Khazars = Khazaks ????????

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I have a slight doubt: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Is Khazakstan today, aproximatelly the region that we know in the game as Khazar?

Are today's Khazaks the descendents from the Khazars?

I know it sounds obvious, but I wouldn't like to have any doubts.

Any enlightment will be apreciated... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Rosacrux]

AFAIK (and I am not an expert on the subject) the khazaks are not connected to the Khazars, bar the fact that they are both altaic-turkic people.

The Khazaks originate from the Uzbeks (khazak means "outcast" or something like that in the Uzbek dialect and that is what they actually were in the 14th-15th century). In the course of time a Khazak khanate was formed and gathered together and attracted several turco-altaic tribes, which in time became known under the collective name Khazak.

The Khazars on the other hand seem to be another Turco-Altaic tribe, but one that has not an actual descendant today - they seem to have melted in the local populations gradually over time, just as the huns and the mongols.

Some point out that some (if not most) of the Russian Jews might be descendants of those people, but there are serious doubts as to if such a scenario has anything to do with reality.

[Teutonic Knight]

I believe "Kazak" is a Turkish word meaning "free man" (Cebei can correct me on this), this is where the Ukrainian "Cossack" came from, because they were always so independant of the Russian Czar....

[-Isapostolos-]

Although I don't know for sure if Khazars are related to Khazaks, I do know that the Khazar nation was destroyed and replaced by Rus warriors when they sacked the Khazar capital Atil in the 10th(?) century.

I imagine the Khazars were blended into Russian society, and the had nothing to do with the Khazaks. It is possible though that the Khazaks belonged to the Khazar Quaghanate, and eventually separated themselves from the Khazars and started a new Quaghanate.

[Auxilia]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Jan. 29 2004,05:29)]Some point out that some (if not most) of the Russian Jews might be descendants of those people, but there are serious doubts as to if such a scenario has anything to do with reality.
The Khazars allegedly adopted Judaism to act as a counter balance between their Muslim and Christian neighbours. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (Auxilia @ Jan. 29 2004,16:29)]
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Jan. 29 2004,05:29)]Some point out that some (if not most) of the Russian Jews might be descendants of those people, but there are serious doubts as to if such a scenario has anything to do with reality.
The Khazars allegedly adopted Judaism to act as a counter balance between their Muslim and Christian neighbours. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif
Sure they did and Khazaria was the only Jewish nation around within a Jewish state.

But most historians think it is far stretched to beliee that the numberous Russian Jews are the offspring of the Khazars.

As I said, I am no expert to the subject. Maybe Cebei or somebody else knows more about the Khazars.

[The Wizard]

While they were related, I don't think that the Kazachs from Kazachye are the same as the Khazar from the Khazar Khakhanate.

Khazar was further west, while the Kazachs lived in Northern central Asia.

Eventually, the Khazar were defeated by the Rus Vikings from Kyiw, and eventually dissolved into the Rus civilisation.



~Wiz

[Cebei]

Sorry for not responding earlier, I am rarely online these days due to holiday.

There is a collosal ambiguity within the word Khazak itself, as it both means:

a)Khazak - which is a Turkic tribe in question here
b)Khazak - which is not an ethnic name at all and luckily translated into Cossack to avoid the confusion.

Some scholars say that the name Khazar is derived from the word qaz-'errer which means "wandering, crossing". Others say that it is derived from the Turkic word qas's which means "destruction, torture".

There is absolutely no way to tell the exact ethnic source and composition of the Khazars as the word KHAZAR belongs to the territory between Uigurs and Mongols which holds nearly 200 different ethnicities. However there are 4 hypotheses on Khazars' ethnic beloning.

a)Akhatzir or Akathirs (an ancient Asian tribe)
b)Sabirs, who are a Turkified branch of Ugor tribe.
c)Uigurs
d)Caucasian immigrants.

Their language was similar to the Bulgars' language mixed with Slavic and Turkic languages.

One of the earliest accounts of the Khazars belong to 602-628 Byzantian-Sassanid wars, as a group of reinforcements sent to Herakleios and leaded by their Khan, Yabgu Kagan .

The Khazar State emerges in mid 8th century when the Western Gokturk Empire fell. The power vacuum left by the GOkturk Empire was filled by the Khazar-Bulgar wars and it is believed that a former Gokturk high ranking official I-p'i-she-kuei assumed the leadership of the Khazar state, giving it serious legitimacy as a decendant of Gokturk Empire.

The exact territory of Khazars are also impssible to tell as there was hardly any notion of "border" in Asia at that time. However they held suzerantiy over the peoples of İdil-Bulgar, Central İdil and Kiev as capital and with Northern Cirmea in the south.

Thus Khazars exercised power on the territory staying on the West of todays Khazakstan. They only "share" very little common historical territory.

As for Khazaks (the Turkic tribe), they emerged in 13th century and are a mixture of Persians, Turks and Mongols and contrary to Khazars they enjoyed a tranquil history due to their skills in commerce and trade.

Another difference is, Khazaks accept Islam as their self-identification, whereas Khazars had numerous religions, Judaism being the most widespread among the elite, but there was not any oppression of the Islam.

[The Wizard]

I've always been wondering:

How did the Khazar capital look in the days of the Khazar Khakhanate's "Golden Age", if you will?



~Wiz

[-Isapostolos-]

Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Jan. 30 2004,13:54)]I've always been wondering:

How did the Khazar capital look in the days of the Khazar Khakhanate's "Golden Age", if you will?



~Wiz
The Khazar capital, Atil, began as winter camping ground at the mouth of the Volga, but eventually evolved into a crucial trading centre. Many Arab silver coins have been found in the region surrounding Atil, signifying that there was many trade and wealth.

But the prosperity came at a price. The Khazar state gradually became a commercial empire and started relying more and more mercenary armies, moving further and further away from the steppe nomad background which had been the source of their power.

And so, in time, the Khazar state fell...

[The Wizard]

So what do I need to imagine? Wooden houses near the river? Houses that look like wooden tents? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thanks everybody for the answers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

Domo arigato http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

[-Isapostolos-]

Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Jan. 30 2004,14:12)]So what do I need to imagine? Wooden houses near the river? Houses that look like wooden tents? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif



~Wiz
I looked it up in my book, but I couldn't find any description of the city, although there is lots of reference to it's wealth.

I don't think you should have a picture of a nomad city in your head. The Khazars of the 10th century were largely an ubran and sedentary society and so the had a lot in common with other sedentary steppe states. Atil probably started like any other nomad outpost, but gradually became more and commercial oriented, started building houses, and settle permanently.

[Cebei]

The only source we got concerning the urban lifestyle of the Khazars is a person (whom I believe was not a historian at all, but a nomad perhaps and some sort of epic writer) called Hudud. His depiction of Atil (das kapital of Khazars) is very positive, so it seems he was impressed with Khazar living.

He writes Khazar as a place which was very rich and beautiful. Khazar's economy was based on cattle, goat and infinite umber of slaves. Hudud says that only the Khan family's houses were constructed with bricks. Ordinary people lived in tents (however I must say that in nomadic people, tent construction was very advanced so these tents were far better protective, huge and more stable than your standard camping tents and could hold as much as 30 people). The city was divided into two districts; nomad quarters and Khwarazmian or original Khazars' quarters.

Hope this helps, because there is no other source hahahaha http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Orda Khan]

During research, I have read about the beginnings of Khazakstan. They were indeed a break away group from the White Horde territories, north of the Syr Darya river area. I have the timeline as 14th C.

.......Orda

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

So they really are different populations http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

Thank you all very much for the information. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif