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Duke John
01-25-2004, 23:25
Hello everybody,

I must warn beforehand that this post is not of the kind you usually see in the Dungeon. Still I have my reasons for posting it here; it's mod-related and I need advice from other modders. So here goes

I am troubled and torn. Several months ago I started a thread where I posted my first new unit graphic, the Uruk-Hai of the Lord of the Rings. At that time I did not know that it was only the start of something huge.

The ME:TW community
The community wanted a Lord of the Rings mod badly, and more and more members offered their help. The response was so huge that we had to move to a forum dedicated to ME:TW as the mod was now known. The forum at leftzed.com was getting crowded however and development of the mod was hindered by the amounts of posts produced by the members.
The choice was then made to separate the developers forum and the players forum, with the latter only opened recently.

Leading the ME:TW team
The discussions were productive and they were for me enjoyable to see how enthusiasts all over the world could work together. In time responsibility and leadership was appointed to me. I did not ask for it, but I "earned" it in some way.
At that time I was still hopeful for a finished mod and I released the first beta. This beta was for 90% my work, not surprisingly since it was mostly composed of graphics. After the many compliments on that achievement we even got a review in a French Wargames magazine.
More people offered their talents and I happily accepted them and tried to coordinate all their efforts. And at this point the problems come. Modding is a hobby but I had reached a point where I needed to guide 10-15 people, moderate discussions, bring up new ideas and make 30 BIfs. I rang the alarm and the ME:TW team came up with the idea to make small groups where each one had a focus on a small part of the mod. Play-testing was getting along very nicely and Helper was making his fabulous map of Middle Earth.
After several weeks there was however still little done. The discussions were no longer productive as almost everything was discussed and we had reached the point where it was time for action and not for words. This change of working method was not really "accepted".

The problem
Some people may think what the problem is, so the mod is taking longer to finish, so what as it gets finished a bit further in the future? Well at that time I was putting enormous amounts of time into the mod especially compared to other ME:TW team-members. I am not judging them for that, it's a hobby and everybody may decide for themselves how much time is put into it. But my time was set as I still needed to finish loads of BIFs, I was progressing but the rest of the team couldn't catch up. And from my point of view this was not the way to go as making unit graphics should take the most time. Changing names adding units is done in a flash, but still it wasn't done. So I cracked my whip a bit harder but to no avail, a small spurt was made and then the energy was again lost. I got disheartened, was I such a bad leader that I could not motivate others or was something else wrong. Well after weeks of frustration the last straw was a serious argument between two members.
In December ME:TW team had a bit of a crisis as me and Helper decided to quit the team, partly because of the said argument and partly because of how ME:TW team was losing spirit and its nice and friendly atmosphere.
But the bond between ME:TW teammembers seemed to be strong and after a grouphug we decided to continue working on ME:TW.
We had our Christmas vacation and we should have gotten enough energy to go full speed. Then I decided that my university should get priority for a while and I posted that I couldn't spend time on the forums and the rest should continue without me for a while. And silence struck the developers forum. Apparently the dynamic ME:TW team lost its momentum completely and got to a halt.
Perhaps one of the most ambitious mods for M:TW was perhaps doomed to failure because of the amount of work needed to be done. Perhaps we made the wrong decisions on how we worked. But in the team's present state I think I can safely say that it will never be finished.
If someone cannot see this mod to die, then I seriously hope that he takes over the lead and finishes it. The big problem lies with the unit graphics. Without me, there is currently nobody who can do it. I got backup by someone, but he left, another one started his own Silmarillion: Total War mod. I do know that Aldaeron and Encaitar still want to work on the mod, so any future METW modders will certainly get help from beside the enthusiastic METW forum community, I wish them the best of luck.

Why am I posting this?
Probably a question some of you came up with if you did read my post. Well, if I continue working on this mod and finish it, there will be a mod probably wanted by thousands of people. The ME:TW forum already has 400 members and each day we have new members. And we haven't even promoted our mod in the LotR community. But this also means months of work, work on a project in which I no longer have much motivation for. The only reason I was still modding ME:TW was because of the community. I have no ambition into making a career in the games industry so it always remains just a hobby.

I realise that this has become quite a long post and perhaps there won't be any responses, but if that is the case then it's still an answer. If the people do not care for the person behind the mod, then why should I care about the people who play the mod?
Perhaps I just want to hear, "Quit with something you do not want to do." I have several other interests, I have a loving girlfriend and I am learning myself how to make wooden furniture and there is of course a study to finish. For me it's worryingly alarming when people comment on me when I post something else besides ME:TW. "Yeah, sure it's nice, but what about ME:TW?" After writing this post I have emptied my heart and I feel kinda relieved as I finally tell the community on how ME:TW is faring and that I am getting fed up with it.

So what do I gain with quitting ME:TW? Well an awful lot of free time and no obligation to an internet community on how to spend it. I really like the maturity of the Org community and I plan to help other modders more and finish some guides. One merit of ME:TW was the experience I got with M:TW and I want to share it with others. Perhaps it will even mean a finished METW mod made by someone else. I am now also working solitary on a Wars of the Roses mod. I do it in my own pace and for my own pleasure, and I like it

I am curious whether anyone could have been bothered with reading it all, but for me, this post is a kind of goodbye to ME:TW. I have enjoyed it (at least the discussion bit) and I want to repeat a line (probably a bit altered) a Finnish member once said on the developers forum: "I feel honoured that I could have traveled in the same train." But I have reached the point where I need to switch to another train and get on with my life, so please do not blame me for my resignation.

Thanks for the attention,
Duke John

the Black Prince
01-25-2004, 23:50
i have never worked on such a large project as ME:TW but as a staff member on a highly flammable staff team, i know how tough this kind of working relationship can get.

onthe other hand i was sorta hoping to seeing the finished version as well,


i can fully understand your reasons for leaving the team, but, maybe from the teams point of view, is it not possible for you to finish off the grpahics, in your own time, and send them off to someone... afterall without these the mod will not happen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
i relaise my reasoning here is somewhat selfish, but is it not possible, rather than have 1 "leader" but to simply decide who will do what, grpahics, map, scripts etc, set a date, and then meet back up again. or is it that you do this, and you do all your work and they don't???

the loss of this mod would be a great blow to a large part of the community, but maybe the prblem was you let things get to big. perhaps a smaller team, of "hardcore" modders would have been better, rtaher than have loads of people contributing to it.


anyways, enough of trying to fix the problem you've made your decision, and how ever much i might regret it as an ardent fan, i can appreciate the reasoning.

times change, duke, and people have to move on. as you say this is not your job, its a hobby of yours,and if you don't enjoy it any more then why should you persue it.
if you truely get nothng fromthisproject but grief anymore, then you've made the choice in leaving, and you shouldn't feel that much guilt. sure, you may have dealt those of us who are waiting a great blow with this news, but those who know your reasoning can hardly begrude you this.
i only hope you don't feel the same about your other projects, i was especially looking forward to your eiting guide.
who knows what the next station for that train might be

Antalis::
01-26-2004, 00:02
I have read the whole post.

Some months ago I played the beta and I really liked the new units. They were and are very well made.

I know that you have helped very many people and mods with your knowledge and units.
Thank you for that.

Your desicion is a pitty, but I can understand you: If the motivation on a project is lost and it changes to work and is not a hobby anymore, then its time to make something else.



Antalis

Lord Of Storms
01-26-2004, 00:17
DJ, As a member of a large Modding group working on a large project I know exactly where you are coming from and to a degree what you are going through,
Unit animation is demanding work indeed and you have made some remarkable contributions in your time here,
The moment the Mod overtakes your life to a point where you are no longer enjoying it,
which is why most of us do it to begin with, then some considerations should be taken.
While the team may not be able to find some one of your caliber and with your undersatnding of the Game.
Someone will step in I am sure, the project is to good for the reamining team members to give up on because of changes within the group.
You have to whats best for your peace of mind mate, plain and simple.
Whatever your final decsion I hope you decide to remain a member of this community, you are well repsected by your fellow Modders and some of us do care. Cheers...LOS

Emp. Conralius
01-26-2004, 00:20
It's very understandable. The responce you got from the community was huge As was the demand. Undoutably this mod was the most ambitious of any of the MTW mods.

I belive everyone in the METW community care for you DJ.
It was a good run Duke John, and I was only glad to be apart of it. With the utmost respect, farewell good sir.

I certainly hope this mod deosen't crumble after the passing of DJ, though his resignation is a painful one.

Much respect man


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Lord Zimoa of Flanders
01-26-2004, 04:01
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

Well DJ that was a difficult decision,but you made it and that gives you credit,i really liked your graphics,the ones you made for METW and HTW,we owe you a lot.Think that a lot of people became more interested in modding MTW and graphics in general when they looked at your units,i did for sure.Hope you are not lost for other people who will seek your help and advise and just try to find a good balance in your live and regain the love for modding with your War of the Roses modSee you around "Grand Graphics-Wizard of the Low Countries"...

Count Zimoa of Flanders http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

King James I
01-26-2004, 08:36
Sorry to hear of your resignation Duke John. The units in both HTW and ME:TW are a credit to your skill. I'm sure you'll be dearly missed by the team, but I can understand your decision. I hope you keep in touch with the MTW community since your assistance has been a great help to the community.

I may seem a bit selfish not to mention insensitive, but I am attemptingto make a mod set in ancient times in the Near and Middle East and I am searching for a graphic designer to make some units. If you need some downtime from modding I completely understand and will have to continue my search, but if you could be of some help please e-mail me at King_James_i@Hotmail.com

HopAlongBunny
01-26-2004, 12:13
I read it all. You sound frustrated and po'ed...not the results looked for from a hobby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Sounds like the right decision http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

I hope you will remain around the .org; your knowledge and talent will always be useful and the restraint you show in expressing very strong feelings is rare indeed.

Thank you Duke John, and good luck with the important stuff (studies and gf) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Marshal Murat
01-26-2004, 12:35
Hey DJ after WoR you should create unit files and unit prod for mods by creating a basic one.
Use your greeks in a Greek Unit thing.
WoR in Medival
METW in fantasy
etc.
that way after finishing that, the modders can acess thier own files and get bifs without having someone else do it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Sir Zack de Caldicot
01-26-2004, 13:36
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Duke John
01-26-2004, 20:21
Thank you all for your understanding responses. I'll try to explain some more by answering some questions.


Quote[/b] ]but is it not possible, rather than have 1 "leader" but to simply decide who will do what, grpahics, map, scripts etc, set a date, and then meet back up again. or is it that you do this, and you do all your work and they don't???
I never wanted to be the single leader. I am kind of perfectionist which means that I want things to look and work good. So that does mean that I had an opinion on all aspects of the mod. In time I growed into the role of being the 1 leader. I always encouraged democratic decisions,but that also meant averaging opinions and sometimes that doesn't deliver the best result, so we made teamleaders who would lead the differenct aspects of the mod: graphics, modding, playtesting and background. But that didn't work. It is really pretty hard, to convince volunteers to work consistently and on a schedule. I think the NTW-team can be admired for their spread of talents among members and who are also doing their stuff.


Quote[/b] ]Whatever your final decsion I hope you decide to remain a member of this community,
I will certainly remain a member of the Org community. I've the plans to finish the graphics guide and make a general modding guide. I've always admired the feel of the Org, it's kinda unique on the internet and I feel proud that I have become a senior member.
And I still want to finish my other big love, the Wars of the Roses mod. It's such nice little piece of history and will provide a nice little mod that I can easily manage on my own.
In the future I might start freelancing again to make unitgraphics for other mods or start writing guides for using Blender 3D since that will probably be THE tool (it's free afterall) for making new models for RTW.


Quote[/b] ]Think that a lot of people became more interested in modding MTW and graphics in general
I think a new kind of modding is arising, Flip, MetalStorm and Avarin both proved to be adept at making new unitgraphics with 3D modeling programs. I will do my utmost best to help them with guides to perfect their working method and to quickly introduce others into 3d modelling. RTW is 3D and M:TW can provide us a nice stepping stone. When RTW arrives the Org will have a good group of modellers who can quickly mod RTW into something else.


Quote[/b] ]Hey DJ after WoR you should create unit files and unit prod for mods by creating a basic one.
Some time ago I made thread called Duke John's tavern so that everybody could download my BIFs. It never got off the ground simply because the units were not really perfect; the weapons and shields were not positioned correctly and I would rather keep them on my harddisk then face the simple questions of when it's going to get fixed when everyone is able to do it themselves.
My ancient units can be found in the HTW mod and the fantasy units in METW beta. I have made 8 or so medieval BIFs that I never uploaded but I am currently remodelling them with my improved skills and I must say that they're looking stunning http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif


My resignation doesn't mean that ME:TW is dead. But it did have a side effect that I kinda expected and hoped for. It made people aware of that a great game that some have always wanted is slipping away. On the ME:TW forum members are gathering to take over the lead and finish the mod. I encourage them and I suggest that if someone is getting the urge to help that now start posting on the ME:TW forum (http://www.metw.net/forum)

Again thanks for the kind responses,
Duke John
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Metal Storm
01-27-2004, 16:08
Hey DJ,
I'm behind you 100%. I support your decision and the fact that you are doing what is best for you. The whole point of these MODs is to have fun Were not making money on them so it MUST be enjoyed When the FUN stops so do the FAN Missions or MODs.
I know EXACTLY where you are coming from. I have worked with several "Group" fan missions (none for MTW) but in the end there are always those who are more dedicated than others. Since nobody is on a payroll it is difficult to "crack the whip" as you so put it.
Your work it is excellent and anything you do for the community is a great help. "When Duke John Posts, we all read"
If it wasn't for you I wouldn't be able to do what I can do with the Unit bifs now and I am grateful.
Good luck in all your future endeavors http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

WesW
01-28-2004, 05:48
I had a similar experience with my Call-to-Power II mod, in that I lost interest in the game itself, and continued the mod for several months just because I liked the hobby itself, and felt that I owed it to people to finish it.
I got it pretty much finished, but finally I gave it up, partially due to some personal problems but mostly because a sense of obligation just isn't enough to make you willing to spend 20hrs. a week or so on the project for months on end, when you could be doing more enjoyable things with your leisure time.
And this was in spite of the fact that I had some close relationships with the guys helping me, and had nothing but good experiences with all the contributors at Apolyton. If things were going bad within your group, then it's probably a testiment to your values that you stayed with it as long as you did.
If you want to discuss anything that is still bothering you from the experience, with someone else who has been the team leader on large mod projects, email me and I'll be happy to help in any way I can, even if it's just to listen.

There are a couple of small graphics problems that I could use some help with for the Medmod, if you would like to help out there. I just need some advice, and perhaps additions to a couple of the game's bifs.

The problems are with weapons. They are present in the bif, but none of the units ever used them, so I don't know how to make the item texts so that they are positioned properly. I have studied the guides and so-forth, but for me it would still be trial and error, and, like you, I have other parts of the mod that I need to attend to.

Email me, or post in the 3.14 thread if you're willing to help, and I'll give you the details.