View Full Version : Janissary heavy infantry
Crimson Castle
01-29-2004, 14:22
How do you defeat an army of JHI or how do you use them effectively?
I used an army of Billmen against them - but it did not work out.
NewJeffCT
01-29-2004, 14:33
mounted archers or crossbows will wear them down, and then you can use your foot troops to finish them off later. I would recommend Chivalric Men-At-Arms if you are a Catholic faction. Varangian Guard if you are the Byz and Nizari and/or hashishin if you are the Egyptians.
I think SAPs will defeat them too. But of course it is hard to get large numbers of those to face the JHI.
Horse archery might do the trick, but beware of attacking them with mounted units. If you do, do it with heavy cavalry with a nice big charge and hope that you will break them on contact, if not, then you can say bye bye to the cavalry.
As a catholic CMAA are a nice counter. They won't defeat them but they will inflict enough damage that the next unit will defeat them. You just have to be sure to have more CMAA than the enemy has JHI.
In any case, try to strip the JHI from its supporting units. Meaning, go after the other units first. When they are gone the JHI would be alone and fairly easy to swamp with troops.
insolent1
01-29-2004, 15:26
I'd use lots of arbalesters & either halbardiers or Dismouted chiv knights. I would use arbalesters to target only the JHI then once they have been whittled down try to pin them with halb's or CFK's & hit their flanks with some heavy cav. I've always found gallowglasses very effective against heavy infantry & might be a better idea than heavy cav against JHI, try to use the gallows to hit their rear & they should carve through them with no problems. Jinittes would also be very effective I wouldn't use foot javaleins as JHI are fast & would probably catch them. I would also not use CMAA as they are heavily armoured & have no armour piercing which means the JHI will have a pretty decent advantage over them.
Orda Khan
01-29-2004, 17:37
Golden Horde Horse Archers...run the stupid JHI ragged and then murder them with Golden Horde Heavy Cav. When you get them isolated they are particularly vulnerable...
JHI..Does that stand for Just Hopeless Idiots?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
......Orda
Kristaps
01-29-2004, 18:11
Hmm, JHI have armor piercing attack whereas hevily armored chivalric men at arms don't and their base attack is lower. It seems, CMA would be at a serious disadvantage against JHIs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Hurin_Rules
01-29-2004, 18:24
True, but they cost only 1/3 of what JHI cost. So even if your first CMAA unit gets routed and the second takes heavy casualties, you still come out ahead in a war of attrition.
Now Highland Clansmen only cost 1/7 of a JHI unit, if you really want to win a war of attrition.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
01-29-2004, 19:07
At equal florins cost, any average sword units will do...
Louis,
The JHI only get a small bonus against the CMAA, as they have 4 in armour. So the JHI have 5 in attack (6 against CMAA) and 3 in def, the CMAA has att 4 and def 3 (4 with the shield). So the two are fairly equal in a standup head on fight. Now the JHI have better morale and will inflict more casualties so they will win a normal fight, but at a great cost.
And remember this: You can pump out CMAA from any number of provinces you want, the JHI are severely limited in that.
just get something armour piercing like higher valour Militia Sergs or something like that. otherwise two cav units will do the trick if you attack from both sides. so long as the jhi don't really have any valour.
Rowan11088
01-29-2004, 20:25
Well frankly I wouldn't let my precious cavalry within a mile of these dudes. It is definitely helpful to isolate them, because you can still get their morale down between unprotected flanks, missiles, and flank attacks. I think the best counter is Halbardiers, assuming they're supported enough to avoid routing easily. I use the battle calculator on the Berserk Clan page, and head on JHI win against halbs with almost 70% casualties, while if the halbs hit the jhi flank the halbs win with 50% casualties, almost down to 25% if it's a rear attack. The JHI are hurt by the halbs armor piercing, as they do have armor too, and the halbs have very high defense, which tends to negate the armor piercing of the JHI. The JHI will kill faster, but a flank attack ensures they'll be hurt quite a bit already before you have to worry about that. Two units of halbs would be great, from both sides or one in front and one in the rear. Even better would be Swiss Halbs, because they're not as armored and have a better attack, so a flank with them would kill the JHI outright I think. But since you may not have Switzerland I can't really say that's the best solution.
Kristaps
01-29-2004, 21:15
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Jan. 29 2004,12:10)]The JHI only get a small bonus against the CMAA, as they have 4 in armour. So the JHI have 5 in attack (6 against CMAA) and 3 in def, the CMAA has att 4 and def 3 (4 with the shield). So the two are fairly equal in a standup head on fight. Now the JHI have better morale and will inflict more casualties so they will win a normal fight, but at a great cost.
And remember this: You can pump out CMAA from any number of provinces you want, the JHI are severely limited in that.
True in the long-run. I was referring to a snapshot-battle situation...
Anyway, regarding a comment here about the cots of janissary infantry versus chilvaric men at arms: for me, the real cost of a unit is its long-run yearly upkeep not the initial purchase cost. The upkeep cost is 52 for chivalric men at arms versus 67 for janissaries. Not such a great difference.
flanking.....sorounding....terian... thats my strength
NewJeffCT
01-29-2004, 22:36
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Jan. 29 2004,12:10)]The JHI only get a small bonus against the CMAA, as they have 4 in armour. So the JHI have 5 in attack (6 against CMAA) and 3 in def, the CMAA has att 4 and def 3 (4 with the shield). So the two are fairly equal in a standup head on fight. Now the JHI have better morale and will inflict more casualties so they will win a normal fight, but at a great cost.
And remember this: You can pump out CMAA from any number of provinces you want, the JHI are severely limited in that.
Part of my reasoning behind using CMAA vs JHI is that you first wear the JHI down using Mtd Crossbows and/or horse archer types. Longbows or Arbs are good as well, but Pavise arbs are a liability against the fast JHI.
So, if you have your unit of 60 JHI worn down to 48-52 vs your 60 CMAA, you have a much more equal fight.
Rowan11088
01-29-2004, 22:59
Not to mention tiring them out. Even the most uber units get crappy real fast if they're very tired. If you make those JHI run across the whole field chasing your horse archers or arbs and then hit them with fresh CMAA, you'll win pretty easily. I'd say that's pretty key, though when you're facing a whole army full of 'em that's a tall order.
Revenant69
01-30-2004, 01:42
Quote[/b] (Rowan11088 @ Jan. 29 2004,16:59)]Not to mention tiring them out. Even the most uber units get crappy real fast if they're very tired.
Hmmm tiring out a fast unit like JHI...I dont think its very feasible or doable. What if the enemy has more than 2 units of JHI in their army. Are you going to run around for half hour to tire them out while in the process your horses will tire too?
Lets see, JHI are fast, armor piercing, bonus vs cavalry, wicked morale...So I dont think I'd use cavalry against them, or any armored unit for that matter. Gallowglasses come to mind: low armor, armor piercing and cheap.
Nasty units like the JHI are best destroyed when enveloped from many sides IMHO, or peppered with big metal bolts.
Oh and once again dont use cavalry against them. LOL When i was defending Khazar against mongols with my army each one of my 6 JHI had over 700 kills while losing about half of their unit strength.
If you use your cav archers right you can bait the jhi into a situation where they will be attacked from multiple sides and routed before other units can get there to help them. In that way its easier to take on 3-4 of them. But, more and its harder. Also, its more difficult if they stick to the center of the army.
Brutal DLX
01-30-2004, 10:26
Assuming you don't have good units yourself, the most basic units who will do the trick would be Ghazis for Muslims and Mil Sarges, Gallows, Vikings or Highlanders after firing at them with a heavy missile unit like javs, arbs or crossbows.
It would be good if you double them for a quicker decision.
insolent1
01-30-2004, 17:12
CMAA have base armour of 5 & thats without armour upgrades which means JHI have +2 attack against CMAA.
DthB4Dishonor
01-30-2004, 17:14
Well AI is pretty stupid so you can probably shot the heck out of the JHI. Also the horse archer thing works well. I believe MagyarKhan, Amp, Koc and rest of Wolves have shown how this tactic can work.
Also a rear HC attack on the rear of JHI is fine as long as they are currently engaged and down to atleast 45. This should break them....if not its not that hard to disengage from a unit that is sandwiched and you can pull your cav out (at slight loss) and attempt the charge again. The biggest key in general to defeating the AI is to train alot of range units.
insolent1
01-30-2004, 17:19
I've had JHI routed by Kat's on more than one occassion. Any unit that is hit by Heavy cav from behind while pinned by another unit will route unless its very high valour or very close to general. Gallows are the only infantry with irresistible charge but they take time to maneuver into position so I would actually use heavy cav because the JHI will either route straight away or very soon afterwards so I don't think your cav will have much to worry about & they will be in the perfect position to chase down the remainder of the JHI.
RisingSun
01-31-2004, 05:06
Yeah, until the JHI route through your heavy cav. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Swissies had no problem defeating Jans
It's not hard to defeat JHI, it's dull. You have to be patient and exhaust them; if anything, be sure to drop their morale as low as possible, or else you'll have them fighting in units of 5 as enthusiasticly as at the start.
As to a unit good at slashing through them, I'd go with GK, but dismounted, else they loose horribly, or some mongol cavarly, any type, HC will exhaust and charge, LC will pepper them with arrows and then quickly outflank them.
Bah, I say. I used JHI for the first time the other night; I was not happy about the deployment and was forced to attack two MHC's with a JHI each, head to head. I was amazed and impressed to see the JHI's come away with like 5 or 6 casualties each, after completely eradicating both MHC's. And they each acquired two valour in the process.
Arquebusiers do the trick nicely.
I began using them alot late last year, so I know how to defeat them pretty much. I never take them head on with calv, I only use calv for flanking them. I usually throw a large numbered unit at them, to keep them busy as I work on a flank. That is my usual strategy.
Units I feel are good against: Vargs, dismounted chivs, gothic foot knights and archers of all kind.
Quote[/b] (insolent1 @ Jan. 30 2004,10:12)]CMAA have base armour of 5 & thats without armour upgrades which means JHI have +2 attack against CMAA.
No... They have 4. They get +1 armour with the shield but that doesn't add into the AP equation.
And Halbadiers aren't the best to send up against the JHI.
Simple, they are more expensive than CMAA, they are slower than CMAA (not to say the JHI), they have 5 in armour which equals a +2 to JHI attack, their own AP only gives +1 against the JHI and their morale is horrible.
So while they are equal to the CMAA in combatpoints (8), they suffer from the morale and speed and the fact that the JHI get +1 to attack compared against the CMAA.
So always go for the CMAA if they and the Halbs are the ones you have to deside for.
This is what happens when you send Cavalry vs JHI even from 3 directions (http://www.totalrome.com/images/mtw/screenshots/jhi_gen.jpg) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif (Check kills/death - warning to 56k'ers - 321kb)
Traunt them with archers, or mounted archers depending on your preference. Unarmoured units with high attack usually do the trick better - Think Clansmen and Nizari's. a Valour 4 clansman has an attack of 9 and one hell of a charge. Gallowglasses are even better but very hard to get a hold of.
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