Advice for HRE

[DojoRat]

I've been playing and enjoying Med-Mod lately and have really enjoyed the changes and challenges but with Germans I've really hit a wall.

Maybe I just hate the lack of control. No sooner do you respond to a Polish incursion than the Italians, French, Hungarians, English, Arragon, or Dane's jump in and try to take a piece, often two at a time.

I don't start trouble but maybe I should since they're all going to come after me?

Anyway, what has worked for you? I've taken a pounding in both early and late and would appreciate any advice.

[solypsist]

check the Table of Contents and Guide to Total War, both pinned at the top of this forum.

[mercian billman]

First of all do not start trouble. Trouble is to be avoided at all costs for the first 20 years or so. To do this you need to create a strong "diplomatic corp". Carefully watch your border lands to see if the enemy is massing men for a possible attack. If so shift troops to that sector. Build bishops as soon as possible, and send them into enemy territories this will allow you to see deeper into their territory, and spot a possible war before it happens. Build assasins, and place them in your central provinces if you see enemy diplomats in your provinces kill them imediately.

Try to garrison each province with 1-2 spears, UM, and 1 archer while, placing a royal army in a central province. It's far from perfect but, it should work as a detterent.

I'll try to post more later.

[kiwitt]

I am playing the HRE in "unmodded". I concentrated on farms and waited it out.

[mercian billman]

There was a previous thread about the HRE not to long ago here's the link:

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;hl=hre (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=13492;hl=hre)

I've never used medmod but, I believe the diplomatic aspect of the game should remain the same.

[torsoboy]

From: http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....t=14494 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=14494)


Quote[/b] ]Well rest assured you are not the only one to have a challenging time with the HRE. I must admit I had to replay a battle to get where I wanted to be.

Heerban are quite good when used properly but can die in droves if you're not careful. Knechte are great in Bavaria, but costly. The HRE lack a good spear unit in Early, I suggest not building many of those. Some archers are fine, not too many of those either. You need some archers in Burgundy and Saxony, because those are bridge defending battles. Some archers go a long way to minimize Heerban casualties against Italian infantry too. I feel that Swabian Swordsmen are awesome, even in this mod but you can't seem to build them in time. Mounted crossbowmen are great, try to get those ASAP.

The trick to using Heerban is that they absolutely destroy cavalry in woods, and will probably win against most infantry in woods. Norman knights might give you problems because their +1 attack is painful, but swarm them and pray the Heerban don't run. You will need to try lure enemy to the woods.

Your most important territories are Franconia, Bavaria, Burgundy, and Saxony. Build and garrison those and try to hold onto them with all your might. Franconia especially can net you 2000 gold with all farms, and still spit out Heerban at +1 valor and full weapons and armor upgrade. Until you set up trade networks it's the best province you can have.

Reducing your borders is hard, but the HRE is blessed with many homelands, which means you can build a massive army faster than any one else over time. I suggest taking Silesia when you have the chance, because it shields Franconia. Lothloringen is also great because the entry point from Ile de France is also a bridge fight if I remember correctly. If you hold Provence it's also a bridge defending battle from Toulouse.

France can be very strong because their knights are more numerous than yours, and their FMAA are slightly better than your Heerban. You need to take Flanders, this will cripple them. Try to take Ile de France to and sack it. They will never recover technologically.

The English can give you problems because you can't hurt them if you don't control the seas. Dedicate Friesland and Flanders to building ships and never stop until you do.

The Italians have better infantry than yours, and theirs can even beat up your cavalry badly. The key to destroying the Italians are Mounted Crossbowmen. They can outrun all their units and if used wisely, outshoot Sailors. If the chance presents itself, a combined charge of multiple Mounted Crossbowmen will decimate those sailors.

Hungary and the Polish shouldn't give to many problems, but may tie a garison to the borders you don't want them to be. The Danish and Swedish have never attacked me, but keep Saxony well garisoned just in case.

Other problems just stem from your leaders. Whereas France gets two 6* generals in Early, Italy gets one, and the English a 4*, you will have to make do with a 3* at best. Your princes can be competent, but will be most unloyal. In fact, you will be spending the first turns just building watchtowers/border forts/town guards just to make things magageable. If you stick with it you will eventually get some great leaders, like Henry the Lion, who has 4*. I was lucky to have a great emperor (Friedrich II) who had 5*, and whose offspring included several 7*.

I hope this helps.

[DojoRat]

Thanks for the advice. I should have been clearer in my request. I did do a search but found little that was directly related to Med-Mod. So I started again in the High era and have managed to hold my own. I was lucky that France and England went to war and Italy decided to go to the Holy land. I would say that the biggest strategic change that Med-Mod brings is the aggressive AI. The Poles and the Hungarians all attacked within the first 5 to 10 years, followed by a Danish attack on my fleets. Arragon quickly followed and Burgundy was awash with blood.

The only act of aggression I made was to attack the Danish fleets and of course I was excommunicated. I thought ten years had gone by, it seemed like forever :embarrassed:

Basically the advice for MTW-VI holds for Med-Mod, just multiply it by 10 Shift one unit too many and wham you have a new friend coming to visit with swords drawn.

My other mistake was not building more light cav. Just a couple more and I could have racked up some big kills on routing units. Oh well, the Spanish have launched a crusade, hopefully they'll come through Burgundy and it's bridges but I'm tempted to send my King on a glorious charge

[torsoboy]

Emperor, not king ;)

I'm wondering how the next version of MedMod (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=14715) will effect the HRE's survival chances. In Early, the HRE will no longer have mounted crossbowmen, which will put it against an disadvantage against the Italians. On the other hand, the HRE will have access to Chivalric Sergeants, so it will be easier against the French, English, Hungarians, and Polish.

[Kristaps]

Well, the med-mod implications for Germany (any faction, as a matter of fact) should be very different from the vanilla version of the game... It's a whole different ball game - the guides for VI won't work :)

[DojoRat]

From Med-Mod's read me file.
Quote:
German HRE
HRE generally has a very difficult position to hold onto, much less expand from, as there seems to be a hard-coded predisposition towards hostility built into all the other factions in the game. End Quote

I'll say.

[Quokka]

I have had massive problems with the HRE in 3.14. How bad? My best game is now in 1135 and I have 8 provinces with Switzerland the southernmost and this is the best out of about 10 games.
The usual gangbang started but I got lucky and after a few losses in the ensuing civil war, Bohemia, Bavaria, Austria, Tyrolia and Burgundy were lost but it cut of contact with the Italians and Hungarians. The forces I withdrew from those provinces let me garrison the few I had left effectively and a few years later the French and Poles asked for ceasefires. A few years after that Lorraine and Champagne revolted from the French under an onslaught by the English and I got to grab them giving me my current 8 provinces. The only time I was happy to see a civil war

Dojorat I feel exactly the same way about the lack of cavalry, Spears, Archers and Heerban just aren't enough to stop anyone and cav is thin on the ground. After the civil war I had time to tech up some provinces for Mtd X-bows and Dienstlute and now have Swabian Swordsmen but I am a long way behind everyone else in numbers and quality. I have no idea if I am going to survive this game.

One strat that works when I can pull it off is to raze Ile de France if I capture it. That really slows the French down and as the province is nothing but farmland to the HRE the buildings are no great loss but a great income. I do the same for any non-homeland province.

[DojoRat]

Yes, it makes no sense to keep a master spearmaker when you can't produce spears with it. (In Med-Mod) I keep only economic and morale boosters plus any siege weapon or strategic unit producers.

Quokka, try starting in High, it seems a little easier. You're still surrounded by unrelenting enemies but at least your units are OK.

[NewJeffCT]

I don't play with MedMod (yet)- but, when I played as the HRE, I pushed aggressively North. Took out the Danes, and then moved in to Sweden & Norway. A lot of trade good in those 3 provinces. You can take them and not worry about your other provinces, as Denmark/Sweden/Norway is a wonderfully defensible setup. Only access through the sea or through Denmark.

[Kaboom]

Some tips:

- 1st turn: don't build any war unit. Just build towers in all of HRE(even in the province you will lost)
- 2st & 3st turn: build Border towers in all of HRE. Build just a few Knight units.

After that build as you like. The loyal problem still need care, but it 's better now Don't start war first because they will jump to you soon If your Great Army is in the North and they jump from the Sound, not good

- Heerban-Viking in Franconia (attack: 4*, defense: 1+2 meelee shield, + weapon) and Swabi Swordmen (4*,3,+weapon) is better than Saxon Men-at-arm (3*,3)not build in Saxon, so keep build them in these province to the end At the whole Heerban with shield is just 1 less defence and 25% cheeper than Saxon men-at-arm, so I build them instead of Saxon MAA until late, except in Saxon. They just need more moral, so build them a church before we churn out a lot of them. Teutonic sergeant just to fill the numbers and garrison

- The Italian is a bit strong but their Kings cannot run fast if you win I often let them (or forced by them) advance and hold them at Bavaria river.

- Saxon and Franconia (especially Franconia)should need to hold at all cost because their value in florin, units, river.In Late compaigne you may need to hold on to Austria because of their command bonus building.

Remember, your empire is big so it is acceptable to loose some of your province and revenge later

[torsoboy]

Quote[/b] (NewJeffCT @ Jan. 29 2004,22:40)]I don't play with MedMod (yet)- but, when I played as the HRE, I pushed aggressively North. Took out the Danes, and then moved in to Sweden & Norway. A lot of trade good in those 3 provinces. You can take them and not worry about your other provinces, as Denmark/Sweden/Norway is a wonderfully defensible setup. Only access through the sea or through Denmark.
I would advice against that in MedMod. You need them as trading partners eventually, and your garrison in Saxony will start out outclassed by the Danes and Swedish. Besides, you will need all your troops elsewhere and Saxony is easily defended from the Danes (it's a bridge battle).

Deal with your other problems first, mainly France and the Italians. When you have that under control, do take Denmark because it's a fat cashcow. Sweden is less impressive in MedMod.