How Do you do the Ambush successfully?

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi everybody

Could someone explain the whole ambush procedure to me?
I know that a successfull one lets drop the valour of the enemy units. But how exactly do you do it?
I tried one somewhere in Britannia. The enemy started on a cliff/ steep hill which he only could decend left and right to take on my army. I hid celtic warriors in the woods on the slopes left and right. The enemy general got suspicious and sent scouts to discover my position. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Another one was like this: The two armies face each other on a plain. On one side there's a slope with forest. In it are hidden 3 units of cavalry. As soon as the battle starts the one unit of 26 middle cavalry gets nervous because of the position on a hill http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif and starts to charge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif ????????????
How the hell do you do it? Does the success depend on the enemys general? Any replays avaiable to teach me the proper handling? Arrgh

[Imperial Buffoon]

Hi
Someone may be able to be more precise than me but here goes:
The second description: as far as I know, you can't hide cavalry or your general (woods or no woods), and that includes your general when it's in a unit (Hashishin) that can be hidden. So even if they had not charged, they would've been seen.
The first one: that looks OK, but note that if the AI thinks there are "too many" (don't know how many, I think 3) units it can't see, it will start scouting.

I find it easier to set up an ambush when fighting "European Style": set up a large force in a place where it's visible and where it forces the enemy to go next to trees or in a valley. Put one or two infantry units with good attack in the forest and use fast cavalry further away as back-up(behind rather than in the forest or behind a slope). Even if the enemy sees your cavalry, he may not chase it if it's far enough.
Wait for him to come and squash him by attacking his flanks with your infantry and his rear with cavalry. Ideally, you want to pin the front of his line down with some kind of spearman unit or a disposable unit (peasants) if you think they can handle the initial impact.
Good luck
the B

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi Imperial Buffoon,

i could've been more precise. There was no general hiding.
But interesting to learn that you cannot hide cav? Why does the game tell me that they are hidden/covered. Also interesting to learn that when the AI misses too much of your troops he will go scouting. Clever Didn't expect that. Almost human, isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
What you decribe further sounds to me like a regular flanking manouever(?). Effectivly, of course, but I was looking for a more morale-crashing tactic.
Cheers

[Brutal DLX]

You can hide cavalry, just take missile units off fire at will.
The point for a successful ambush is to hide your troops not too close to their marching route, so that even if they will scout they won't spot you rigth away. The second point is to give them a clear bait. Put your general and some spears or the like where they can see you, send a unit of fast infantry or cavalry ahead to skirmish and make them pursue that unit right into the trap. Don't miss the right time to attack..it is crucial.

[R'as al Ghul]

Brutal DLX,

The point for a successful ambush is to hide your troops not too close to their marching route, so that even if they will scout they won't spot you rigth away.
won't they be too far away to surprise him?
Though dragging them behind a unit of mine into the trap sounds good. I'm going to give it a try.

[kawligia]

What exactly are the limits to recieve the "ambush" effect?

Do you just need to have previously covered units uncover themselves? Do you have to be a certain distance away? Or do you have to attack within so long after revealing yourself?

And I also assume that if you are discovered by an enemy unit getting to close you lose all the bonus, right?

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] ]I know that a successfull one lets drop the valour of the enemy units.
Don't you mean morale? Units who come out of hiding to attack a unit will inflict a morale penalty on their target. However, if you switch targets, the morale penalty will disappear. Anyway, a good ambush is at itself disruptive enough, so you should do it even if it didn't give your enemy an penalty.

[Kristaps]

I'm not sure about the exact stats, etc. but I have noticed, that, if I hide an army of militia units in the woods (at times I have 16 militia units in my border provinces playing as germans), some of them remain hidden even when enemy has engaged me. Once I charge with the hidden ones, the enemy routs (well, it has routed a few times) soon after...

[hoom]

I've had one of my armies rout from the ambush penalty http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

The enemy was formed up (& mostly hidden) almost entirely in a forest, then as my army came near, he charged out his army & my guys all panicked at all those spearmen appearing suddenly & ran away with few losses on either side http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ Feb. 02 2004,12:45)]Brutal DLX,

The point for a successful ambush is to hide your troops not too close to their marching route, so that even if they will scout they won't spot you rigth away.
won't they be too far away to surprise him?
Though dragging them behind a unit of mine into the trap sounds good. I'm going to give it a try.
It could be that they are too far to surprise him right away, you have to test out the right distance yourself, it is an experience thing and also dependent on the specific battle map and the ambush troops you are using. But even if it is too far to give an ambush penalty, you can still do a nice flank or rear attack and that in itself will complicate the situation immensely for your enemies, as Ludens said.
Thus, rather start setting up far away than too close, and then gradually decrease the distance in the next battles until you find your comfort zone.

[R'as al Ghul]

Thank you all, esp. Brutal_DLX

I'll try the ambush again until I'm able to hide my whole army in the open, appear right behind the enemy and route him without even striking at him....~:D
Cheers

[bhutavarna]

the key is misdirection and distraction.

instead of simply hiding all your troops in the woods, you strategically hide only a part of your troops, preferably the mounted ones. at the same time exposed the rest of your troops in the open as bait.

there are three methods of using this tactic that i use often.

first method is to place the ambush in the woods at front between the enemy and my exposed units. the enemy will usually march straight towards me without noticing the upcoming ambush. once they get close enough, i hit the ambush button, and depending on the situation i can either withdraw the ambusher after inflicting enough damage or bring up the rest of my units to finish the job.

second method is to place the ambush away from the bait. let the enemy go after the bait. once they're engaged, i hit them with the hidden units from behind.

third method is to use the bait to lead the enemy to the ambush. in this case i often use light cavalry as the bait and place the heavy units in the woods, including infantry.

of course the ambush will not always be successful. sometimes the enemy don't move the way you want them to, in which case you just have to adapt.

[Servius]

Didn't you see Gladiator? :-)

Remember the battle scene at the beginning? The cav was hidden in the woods, somewhere I guess to the flank/rear of the Germans. The Romans marched up their 'spearmen'/Legions which engaged and pinned the barbarians, and then the cav sprang from behind and whooped ass. The Germans, in real terms, suffered two kinds of morale hits, one from being ambushed, the other from getting hit from behind.

I know it's a movie and history buffs will point out lots of inaccuracies, but basically the same tactic shown there is what we're talking about here.

I'm guessing that in order to get the added "ambush" penalty, the hidden units must be issued an attack order while hidden. If they get a move order, or you switch targets like the other guy said, you probably lose that bonus. Also, the AI can see hidden units when its own units are about 50 man-spaces (two 4-ranks-deep spear units) away, so the effective teather range for the ambush penalty would have to be further than that I'd guess.

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ Feb. 04 2004,09:01)]Thank you all, esp. Brutal_DLX

I'll try the ambush again until I'm able to hide my whole army in the open, appear right behind the enemy and route him without even striking at him....~:D
Cheers
Hahahah.

Livy, describing one of Hannibals victories over Rome, once wrote words to the effect that "it was not the kind of ground you'd have thought you could stage an ambush in..."

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi guys

I did it It was great fun. I was defending one of the russian provinces against a 4* Rebell-Gen (remnants of the Horde) with my russian King.
2/3 units of fast steppe CAV were hidden in the middle of a huge forest on the right, while my main army was positioned in the open, stretched to the left with the GEN in the middle of the left flank.
The Enemy approached with his huge archers army. I backed up a bit and waited for him too approach even further, so that when I charge my CAV he won't be able to run away.
When most of his units went for my line, with the archers staying in the back and keeping on shooting, I charged the CAV out of the forest into the Archers.
Almost no survivors Had to let a few of them escape though to charge into their main line from behind. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
It went so well, that my King even got the virtue of the excellent defender, stating that is capable of laying ambushes (correct plural here?) and taking advantage of the Enemy's mistakes.
Thanks again for the hints
Cheers

[Brutal DLX]

Good job Now you only need to work at making your whole army invisible and use psy-strikes to kill them. Rumour has it that this can be achieved by your king getting the "Hopeless Alcoholic" and "Unhinged Loon" vices. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ludens]

Congratulations. But don't get overconfident. At higher difficulties, the AI checks if the visible number of units is lower then it should be. If this is the case, he will scout for ambushes. I found this out to my cost when I tried to hide my entire army, except for the general. The general, of course, cannot hide.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]At higher difficulties, the AI checks if the visible number of units is lower then it should be. If this is the case, he will scout for ambushes.

then you should make sure that he "finds" some of your hidden units, then lead him on by moving those "discovered" units to the real ambush area (or ambush areas, just in case the AI splits it`s forces).

plans within plans, deceptions within deceptions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[R'as al Ghul]

@Ludens,
I'm already playing on xpert, so I have had difficulties with the AI scouting. That was my point for asking in the first place. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Btw, I think this works out best when the enemy has no possibility to know the number of your troops. No watchtower, agent etc. to tell him.
@ katar,
excellent idea I'll try it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif


Cheers

[makkyo]

USE THE TREES AND WEATHER

'sall it gottah say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[lancer63]

Great ideas I've picked here for future ambushes, maybe someone can find some use for this one.
It's a defensive ambush mainly fit for big battles and can't be laid at the beginning of the battle, but after you route the first wave of enemies. I defeat the first wave (usually the enemy general either dies or runs like a hare with its tail on fire), I inevitably have a few units chase the routing mass, so I take advantage of that and send a couple of previously unengaged melee units, preferably fast and expendable, like gallows, kerns, highlanders and the like. Maybe some depleted archers with a healthy complement of ammo and, only if the area to hide in is big and thick enough, a fast horse unit.
After I hide my men I wait for reinforcements to come back let them pass on their way to my main force. the moment I spring the trap depends on a few factors like the composition of the second wave and my own commandos, distance between my ambush and main force and spacing between units.
It has worked more than once for me but it's hard to make it work, most times it doesn't, if it is succesful you can have a whole wave routing all the way to their exit point. This will considerably shorten the battle and save you a few men for further engagements. Just my 2 cents.

[Silencer]

has anyone tried this in VI?

Defensive battle, put all my troops on a hill.
one beserker unit somewhere deep in a forest. the AI comes past the forrest (large one) stops en sends 3 units trough that forrest (there were more then 4 forrests on that map). And my unit did not move at all.

this happened to me several times.... Is it cheating or just bad luck?

[Brutal DLX]

Don't know, maybe the AI just guessed right.. was it the forest closest to you or en route to you?

I've had it go the other way recently, defended Ile de France against the Spanish, with their main force advancing straight on me, some Jinetes rode through the forest on my right flank but I didn't hide any units there. Of course the AI failed to send units to my left flank woods where I hid 4 units of Swabians. The Spanish general was rather surprised but to his credit he didn't try to find out the top speed of his horse but rather found out about the sharpness of a good bihander. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]Defensive battle, put all my troops on a hill.
one beserker unit somewhere deep in a forest. the AI comes past the forrest (large one) stops en sends 3 units trough that forrest (there were more then 4 forrests on that map). And my unit did not move at all.

make sure that the tree icon appears in you unit stat box at the bottom of the screen.

if you have a unit in the trees and the icon doesn`t appear, then they are still visable.

if this happens try moving the unit slightly to see if you get the tree icon once they stop moving.

this has happened to me on many occasions and thats how i fixed it.

[Silencer]

the tree icon was visible and the forest was to the side.
the approaching army wasn't even near the the forest when it stopped, turnet and moved to the forest.

my troops never moved in the forest. I'm playing on expert, maybe that's the reason the AI has some eagles in the air?

[Nowake]

I don't know how's on other levels, but on expert he always checks the place your in. He may not check if:

1. it's too far and he doesn't sees it as a danger.
2. you are shrewd and place a forward unit in order to be discovered. With this you draw him away from the other camouflaged units.

There is no other way.

[EatYerGreens]

Old thread, but interesting. Thought I'd dig it up again. Will post separately about Hashishin, since what I was looking for wasn't covered here.

Not a lot I can add here but, as great as it is to stage a charge out from the trees, you can also hope for nothing better than the AI general scouting through the trees using some of his cavalry, rather than foot troops.

Instead of doing the ambush as originally planned, you can ambush the cav IN the woods and make the most of their 'poor (meleé) in woods' properties. If it's a total carve-up in your favour, it stops at least one mounted unit from being a menace to your archers, at a later stage of the battle.

All the better if the AI formation breaks up and a portion turns to one side in an attempt to rescue their struggling cav. If your main force is close enough, you could pounce, in strength, at this point. However, this is less than ideal if the plan was to retain the main force on a hilltop position and the ambusher force is way off, down in the valley somewhere.

The 'concealed' icon marker is also a good indication that your unit is getting protection against arrow fire, due to obstruction by treetops. I find that enemy HA units will happily stand off, exhaust their ammo uselessly and then withdraw from the map, in preference to risking a woods meleé against your inf.

The corollary of this is that your own archers will be equally ineffectual, when firing out of the woods. Click and drag to place them along the edge of the treeline, when required. I guess they either lose line-of-sight or it's simply a case of their shots getting tangled in the branches, if they're too deep into the trees.

I have fallen foul of this myself, one time and could even see the unit animation portraying only 3 out of 60 actually firing, which is a nice touch.