gothic foot knights

[castle]

saxony has a bonus for gothic foot knights but I can not get them because there is no option to breed horses in this province. what's happining here?.

[Servius]

before you can build a horse farmer you have to build the 20% farm upgrade. First build that, then all the horse breeder upgrades will be available.

Also, in case you didn't know, you still can't train the foot knights, only the knights. What will happen, I think, is that you will train Gothic Knights with 0 valor, but if, at the beginning of a battle, you dismount them into Gothic Fook Knights, they will instantly gain 1 Valor. I THINK that's how it works.

[cutepuppy]

Saxony gets no bonus for GFK, but for the normal, mounted ones. Brandenburg gets a bonus for the foot knights. if you build gothics in saxony, they will get the +1 valor bonus. And if you dismount them they will keep their valor bonus.

[Suppiluliumas]

Quote[/b] (castle @ Jan. 31 2004,12:25)]saxony has a bonus for gothic foot knights but I can not get them because there is no option to breed horses in this province. what's happining here?.
You might want to consider building them somewhere that has iron instead. The weapon upgrades might turn out to be more usefull to them than the +1 valor. Just food for thought. Also, as posted above, you do need the initial farm upgrade for horse breeders to become available.

[Servius]

I have a related question though. In provinces that get a Foot Knight valor bonus, are you sure that valor bonus applies if the unit is made as the knight version and still applies when mounted?

Like, Hosp. FKs get a bonus somewhere, Malta or Rhodes. Anyway, if I launch an Italian crusade from there, will the Hosp. Knights get that valor bonus, even though the knights were "trained" and not the foot knights?

Germany has this for Gothic Knights/Foot Knights and France has it for Chiv Knights/FKs.

[hoom]

Quote[/b] ]You might want to consider building them somewhere that has iron instead.Nope.
Build them where the valour bonus is, then retrain them somewhere with Metalsmiths (by definition places with Iron), then you get upped valour + upped weapons = extra good GK :)

The French one is specifically for Chivalric Knights so it means the mounted ones & when you unmount before battle they keep their valour bonus.

[Revenant69]

I just had a (rare) moment of genius LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-idea2.gif

Suppose that you build one unit of Gothic Knights in Saxony where they get a bonus to valour. So essentially you have the following: GK valour 1/ GFK valour 1.

Now you take this unit of knights and retrain them in Brandenburg that adds +1 valor to GFK. In theory, you should now have GK valour 1/ GFK valour 2

Has anyone tried this? If it works then its one wicked thing to do.
*runs off to test this wacky idea*

[Revenant69]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Well ladies and germs, I have tested the theory I outlined in a post above. I used the fact that Toulouse gives +1 valour bonus to Chivalric Knights and the fact that Ile de France gives +1 valour bonus to Chivalric Foot Knights.

After building a unit of knights from Toulouse I sent them to be retrained in Ile de France and after that they were off to invade Wessex all by themselves.

The unit had no stars and no vices, this way I could see the true valour rating. Well, to my big dissapointment, the CFK had valour 1 meaning that they didnt get the bonus from Ile de France.

This brings a question. Why bother with bonuses in Ile de France and Brandenburg when you can simply build the respective forms of knights in Toulouse and Saxony to get their mounted/dismounted version 1 valour instead of just for the dismounted versions?

Seems like a wasted province bonus to me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif And chivalric knights didnt even get the bonus from Master Horsebreeder http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Dissapointed Rev

[Rowan11088]

You sure that 1 valor for the CFK wasn't from that province? From what I've read, no one has tested what CFK valor is if the unit is trained in the province with a bonus only to CK.

[Brutal DLX]

You have to understand that FootKnights and their mounted counterparts are two entirely different units in game-terms. The valour bonus applied to a unit is of course preserved if you dismount them in battle, it would be a bad flaw if it didn't carry over. But the training valour bonus only applies to the unit you train, ie the game on the stratmap "doesn't know" that these knights can also dismount and form footknights, so that's why you don't get more bonus.
If you want to make the foot bonus work, then you have to hope for rebellions there or that a crusade might raise some CFKs or GFKs, who will then have the valour bonus, I think.
The other way is to mod your game and allow footknights to be trainable. I did this, but limited them only to these two provinces, I also upped their number from 40 to 60 men and when you manage to get all the requirements together, you can train some really fearful infantry units in Ile de France and Brandenburg, however, Gothics are still restricted to HRE and Italy, but any Catholic faction can train CFKs in Ile de France. It's a good modification, because the AI will build up a province that gives valour bonus in order to get this specific unit, thus you will see a citadel in France quite early.

About the valour bonus for ChivKnights. it think this shouldn't come from master horse breeder alone, I don't know whether it is currently given at all, but in my opinion, a master spearmaker and the master horse breeder together should confer that bonus.

[Revenant69]

I tested this and Master Horse Breeder does not give the valour bonus to the Chivalric Knights. I had valour 1 CKs coming out of Toulouse even though I though they'd be valour 2. Perhaps the highest form of royal court is necessary to conferr the bonus (what is it, Baronial court? I forget). I will test this later on today.

Rev

EDIT: Nope, I couldnt squeeze out the extra 1 valour from Toulouse for CKs. Actually even regular Feudal Knights didnt get a valour bonus even though I had a Master Armorer, Baronial Court (highest it can go) and Master Horse Breeder - all the prerequisite buildings for trainingthem (and teh buildings were maxed).

Oh well.

[Servius]

someone once told me that knights get their valor bonus from teh highest Royal Court buildling, Baronal Court or Estate or something. The trouble is I haven't been able to build that last Royal Court building at all. Twice now, once with England and once with Spain, I've been in the High period, with a Fortress and the 2nd to last Royal Count building, and I could not build the last one.

Is there another building prereq for this building? Do I have to be in Late before I can build it?

And from that last poster, are you saying that even with that building Knights still don't get a valor bonus from it?

If that's true it's one more thing I'm gonna have to mod fix. Enabling the Foot Knights and boosting them to 60 is a good idea. Did you also jack up their build and upkeep costs by 50% to go along with the 50% increase in unit size?

[*Ringo*]

Quote[/b] (Servius1234 @ Feb. 04 2004,00:15)]someone once told me that knights get their valor bonus from the highest Royal Court building, Baronial Court or Estate or something. The trouble is I haven't been able to build that last Royal Court building at all. Twice now, once with England and once with Spain, I've been in the High period, with a Fortress and the 2nd to last Royal Count building, and I could not build the last one.

Is there another building prereq for this building? Do I have to be in Late before I can build it?
I believe only the Germans and Italians get this building as it is a prerequisite for Gothic Knights http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif (Now i'm sure i read that somewhere) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

*Ringo*

[Servius]

Spanish need it for Lancers don't they?

Also, Knights should also get a +1 Valor bonus from Master Horse Breeders, especially now if only Ger and Ita can build the Baronal Estate. I gotta find out how to do that.

[Brutal DLX]

I think the support costs are calculated on a per man basis, so there isn't really a need to meddle with this, unless you are still not satisfied with their cost.

I don't think the Chiv Knights bonus is currently given, as said before, but you can mod it, either tie it to the Baronial Court (which then should be enabled for all Catholic factions) or try to be creative and use mutliple buildings that need to be constructed to get that bonus.

[cutepuppy]

Quote[/b] (*Ringo* @ Feb. 04 2004,03:37)]I believe only the Germans and Italians get this building as it is a prerequisite for Gothic Knights http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif (Now i'm sure i read that somewhere) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

*Ringo*
True, only the Italians and germans get it, but it doesn't give any valour bonus.


Quote[/b] ]
Spanish need it for Lancers don't they?


no, lancers need master horse breeder, master armourer and master spearmaker.

[Servius]

okay, I've gone into the build_prod file and put a Valor upgrade in for Baronal Court, which is the 2nd to last Royal Court building and the last one everyone can build. I'm going to go test whether this building will give the valor bonus to knights.

[Servius]

Update:

Even when the Baronal Court (Chiv Knight one) gives a valor bonus, Knights still don't get it. Even with a modded BC AND a Master Horse Breeder, Knights still don't get a valor bonus.

Interestingly though, I did a mod for foot knights, where I made them buildable and require everything their mounted version requires save the horse building. In those cases, where I was still using a Baronal Court that gave a +1 valor and was required for the Foot Knights, the FKs DID get the valor bonus (obviously from the Baronal Court and not from the Armourer).

So I really have no idea what the problem with Knights and valor bonuses is. If the problem stems from the fact that two Unit Producer buildings are required, then Lancers, which require a Master Horse Breeder and a Master Spearmaker, also should not get a valor bonus. If they do, then the problem is with the Knight units themselves and not with the buildings that produce them.

[Brutal DLX]

I'm not familiar with the buildings file, but can you assign valour bonus tied to a single unit there? If so, then are you sure you assigned the Baronial court bonus to Chivalric Knights and not to Footknights only?
Also, where did you build the footknights? If you built them in Brandenburg or Ile de France, that will give you a +1 bonus anyway.
Also, what footknights are you talking about? Chivs or Gothics or Feudals?

Edit: The Baronial Court is the highest one, it's not the one for Chiv Knights, but needed for Gothic units. Remebering an old post, I dug this up: Valour bonus of buildings (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=4518;hl=gallowglass)
While this is from MTW 1.1, I suppose the building valour assignment hasn't been touched for VI, thus it appears the Baronial court already gives the valour bonus to all knight units, only the Gothic units would need an extra retraining turn to get it. So, to test this, enable the Baronial court to be buildable for other factions and then try again in an otherwise unmodded game.

[Servius]

you can't select certain units to recieve a valor bonus, you can just assign a certain building to give one to the troop type it produces. For example, the swordsmith buildings, only the last one is set to give a valor bonus. Thus, if/when you build it, all the units that are produced by a sword building, no matter what level of the building, recieve a valor bonus. Feudal MAAs, Gallowglasses, Chiv MAAs, etc.

Because Royal Knights can only be trained, and only require the Royal Court line of buildings, those are designated as "Troop Producer" buildings. The current theory with valor bonuses and units that require more than one "Troop Producer" buildings is that, somewhere in the game code, there is a priority list that the game uses to decide which of those buildings the unit will draw its valor bonus from.

Horse archers, Lancers, Knights, and Gendarmes are like this.

About the Baronal Court/Estates thing, I tested it already. In the build_prod file, only Germans and Italians can build the BE and neither the BC or the BE gave a valor bonus. If the Gothic units were getting valor bonuses it wasn't from the Baronal Estate. It must have been from either the region or from the other Troop Producer building required to build them.

The way I tested it was to mod the Baronal Court, the one Chiv Knights require, to give a valor bonus. With that mod in, Chiv Knights did not recieve a valor bonus with either the BC nor even when I build a Master Horse Breeder in the province too.

However, the Chiv Foot Knights, which I modded in and required the Baronal Court and Armour Guild to make, DID get a valor bonus from the Baronal Court.

From all this I think...

a) either there is something about Knights that prevents them from ever getting a valor bonus from buildings or
b) there is some bug associated with units that require two different Troop Producer buildings from getting a valor bonus.

I'm gonna go test "b" by trying to build some Lancers with a valor bonus.

[cutepuppy]

Quote[/b] (Servius1234 @ Feb. 05 2004,06:58)]So I really have no idea what the problem with Knights and valor bonuses is. If the problem stems from the fact that two Unit Producer buildings are required, then Lancers, which require a Master Horse Breeder and a Master Spearmaker, also should not get a valor bonus. If they do, then the problem is with the Knight units themselves and not with the buildings that produce them.
It is certainly not the fact that two buildings are involved. I have trained valor 2 pronoiai allagion in Nicaea (1 province bonus, 1 from master horse breeder), also byzantine cavalry or mounted sergeants get a bonus from the master horse breeder (all those units need 2 or 3 troop producing building types). Lancers don't get bonuses.
I think that a unit that really needs the highest level building, doesn't get the bonus. Or, more generally, if a certain level of troop producing building gives a certain valor bonus, the troops that need that building level for their training, won't get the bonus, but they will get the bonus from higher level buildings. (anyone who understands this sentence from the 1st time???)

So, if you give the baronial court a valor 1 bonus, chivalric knights wouldn't get the bonus (because they NEED this building), but feudals would have it.

To be honest, I didn't really tested this theory, but I experienced some facts of it (Pavise arbalests don't get the valor bonus from master bowyer, but normal arbalests do), so I guess it is right.

[Servius]

a good way to test this would be to enable the Baronal Estate for, say, England, and mod it to provide a valor bonus, then bulid one and see if English Chiv Knights get a bonus from it.

If this works, it would work for Chiv Knights and the lot, but not for units who require Master-level buildings like Gothic Sergeants, Knights, Lancers, etc.

[Fragony]

You can only give knights valour with a master horse breeder, unless it is a +1 province. This makes toullouse so much fun, valour 2 chivalric knights. Bring on the lancers spain ;)

viva la france

[Servius]

well, no, that's the problem we're having. Master Horse Breeder does not give any Knights a valor bonus, though you're right that Toulouse does.

Well, I should say at least no one else I've spoken to has gotten a valor bonus from the MHB for knights. I've gotten them for light cav like Hobilars, Mounted Sergeants, Turcopoles, etc., but not the heavy cavalry Knight units.

Have you actually gotten +2 valor Chiv Knights in Toulouse that didn't have any general stars? If so, could you attach your build_prod and unit_prod files to this thread, cause somewhere in there you'll have the missing link we've been looking for.

[Brutal DLX]

I think you didn't catch a certain part in the old link I provided. It states that units that require the highest level building for training need to be put in the training queue again for retraining to get the valour bonus the buildign provides to that troop type.
Now, if you modded the Baronial court to give +1 valour and didn't change the Baronial Estate to not give that bonus anymore (since it's the higher level building) , that could mess your results up. In the old post, people claimed it was possible to get +1 ChivKnights if there was a highest level Royal palace (Baronial Estate) present, thus either don't mod anything and test it with HRE or Italy first or make the Baronial Estate available for another faction without changing anything else. If it still doesn't work, then I don't know what else could be done about it.

[Servius]

I enabled the valor bonus for Baronal Court, there was no bonus associated with the Baronal Estate.

I tried the retraining, both on Chiv Knights AND Feudal Knights, neither of which got a valor bonus. I've got another test model up now for the Spanish and I'm gonna go test that "must be a higher level building than the one required to build" idea with some Feudal Knights again.

After that I'll try enabling the Baronal Estate for England and see what happens.

[Kulgan]

I think the bonusses for Gothik and Chivalric foot knights are useless unless you mod them in as you can't build them without modding them in.
The foot knights and mounted knights are 2 different units.
Though I recommend everyone to mod in these units ( and all others like Turcopoles, Feudal Foot knigts etc ) into your game, it makes the game much more fun to me at least http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

My personal favourite modded in unit are the Hospitaller Foot knights, the foot version of the Italian Order knights who form a class on their own when dismounted unlike the other order knights.
They are really good and their picture is about the coolest around. I mean the picture when you look at their stats.

[Servius]

yep, I think you're right. I have modded in every Foot Knight unit save the Hosp. Foot Knight cause Hops. Knights I still only have appear with Crusades and, honestly, their FK version is useless in the desert.

I also have modded every cav unit to be dismountable. I even have Jinetes dismount as Spanish Javelinmen and Mounted Sergeants dismount as Feudal Sergeants. Most of these I wouldn't ever dismount, but I just think it's how it should be. Not being able to get off your horse, feh

Also, no valor bonus for Lancers. It seems the problem is that no unit can get a valor bonus if the building that usually provides the bonus IF that building is required to build the unit. Thus, Gothic Knights/Foot Knights, Lancers, etc. will never be able to get a valor bonus from a building.