Viking Bondi

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

This might seem like a stupid question, but what was a Viking Bondi? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Any explanation would be greatly apreciated... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Plantagenet]

Bondi were "bonders", free-hold farmers/non-noble warriors, equivalent to Thegns I think (below Jarls & Karls but above Thralls).

[Kalle]

Hello, never heard the phrase vikingbondi but bonde is the swedish word for farmer so most likely it means what plantagenet says.

Throughout swedens history the majority of farmers were free as opposed to most other countries (at least european).

Kalle

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thanks, Plantagenet and Kalle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

Finally the mist over my knowledge has been lifted. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

So, Bondi or Bonde can be different words used according to different places (Denmark, Sweden, Norway)? Or the correct word is always Bonde? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Kalle]

Well in the distant passed the scandinavians had no trouble understanding eachother as they spoke the same language, development saw diffrent forms of the language grow thus words took on diffrent shapes so its very likely though im not sure that norwegians and/or danes say bondi while swedes say bonde.

Scandinavians still understand eachother very well as languages are very similar but the danes are a bit hard as it seems they all got sumthin stuck in their throat when they speak http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Kalle

[Cazbol]

"Bóndi" is most likely the older version of the two. It's still written like that today in Icelandic, which is that of the Scandinavian languages which has changed the least since the viking era.

[Kalle]

Cant argue with those wise words of Casbol, true indeed.

Kalle

[Hakonarson]

bondi were the freemen, farmer, "yeomen" in Viking society.

In the army the Huscarles (of various ranks) were the elite, and the Bondi the bulk - not so well equipped but still competant.

In home-based armies the bondi formed the bulk of the Leidang - the general call-out for home defence.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Scandinavians still understand eachother very well as languages are very similar but the danes are a bit hard as it seems they all got sumthin stuck in their throat when they speak http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Luckilly, I'm not a Dane in disguise http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif




Quote[/b] ]"Bóndi" is most likely the older version of the two. It's still written like that today in Icelandic, which is that of the Scandinavian languages which has changed the least since the viking era.
That dissipates my doubts. Much apreciated, Lord Cazbol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif




Quote[/b] ]bondi were the freemen, farmer, "yeomen" in Viking society.

In the army the Huscarles (of various ranks) were the elite, and the Bondi the bulk - not so well equipped but still competant.

In home-based armies the bondi formed the bulk of the Leidang - the general call-out for home defence.
Great info Thank you indeed, Lord Hakonarson http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif


So, we can include the game's "Landsmen" and "Carls" in the Bóndi social class?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Another thing I forgot to ask:

What are the singular and plural designations for Bóndi?

[Kalle]

In swedish it would be;

en bonde = one farmer
flera bönder = several farmers

The ö in bönder is pronounced as the u in the word church.

Kalle

[Cazbol]

What are the singular and plural designations for Bóndi?

In Icelandic the plural for "bóndi" is "bændur" and has been that way since at least the late 12th century and most likely much longer.

Seeing old texts you may come across other forms because Icelandic and the old common language (usually referred to as Danish back then) has 4 cases, with "bóndi" and "bændur" being the nominative case.

So, we can include the game's "Landsmen" and "Carls" in the Bóndi social class?

I would definitely call landsmen (landsmenn) and carls (karlar) for bændur as almost every free man was a farmer back then and the chiefs/jarls/kings did not have large standing armies but relied on the free men to support them in battle.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Fantastic, Kalle and Cazbol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked2.gif

I feel lucky to be able to relly on your knowledge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

I think I'm going to abuse your patiente you a little more... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

I'm doing a MOD for MTW. It started as an attempt at MOD learning, as well as for some minor balance changes (Rebels more agressive, archer units more powerfull, more balanced factions and Historical corrections - specially Byzantine units).

Since your knowledge of the Viking Era is vast, I'll try to reap the beneficts of it.

I'm trying to make a spear unit exclusive to the Danes (unfortunatelly I haven't had time to add factions like the Svens or Norse yet - in fact I haven't added any faction).

Besides Historical curiosity, the Bóndi question was related to that specific spear unit.

Could you please tell me if there is logic in CA's aproach to VI Viking units?

And if so, are the names of the Viking units correct?

Are Huscarle and Huscarles the right designations?

Are Landsmann and Landsmenn the right designations?

Are Karl and Karls the right designations?

Are Thrall and Thralls the right designations?

Is it correct to make a Bóndi (singular) and Baendur (plural) the names of a spearmen unit?

What's your opinion, since this concerns you more than anyone?

[Cazbol]

Could you please tell me if there is logic in CA's aproach to VI Viking units?

Finding different names for viking units and even thinking of different viking units is a bit of a challenge but CA has in my view done a pretty good job considering the difficulty of the task.

When I first got VI and saw that the royal units were called huscarles I really had a laugh. Huscarles ("húskarlar"-pl.; "húskarl"-sing.) really means housemen. These were free men that did not own land and therefore lived with and served free men that did. They lived in a bóndi's house and thus were his housemen. In effect, they were farm hands because agriculture was about the only industry back then. However, I may have been a bit too quick to judge. As others pointed out the kings' elite also seem to have been referred to as huscarles. The reason for this common name is probably that both types of men were living in the house of another man and thus were his housemen. The difference was that if the owner of the house was a farmer then his housemen would naturally be farmhands, but if the owner of the house was a king or a warlord, then his housemen would naturally be professional warriors and serve as the king's bodyguards. To sum up, most huscarles were simple farmhands, but some weren't and thus it's not wrong to refer to the royal units as huscarles.

Berserks (english version of "berserkir" (plural), "berserkr" in singular): It was believed that some men had the ability or tendency go berserk, enter a rage called "berserksgangr", during which they'd know no fear and become resistant to weapons. This ability was believed to run in the family. In my view a fine job on CA's part.

Thralls (english version of "þrælar" (pl.), "þræll" in singular): Really just the slaves but with lives resembling normality compared to the slaves of many other cultures. Thralls would be living in the farmers house like huscarles and generally not be bound in chains. They were however without rights and obviously not free to leave. These were most commonly celtic people.

Viking raider cavalry: Vikings generally did not fight on horseback which explains why the MTW unit is so weak. In my first viking battles I didn't use any raider cavalry. As a result my battles always turned into a terribly long chase after the enemy routers, so I realised that some weak viking cavalry is a necessity.

The rest of the viking forces would pretty much be "bændur" and CA have simply presented them with 2 unit types, landsmen (countrymen) and carles (men). This is pretty much like calling them "some guys" and "some dudes" but is quite understandable since it really isn't easy finding a proper unit names for such farmers as the early viking armies weren't very organised with specialist troops in tactical formations. You just assembled the men you could get equipped with whatever weapons you could get and slugged it out with the enemy. The non-English versions of landsmen would be "landsmenn"-pl. and "landsmaður"-sing. The equivalent for carles would be "karlar"-pl. and "karl"-singl.

Is it correct to make a Bóndi (singular) and Baendur (plural) the names of a spearmen unit?

It seems quite logical to call them bændur. At least as logical as anything else.

I've tried to think of possible alternative unit names but haven't had much success. The only one I can think of at the moment is "leysingjar"-pl., "leysingi" in singular. These were former thralls that had been given their freedom as a reward for loyal service to their master. They had the same rights as any free men but having been a thrall was always somewhat shameful.

[Kalle]

I really dont know much about what viking battle units were called. I think Cazbol say many good things.

I would like to add a litterary tip;

Snorre Sturluson the islandic 13th century writer who probably is the greatest (written) source for knowledge about the vikings and their society.

In the epos "Nordiska Kungasagor" ("Norse Kingsagas" or something like that would be english translation and im poitively sure there must be an english translation of Snorres work as he is worldfamous) composed about 1230-1240ad he tells the story of the vikings and the nordic kingdoms the way they had been passed oraly for generations, where information was missing one can safely assume he added what he thought was fitting but still its great reading.

You will find the names of kings and heroes for every viking faction u wanna make and also very likely the names of diffrent battleformations such as the;

"sköldborg" (shieldwall or shieldfortress i guess would be english word) In medieval total war the shieldwall would be men put on hold formation and hold ground.

and "gristryne" (pigface lol). in medieval tw. this formation would be the triangular offensive formation.

The men in big battles were divided into "fylkingar" which i guess would be like a company or battalion or something like that. I dont really imagine they had specific spearunits and or axe/sword units, i think each man used the weapon he had and was lined up along his relatives and/or friends - men he knew he could rely on regardless if one had sword or axe. In a game mod this would be hard to create though i guess.

One thing i know is that the bodyguards, or the fighters closest to the king or ruler was called "hird", used by all the "viking nations" in fact its a very old germanic word that was in widespread use but prolly the word survived longer in the north.

Kalle

[Cazbol]

"Hirð" means court. The royal bodyguard were therefore a part of the hirð but they weren't the only members. For instance the "hirðskáld" is the court poet, but I think it's fair to assume that the bodyguards formed the bulk of the hirð. Come to think of it, the members of a hirð are called "hirðmenn"-pl., or "hirðmaður"-sing.

Good point on Snorri's writing. Someone posted a link to a website with an English translation of Snorri's Norse Kingsaga's or "Heimskringla". I've got it bookmarked at work and will post it tomorrow.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

*processing* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

*information overload* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

*processing* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

*information overload* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

*processing* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif



LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I seem to have pushed the right buttons. And now I'm having trouble keeping up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin.gif

Great info http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif


Quote[/b] ]I've tried to think of possible alternative unit names but haven't had much success. The only one I can think of at the moment is "leysingjar"-pl., "leysingi" in singular. These were former thralls that had been given their freedom as a reward for loyal service to their master. They had the same rights as any free men but having been a thrall was always somewhat shameful.
Well, I think I'm gonna use the bændur word for the unit. I really wanted a unit of Vikings, so I'm going to stick with it. But the information about the leysingjar is really interesting. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

I decided to use the native words and not the English translations. Unfortunatelly I can't represent the symbol þ for the Thrall word. I believe i'll have to use T.
Is this symbol's fonetic the same aproximate sound as T?
I know it isn't that important, since everybody knows the translation, but...




Quote[/b] ]Snorre Sturluson the islandic 13th century writer who probably is the greatest (written) source for knowledge about the vikings and their society.

In the epos "Nordiska Kungasagor" ("Norse Kingsagas" or something like that would be english translation and im poitively sure there must be an english translation of Snorres work as he is worldfamous) composed about 1230-1240ad he tells the story of the vikings and the nordic kingdoms the way they had been passed oraly for generations, where information was missing one can safely assume he added what he thought was fitting but still its great reading.
Great tip, thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif




Quote[/b] ]I dont really imagine they had specific spearunits and or axe/sword units, i think each man used the weapon he had and was lined up along his relatives and/or friends - men he knew he could rely on regardless if one had sword or axe. In a game mod this would be hard to create though i guess.
Yes, I know that. Historically it was so. But in the game that is not possible to implement. The system works with units built out of copies of the same individual.




Quote[/b] ]Good point on Snorri's writing. Someone posted a link to a website with an English translation of Snorri's Norse Kingsaga's or "Heimskringla". I've got it bookmarked at work and will post it tomorrow.
Thank you in advance, Lord Cazbol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif



Thanks to both of you, I can be sure that I'm a little less ignorant about Scandinavian History, Traditions and Language. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Feb. 03 2004,17:33)]I decided to use the native words and not the English translations. Unfortunatelly I can't represent the symbol þ for the Thrall word. I believe i'll have to use T.
Is this symbol's fonetic the same aproximate sound as T?
I know it isn't that important, since everybody knows the translation, but...
You could try this:
Alt-232 = Þ (upper case), useful for some smilies :Þ
Alt-231 = þ (lower case)
This is the Icelandic letter "þorn" [thordn] and is pronounced as "th" in words like thunder or three. Icelandic scribes found the latin alphabet to be missing a letter representing this sound and therefore stole this letter from ancient English or something similar in the 12th century.

The ð in hirð is Alt-208.

The link I promised to Heimskringla is
Heimskringla (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/)

[Norseman]

Although Cazbol and others have answered you very well, I thought I could add the unit roster I have in mind for the Viking factions in "Fury of the Northmen Mod". I have chosen English names for them for game play reasons.

My main source is the previously mentioned "Saga of the Norse Kings" by Snorre. I have it right here beside me, and have read it over and over again. I enjoy it just as much every time, IMO a MUST read http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif


Freemen (Bondis)
The free farmers, fishermen and artisans in a viking community, the rank and file fighters in a Jarl's or local chieftain's wartime army.

They will be armed with spears in the mod but without the rank bonus, as vikings fought man on man and not as a unit.

Norse Freemen
The normal Freemen unit won't be trainable on the West coast of Norway. Instead you will get Norse Freemen.
The West Coast of Norway is slightly different from other Viking regions. They were hardier, much less fertile and more warlike. Many of the smaller raiding forces came from these regions.

Fewer in numbers than the normal Freemen, but armed with axes instead of spears and with slightly better stats.

Housecarls
These men are full time warriors, handpicked among the freemen and serves in a Jarl's or Chieftain's hird.

Will be much like Norse Freemen, but with better stats.

Berserks
Need I say more? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hirdmen
The bodyguard unit of the King and his sons. They are warriors known for their bravery, strength, skill and fierceness in battle. A rich king can have a large hird(train more units).

Jomsvikings
These will only be available in one region, by building Jomsborg(castle of the Jomsvikings) which will be a unique building. They will be something in between Hirdmen and Housecarls stats-wise.



These units will be the core units for a Viking faction.

Later on, when a certain level on the Tech-tree is reached(probably fort), the King will be able to raise an army not only based on the easily shattered loyalty of Jarls and freemen.
Available units will then be the Viking raider cavalry, archers and spearmen. This was the case with the Danes, who around the year 1000 built at least 3 fortifications (Trelleborg, Fyrkat, Aggersborg) with the purpose of training a more proper army. The Freemen units will represent the later Leidang as well.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Although Cazbol and others have answered you very well, I thought I could add the unit roster I have in mind for the Viking factions in "Fury of the Northmen Mod". I have chosen English names for them for game play reasons.

My main source is the previously mentioned "Saga of the Norse Kings" by Snorre. I have it right here beside me, and have read it over and over again. I enjoy it just as much every time, IMO a MUST read
Thanks for the confirmation. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

BTW, your "Fury of the Northmen Mod" map is awesome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif The scope of your MOD seems so vast http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

I'm looking forward to playing it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif



Quote[/b] ]Jomsvikings
These will only be available in one region, by building Jomsborg(castle of the Jomsvikings) which will be a unique building. They will be something in between Hirdmen and Housecarls stats-wise.
Why? Shouldn't they be better than anyone else? Legendary warriors?




Quote[/b] ]These units will be the core units for a Viking faction.

Later on, when a certain level on the Tech-tree is reached(probably fort), the King will be able to raise an army not only based on the easily shattered loyalty of Jarls and freemen.
Available units will then be the Viking raider cavalry, archers and spearmen. This was the case with the Danes, who around the year 1000 built at least 3 fortifications (Trelleborg, Fyrkat, Aggersborg) with the purpose of training a more proper army. The Freemen units will represent the later Leidang as well.
Nice historical accuracy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

In apreciation for everyone's efforts in explaining the Viking heritage, specially Cazbol and Kalle, I have some in-construction (just new text really) pics of the Viking units for my Medieval MOD.


http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Aymar%20de%20Bois%20Mauri%20-%20%fer%e6lar.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Aymar%20de%20Bois%20Mauri%20-%20Karlar.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Aymar%20de%20Bois%20Mauri%20-%20B%e6ndur.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Aymar%20de%20Bois%20Mauri%20-%20Landsmenn.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Aymar%20de%20Bois%20Mauri%20-%20H%faskarlar.jpg


BTW Cazbol, the þ or Þ does not appear in-game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif No equivalent font I believe... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

[Cazbol]

Pretty neat. I look forward to seeing the completed mod.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Pretty neat. I look forward to seeing the completed mod.
Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif I'm looking forward to finishing it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin.gif



One last question:
Should I rename Húskarlar as Hirðmenn and use the Royal palace as a requirement? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
Should I rename Húskarlar as Hirðmenn and use the Royal palace as a requirement?


IMO you should, because any jarl or chieftain had housecarls(fulltime warriors), while Hirdmenn were the best warriors available(or hireable) in the kings realm. They were the king's housecarls, but their exceptional skills put them in a class above the normal housecarl.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]IMO you should, because any jarl or chieftain had housecarls(fulltime warriors), while Hirdmenn were the best warriors available(or hireable) in the kings realm. They were the king's housecarls, but their exceptional skills put them in a class above the normal housecarl.
So, since the Húskarlar of VI (that I use) don't have the same stats as MTW's Housecarls, I should consider them (Húskarlar) as the King's men? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif

So, the corresponding Húskarlar are more of an elite? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking2.gif

Yes, you're probably right. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif I'm going to call them Hirðmenn and only allow prodution with the Royal Palace requirement. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
Quote
Jomsvikings
These will only be available in one region, by building Jomsborg(castle of the Jomsvikings) which will be a unique building. They will be something in between Hirdmen and Housecarls stats-wise.

Why? Shouldn't they be better than anyone else? Legendary warriors?


Well, I think I can safely say that they are a bit too good in VI...

In Heimskringla it is described a battle between the Norwegian King and an army almost entirely made up of Jomsvikings.

The Jomsvik army sailed up along the coast of Norway, taking the Norse King by surprise. He didn't have time to gather his full army, but had to rely on the Hird he had with him and the warriors and freemen of the region(NW coast of Norway).

All in all the Norse outnumbered the Danes by approx. 2-3 to 1 in ships, when they clashed on the fjord. However, the Danes had a warfleet with large longships built for battle. They were tall, and had large crews. The Norse fleet was rather a gathering of whatever was available on short notice, with only a few longships built primarily for war. Thus the Danish fleet had an advantage in everything, except numbers and a long way home.

It was a hard fought battle with many losses on both sides, but the Norwegians eventually won and the Jomsvik Jarl actually ordered to retreat before the battle was fought to its end. Some ships were unable to disengage the fight, and their crews were either killed or captured.

As far as I know, this is one of the very few big battles mentioning the Jomsvikings.

To conclude, the Jomsvikings were undoubtedly brave and fierce warriors, but IMO hardly better than the Kings Hirdmen if fighting on equal terms.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Well, I think I can safely say that they are a bit too good in VI...

In Heimskringla it is described a battle between the Norwegian King and an army almost entirely made up of Jomsvikings.

The Jomsvik army sailed up along the coast of Norway, taking the Norse King by surprise. He didn't have time to gather his full army, but had to rely on the Hird he had with him and the warriors and freemen of the region(NW coast of Norway).

All in all the Norse outnumbered the Danes by approx. 2-3 to 1 in ships, when they clashed on the fjord. However, the Danes had a warfleet with large longships built for battle. They were tall, and had large crews. The Norse fleet was rather a gathering of whatever was available on short notice, with only a few longships built primarily for war. Thus the Danish fleet had an advantage in everything, except numbers and a long way home.

It was a hard fought battle with many losses on both sides, but the Norwegians eventually won and the Jomsvik Jarl actually ordered to retreat before the battle was fought to its end. Some ships were unable to disengage the fight, and their crews were either killed or captured.

As far as I know, this is one of the very few big battles mentioning the Jomsvikings.

To conclude, the Jomsvikings were undoubtedly brave and fierce warriors, but IMO hardly better than the Kings Hirdmen if fighting on equal terms.
OK Suits me fine... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif