Push back and other bonusses

[Chaffers]

Being a demanding sort of a chap I tend to expect quite a lot from my heavy cavalry, considering their elite status and astronomical upkeep costs. Therefore I have tended to lead them from the front, particularly Royal Knights early in the game, charging enemy spear formations head on and such things. Those that live tend to get to higher realms of valour and those that die save me a pretty penny in upkeep costs.

Whether I charge in line abreast (my favourite) or in a column it works remarkably well, which just goes to show how much use spears are (though obviously the AI shies away from them with his horse). However after a charge in column formation I've noticed that the spearmen's line is kinked, surely therefore negating their rank and formation bonus? I also assume that the hardest, highest valour, chappie will be at the front therefore putting him at risk, but also having your best two or three men doing the fighting?

Does this push back effect have some sort of a bonus attributable to it and is a column attack a realistic possibility against some troop types? Clearly charging arbs with your King / Heir unit would be a remarkably good way to get him killed, but also maybe a good way to gain VnVs... They do after all get several lives to play with. I actually use it quite a lot, especially with my precious mounted Xbows when I either want them to charge into the rear of a general unit, or when facing direct fire weapons like arbs, purely hoping that they miss to the sides.

I have noticed that line abreast charges are remarkably good for getting a unit's valour up, particularly cav. It does mean afterall that every unit is hacking, or trying to hack at something, and that the effect of the charge itself is maximised. But I digress.

Are there any other obscure combat bonusses that one might need to know about?

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Greetings, oh thoughtful one named Chaffers, and welcome to the Entrance Hall.

You certainly are one for delving deep into the game and subject matter judging by your first two posts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif Alas, I am a surface feeder when it comes to the game, so can't really help answer your question - though, like you, I do look forward to finding out the answer.

[Ludens]

Chaffers, welcome to the Org.

You are mentioning the push-back effect of a cavalry charge. Cavalry charges tend to push back infantry, making the infantry more easy to kill and trowing them out of formation. Hold formation is supposed to lessen the push back of enemy cavalry.

I don't think that a column does much good. The idea behind it is that the second horseman adds impetus to the first, and the third to the second, and so on, but I don't think that the game takes this into account. This kind of push-tactics is traditionally used by spearmen and pikemen, and they have a formation bonus while cavalry don't. A line is a better way of charging, since it maximizes contact-surface and also allows you to wrap the cavalry around the flank. Flankers don't have to fight against the formation bonus.

Another thing you might be interested in is this post from Longjohn, one of the developers of the game.

Quote[/b] ]Charge bonus isn't directly related to charge speed, though possibly there could be an indirect effect. Let me explain what happens with charging soldiers, as maybe that'll help you.
A unit that has been charging for a short while (second or two) counts as charging. It also builds up some impetous based on how long it's been charging (though I think it's capped at around 3 secs). When a charging soldier hits an enemy he fights him. If he wins (pushes him back or kills hum), and doesn't suffer a push back himself, he carries on moving forwards, and fights anymore enemy he hits (including ones that he's just hit and pushed back). Each time he fights he loses a little impetus, and when he runs out he doesn't count as charging anymore, and has to fight in the normal way. The result of all this is that a charging soldier can fight (and maybe kill) several enemies in a short period of time. I guess that in some cases units with a higher charge speed could hit more enemy in a given time, and do more damage.
In general though it's a little tricky balancing infantry vs cavalry factors. Cavalry tend to be more powerful in the charge against infantry due to the bonues they get for pushing them back. OTOH once the charge is over, infantry do better than cav at the save factors, as inf are smaller, so more can fight on a given frontage.
Really you just have to do a lot of experimentation to get the effect you want.


Quote[/b] ]Are there any other obscure combat bonusses that one might need to know about?
The game is fraught with hidden bonuses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . More seriously, AFAIK the cavalry push back and the impetus-charge bonus are the only ones not mentioned in the combat calculation factors list in the New? Read this first-thread. But the only ones who know what is hidden in the game are the developers, and they seldom talk. Like Longjohn said, you'll have to experiment a lot to find it out.

[Chaffers]

Hmm.... Interesting.

I once charged my Steppe Cavalry into the flank of vanilla archers, Cav were in a column of 5 and archers were in 3 lines... My cavalry just seemed to go through them as though they wern't there. I don't know whether it would have happened with a line abreast attack...

I'd say that from my experience with using column attacks it seems to work, for what I want it for anyway. Often when I retrain a unit the men left will be at 2 or 3 valour, and I assume the general / officer of that unit is much higher. Now if I charged line abreast, say 20 x 4 then I know that many of those coming into contact with the enemy will be low valour, which generally means an attack of 0 for my Xbows. Not much use after the initial possibility of pushback as their charge is a measly 2.

By charging supposedly stronger units in column I ensure that the dudes at the front, and the only ones at risk, are hitting at 3 or 4 (I'm pretty sure the most experienced troops go to the front of the formation), generally with a rear attack, or at least a flank attack bonus. I'm more interested in the morale factors than actual deaths whilst trying to protect my Cav. With Steppe Cavalry it also makes it far easier to withdraw and recharge, even against other cavalry types.

Now I'm wondering whether unit fatigue and morale are calculated seperately for each soldier or simply as a units average? Would 4 men fighting out of 80 tire out the whole unit and would those individual troops suffer fatigue penalties despite the whole unit being on several bars? Can't say I've ever tried it for long enough to find out though it would be interesting to have a few 5 valour peasants tanking a column into melee. :)

[Ludens]

Chaffers, if you find that a cavalry-column works, than that is fine. But I suggest you test it in custom battles. Of course, in custom battles, every soldiers has identical valour.


Quote[/b] ]Now I'm wondering whether unit fatigue and morale are calculated seperately for each soldier or simply as a units average? Would 4 men fighting out of 80 tire out the whole unit and would those individual troops suffer fatigue penalties despite the whole unit being on several bars? Can't say I've ever tried it for long enough to find out though it would be interesting to have a few 5 valour peasants tanking a column into melee.
IIRC fatigue is calculated on individual basis, just like valour. However, the effect of morale is per unit and not per soldier, so even if it is calculated on individual basis, for practical purposes it can be assumed to be on group basis.

[Oberstein]

Hm, I haven't even considered the possibility of column charges. Have to try it later today.

[Puzz3D]

Ludens is right, but I'll elaborate somewhat based on my understanding of how it works.

Fatigue is calculated on an individual basis, and then averaged over the whole unit. A unit in hold formation with only some of its men fighting will fatigue slower than one in engage-at-will where typically most of the men are fighting. The combat and morale penalties for each fatigue state are appied to the whole unit. There are different fatigue rates for standing, marching, marching quickly, marching very quickly and fighting. There is a recovery rate that increases for lower fatigue states. The recovery rate equals the standing fatigue rate in the quite tired (2 bar) range. Armor increases these fatigue rates in adverse conditions such as desert, rain storms and snow storms. In these conditions, the recovery rate won't be enough to get a standing unit back up to quite tired (2 bar) level.

Morale is figured on a unit basis. For instance, when one flank is threatened the unit gets -2 morale, and when two flanks are threatened it gets -6 morale. Draw an imaginagy X over the center of a unit. The 90 degree quadrant to the front represents the front facing of the unit. The quadrants to each side are the two flanks, and the quadrant to the back is the rear of the unit. The rear counts as a flank. When morale drops below a certain threshold, all the men in the unit will rout. The unit can rally if it gets away from some of the things causing the morale penalties. If morale gets to impetuous level, a unit may charge without orders. I'm not aware of any effects other than those two due to morale state.

Morale is indirecly related to the unit formation by the morale penalty associated with the kill ratio in the previous combat cycle, and the penalty for total unit losses. Minimizing the casualty rate by using hold formation and small unit frontage will help keep the morale level up. A disadvantage of small frontage is that the sides of the men are more vulnerable to attack and enemy men who get to strike at the side of a man get a 250% combat bonus.