Spear units...

[Rowan11088]

Well in the vein of some of the topics I've seen posted, I'd like to inquire as to how people use spear units. Playing VI, I've largely forgone them; Heavy Infantry take out cavalry much more quickly, and other things to boot, plus they have higher morale. Also, in MP I would think no smart player would charge their cav into your spears, so they don't do much good except as a mild deterrent, unlike the SP where the AI can be stupid at times. So, why use spears over heavy inf.? And i'm talking later game, where florins are not as much of an issue (obviously vanilla spearmen are cheaper than, say, gallowglasses or CMAA).

[castle]

I like playing the turkish just to get the jhi, i love watching these guys destroy a whole army in a few minutes. In a recent game the byzantines re-appeared late in the game with 1300 kats, a stack of jhi killed 800 and the king in a few minutes and only lost 20 men. they even killed some kats chasing them uphill.

[Aelwyn]

Yes JHI seem less of a spear unit though, at least not the type Rowan was referring to. Whenever I see a person in MP with a spear unit, I target that unit, since I know its definitely one of their weakneses. The lower the florins, the less that may be, or the higher the florins...not entirely sure. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Spears are fine for SP though, so long as you use them with a good enough general, or they have valour on their own. But I wouldn't trust v0 spears unless I was sure of the enemy I was facing.

[Rowan11088]

Yeah I'd say JHI are more like the heavy infantry I was talking about, they just happent to be even better against cav. Of course, i'm not asking anyone to justify taking valour 0 Spearmen into battle, but why use feudal sergeants or chivalric sergeants, even with some valor or weap/armor bonuses? Why are they useful as compared to heavy infantry?

[Lord of the morning]

Generaly I dont like spear units, to defensive for me, spears are made to stand and take the charge, and will most often be out manouvered. They can however be usefull when defending a hill or so, forcing the enemy cav to charge in a different location.

[Doug-Thompson]

To defend the missile troops who are doing the real killing.

[Duke of RumpyPumpy]

Depends on the faction.

I am playing an Egyption capaign right now and the bulk of all my armies are Saracen Infantry. Abyssinian Guards and Ghazi are no good to hold a line, they die to quickly. So the only real option left is Saracens. Which are ok in late as long as you keep them on the defensive. Then send the suicidal maniacs like Ghazis to flank.

Saracens upgraded have stood up to everything quite well so far, except for Varangian Guards who really chop through them in a hurry.

[kawligia]

So if you're playing catholic and don't use spears, you just use MAA and cavalry?

[Servius]

I don't bother with spear troops once I get to High cause Halbs/Billmen serve the same anti-cav role but are more flexible against nme swords too.

This is, of course, unless I'm still fighting in the damn desert. There, polearm troops are too heavy and they get exhausted too easily, so I stick with spears. I take Egypt and then rush up to Asia minor and that Arid Ground terrain ASAP.

[kiwitt]

If the JHI are so good, why in SP does the Turks not excel.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Mostly useless.

Any infantry with a moral around 8 is able to stop cav. No spears needed, provided your other infantry got high enough morale. Then numbers and superior attack / defense come into play, and sword win.

Louis,

[Revenant69]

Quote[/b] (kiwitt @ Jan. 26 2004,21:56)]If the JHI are so good, why in SP does the Turks not excel.
They never live long enough to build them. Every game I played when I wasnt turks, they were wiped out either by the Byzantines, Egyptians or the Horde.

[kiwitt]

Could we give the turks a bonus then, e.g. more starting money, prebuilt building and units.

[Revenant69]

Problem may lie in the fact that both in High and early Turks start with very few provinces. This may not be problem to the player but it seems to hamper the AI quite bad. Maybe giving the Turks some of Byzantine or Egyptian territories is going to offset that. I do not know.

[Thon]

the turks are pretty handicapped in early in the infantry department imo. iirc they only have spears and axemen. spears are pretty horrible on the offense, and ghazi have such low defense it's like they wear giant magnets to attract enemy weapons into them.

i've been playing a turk early game and have really come to appreciate horse archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[kawligia]

The problem with halbs is that their morale is so pathetic. They will soil their armor if you look at them sternly.

[Martok]

Aside from using spearmen to protect my missle units, I also like using them as an "anvil", while I send my attack units (Arab Infantry, Highland Clansmen, whoever) around to the enemy's flanks to act as the "hammer". However, I will admit it helps enormously to give my spearmen a couple armor upgrades, so that they can better deal with any cavalry and/or heavy infantry thrown at them.

As for the Turks, they do definitely have a hard time surviving, especially in Early--particularly when I'm playing as the Egyptians or Byzantines. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Jan. 26 2004,21:03)]Mostly useless.

Any infantry with a moral around 8 is able to stop cav. No spears needed, provided your other infantry got high enough morale. Then numbers and superior attack / defense come into play, and sword win.

Louis,
Unless they are hit by high valor royal knights http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Lost a battle cause of this. Chain rout and all troops had reliquary morale bonus.

I like spearunits thanks to that they come in 100 packs. They are quite good horse archer trapper if their morale is high enough. Simply put the unit the wrong way. The horse archers will charge and when they finally engages in melee, they get slayed quickly. Unlike halbs, spearmen can absorb a flaking charge (if their morale is high enough) without losing to much combat abilities.

In also using them as delay troops so my flanking troops gets enough time to come in position.

They are the best arrow absorbing troops there is.

Regular halb are to slow (hate slow troops) and got to much armour for my taste. They are better against swords but weaker against AP troops and arbs.
I do use Billmen, JHI, Swiss halbs and CFK (CFK is enough badass to compensate for their slow speed) though.