorities... and cancelling out opposing units there where you have not gained them by for example distracting or delaying them... Having more superior units in total only matters when they can be used at the same location against the opposing players. Otherwise you may find yourself being overrun one group at a time due to having local disadvantages all the time... despite your side having more 'elite' units.

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (Tempiic @ Feb. 03 2004,10:35)]
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Jan. 27 2004,17:25)]Tempiic,

If you are going to backup your spear with a javelin unit, then I'm the one with the extra flanking unit. I just have to be careful that I don't loose in the center before I win on the flank. Once again, you can win with a stat inferior army if you outplay your opponent. So what do you do against a top level player who takes a stat optimized army? This is what most top level players are doing now.
Sorry I missed that...

You are right in a way Yuuki... However one javelin unit costs roughly 280 florins.. though it will give you a local disadvantage there as your opponent may have an additional sword unit there instead of the javelin unit, since you have one very cheap unit, you might be able to use val 4 mil sarges against val 3 ones... depending on the rest of your army.. which creates a local advantage for you somewhere else...

It does take some micromanagment from your opponent to deal with it, as one sword unit needs to avoid that spear unit to deal with that javelin unit the right way.. and as such yes, if it was a 1v1 game you'd have little chance... unless it was a 5-6k game perhaps a 8k one too... or unless you outplay your opponent... But I am not a 1v1 player, and I tend to play 3v3's and 4v4's most of the time... And one of the things I noticed in such games is that single unit vs unit comparisions matters not that much... as it is all about creating local superiorities... and cancelling out opposing units there where you have not gained them by for example distracting or delaying them... Having more superior units in total only matters when they can be used at the same location against the opposing players. Otherwise you may find yourself being overrun one group at a time due to having local disadvantages all the time... despite your side having more 'elite' units.
tempiic,

I don't think I have a monetary disadvantage elsewhere because v2 feudal sgt 578 + javelin 280 = 858 while v2 cmaa = 723 or v3 fmaa = 859. Your center will be ok, but you will have a numerical disadvantage and possibly a monetary disadvantage on the flanks.

I would say many players have figured out that flooding an area with more units than your enemy can bring is a very successful way to win team games because of the outnumbered morale penalty. Players who use this tactic don't want the average morale level to get up too high because it increases the chance that the tactic will fail. As morale increases the target of the attack will be able to hold longer which increases the time available for his allies to respond to the threat. I've never seen a proponent of the techinque say how long the target should be able to hold out.

[t1master]

i like tempii's reasoning behind the javelin unit. they are cheap, and fun and effective if managed rite. add to it that they do really well behind your infantry line already engaged in melee, hurling their salvo over the line. they kill a fair few enemy before they run out lowering the morale of the troops they'er pelting, add in the armor piercing and they can take down a heavy cav unit or two, if played correctly. phear the kerns baby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

all that said, a v4 kern unit gots an attack of 6, no defense maybe 1, and a morale of 8, similar to maaa at v2 or v3(what we mostly see in ten k games, minus the defense, which isn't really a big big problem if you keep an eye on them) but at half the cost. you can even afford a weapon or armor upgrade if you so choose.

i guess my point is, they can be an equally effective unit, at v4 if they are backing up a line of spears or swords, just don't get em away from your main body, or let them engage head on...

just a fun unit to spice up the game and i've begun to grow rather fond of them.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Tempiic]

plus they are fast rated usually (never used kerns sadly as i rarely play with english) which make them excellent flankers and pursuiters too

Other disadvantage is that often they do not have such high charge bonuses either compared to heavy inf...

Still I do not take them regularly in 10k games (i do in 8k ones) and I strongly advise not to use them above 10k


btw they were val 2 at the listed price...

[LadyAnn]

Annie's take:

- due to game mechanics beyond stats and costs, the game either make spears too strong or too weak. That means it is possible not ever find a balance. There is no local-minima in the system, it's either making a type much stronger than others, etc.

- However, it is possible to try community mod.

- As it is, without adjusting stats or game mechanics, each florins level has different feel, but all has problems, if using "having spears/cav/infantry/missile" as an ultimate yardstick.

- I believe it reflects somewhat historical military for medieval. I repeat here something I said earlier:

only in Late Period that we see the come back of spears and polearms in battles. The 100 year war between France and England, I believe most are played with Cav and Infantry.

* The Greek revolutionized warfare with compact spears formation; Greek warfare is mainly Spears center with light cav on sides.
* The Romans 300 years later proved that compact swords formation is dominant force. Romans is mainly swords, with only few cav and archers, and no spears.
* The Huns show that cavalry is an answer to swords, but the real cavalry power came much later.
* The Byzantine carried on Roman legacy, that makes Byz Infantry the right represenatation. Learning from the Huns and other Eastern people, the Byz added horse archers and put some more emphasis on Cav. But until 10th century, war is fought with swords (and some axes).
* There are several evolution in early medieval era:
1) the better metalurgy and plate armor (discover of ununiform steel making) make the infantry heavier and heavier;
2) cavalry also is heavier and heavier, making cavalry mobility and momentum a force.
In High Era, Western army is... surprised... Men-at-arm and knights. That's what we see in high-era 10k games
* In the East, Turkish army actually adopt Mongol warfare, prized for high mobility and the disruption power of the missiles. The Mongol revolutionized warfare in the emphasis of ultra mobility and autonomous functional units. Not until modern 20th century that we see such autonomous units in operation again. Until then, the autonomous units are at company or brigade level, not down to squad level.
* Seeing the power of the knights, the spears and polearms are back in vogue. Spears get longer and became pikes. That's to counter the heavy cavalry, seen as the main threat. Polearms are mainly anti-cav weapons. Also, axe, a very offensive weapon due to the swinging action, came back to counter the heavy armor.

so, there are some level of historical correctness (although I can't claim that it is 100% true and there are always counter examples). I guess it makes game much more boring, by having only swords and knights plus some xbows. But don't tell me that the historically correct army has numerous unit types and have to have all four elements of spears/swords/cavalry/missile at relatively equal proportion.

- So, balancing is simply for game play, as it shows much higher level of skills. It should be such that a proper mix of units would have somewhat slightly better chance to win against uniformed army, but not overwhelmingly. A swords army would easily chop early spears army, but not the late heavy pikes army.

Annie

[Alrowan]

well ive been working on new formations now, and forgetting the army setup, its been quite challenging to break the standard inf line formation, but ive come upon a gem that works wonders in 10k games, so if you see me playing, be sure to take a look at it. who knows, with newer formations mabe spears and other units might become effective, but as it stands, in the inf line, spears are useless

[Orda Khan]

During the 'High' Mediaeval period, the armies of Europe were based on a feudal system, with each Baron, Earl etc providing troops in return for his position. These titles too were awarded in order to buy favour, though many times we have seen the outcome decided by the armies of some Duke who can't decide which side to join. There is no way that these armies consisted of men-at-arms and mounted knights. The vast majority were peasant farmers, miners and the like and as for weapons, they were usually the tools of their trade. I am sure CBR will agree with me when I say the spear was by far the most popular weapon of the period

......Orda