Byzantine units

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

As a lot of you know, CA's depiction of Byzantine units is "translated" from the original units names.

So, my question is this:

What names, for each of the Byz units, relating to the characteristcs of the unit in the game, is the most adequate?

1-Kataphraktoi

Kataphraktoi or Klibanophoroi?


2-Byzantine Infantry

Skutatoi or... ?


3-Byzantine Cavalry

Vardariots or Turcopoloi?


4-Byzantine Lancers

Stratiotai or... ?


What do you think or what do you know for sure? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[-Isapostolos-]

What I no for sure that Kataphraktoi were called Kataphraktoi.

Byzantine cavalry (the medium armoured, bow armed variant, light cavalry) weren't called Turcopoloi for sure. Turcopoloi or 'Turcopoles' were Christianised Turks who had joined Byzantine service. They did employ the role of light cavalry though.

[The Wizard]

Kataphraktoi were called kataphraktoi. That was, if I'm correct, only the designation for the royal guard (formerly known as the Kaballerika Prima), but I'm not sure. They weren't purely charge-cavalry, but rather expert in lance, bow and sword. The klibanophoroi were what the kataphraktoi are in MTW.

Byzantine infantry were called paroikoi, or rather "those that live near (the noble)" in the system that is relevant to MTW, the feudal pronoai system. The common cavalry in Byzantine armies were "knights", or rather the pronoai allagion, who were nobles that had pledged their military service to Alexius I Commenus. This system could not support large amounts of professional infantry, like the old themata system. Thus, the Empire came to rely on mercenaries more and more.

I'm note sure about the two other ones though...



~Wiz

[Spino]

Latinikon - Norman and/or 'Frankish' heavy cavalry. Essentially Catholic mercenary knights.

Oops, these units aren't really in the game unless you manage to find and hire knights from the mercenary pool but the Byzantines did use them, especially in the High and Later eras depicted in the game.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Byzantine cavalry (the medium armoured, bow armed variant, light cavalry) weren't called Turcopoloi for sure. Turcopoloi or 'Turcopoles' were Christianised Turks who had joined Byzantine service. They did employ the role of light cavalry though.
So what was their name? When I first saw them in the game, I thought they were the later period "lighter" evolution of the Kataphratkoi.




Quote[/b] ]Kataphraktoi were called kataphraktoi. That was, if I'm correct, only the designation for the royal guard (formerly known as the Kaballerika Prima), but I'm not sure. They weren't purely charge-cavalry, but rather expert in lance, bow and sword. The klibanophoroi were what the kataphraktoi are in MTW.
Yes, I agree. My initial impression was that one. Kataphratkoi weren't that heavilly armoured or slow as depicted in the image descriptions and the files.




Quote[/b] ]Byzantine infantry were called paroikoi, or rather "those that live near (the noble)" in the system that is relevant to MTW, the feudal pronoai system. The common cavalry in Byzantine armies were "knights", or rather the pronoai allagion, who were nobles that had pledged their military service to Alexius I Commenus. This system could not support large amounts of professional infantry, like the old themata system. Thus, the Empire came to rely on mercenaries more and more.
All infantry was paroikoi? Or is that a general term for Infantry?

What about Skutatoi or Kontaratoi?




Quote[/b] ]Latinikon - Norman and/or 'Frankish' heavy cavalry. Essentially Catholic mercenary knights.

Oops, these units aren't really in the game unless you manage to find and hire knights from the mercenary pool but the Byzantines did use them, especially in the High and Later eras depicted in the game.
Yes, I know. But I was refering more to the native Byzantine units than the mercenary ones.

[kataphraktoi]

Kataphraktoi are heavy cavalry, mainly elite Tagmatic or first class Thematic cavalry. Though armed with lance and bow, they are encouraged to use only one weapon and one which they are good at.

Klibanophori are heavier heavy cavalry (they appear in 10th and possibly 11th century. They disappear after Manizkert.

note: in Byzantine sources, sometimes a heavy and even heavier cavalry is not distinguished, even confused together.

Byzantine Cavalry is just simply Kaballarika Themata, theoretically, each theme soldier is to present himself as a cavalrymen. They come in first, second and third classes with more if the quality is lower. Most often first class are preferred.

Scutati are the heavy infantrymen of the Byzantine army. most infantrymen were lightly or unarmoured men armed with the simple panoply of shield, sword and spear.

Stratioti, Vardariots and Turkopouli come much later.

Although, in the middle period of Byzantium, a lot of Turks were assimilated without the term Turkopouli as in later times.

Did u know the Byzantines onced had a Turmae of Persian cavalrymen from Persia under their leader Nasr (Theophobus)

Or that the Arab tribe Banu Habib were cavalrymen enlisted as proper Byzantine soldiers.

Cheers

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Feb. 05 2004,23:30)]
Quote[/b] ]Byzantine infantry were called paroikoi, or rather "those that live near (the noble)" in the system that is relevant to MTW, the feudal pronoai system. The common cavalry in Byzantine armies were "knights", or rather the pronoai allagion, who were nobles that had pledged their military service to Alexius I Commenus. This system could not support large amounts of professional infantry, like the old themata system. Thus, the Empire came to rely on mercenaries more and more.
All infantry was paroikoi? Or is that a general term for Infantry?

What about Skutatoi or Kontaratoi?
Paroikoi were purely Byzantine soldiers, not mercenaries. They were the feudal underlings of the pronoai allagion, the noblemen. They followed him into battle as reliable infantry.

Furthermore, I don't know if skutatoi or kontaratoi were paroikoi or not. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif



~Wiz

[Rosacrux]

Paroikoi wasn't excactly a term to categorize certain troop types - it was just a condition of some people who eould serve the local nobility under the imperial banner.

The Skutatoi (deriving from Scutum, later Scuton, the known Roman shield and later any oval shield) on the contrary were a certain troop type, even though it came to mean different things under different times.

Kontaratoi (from Kontos-Kondos = Lance, pike) were used briefly in the Byzantine armies and fairly late too.

Klivanophoroi is what MTW depicts as Kataphractoi, while Byzantine Cavalry comes closer to the actual Kataphracti. The Klivanophoroi (deriving directly from the Roman Clibanarii) were not used for many years, and by the 12th century didn't exist, and the same can be said about kataphractoi.

The Byzantine naming system is quite peculiar, since you can't tell what is what and who is who (do not even ask who is what).

The standard Byzantine cavalry (of a type that went into use during the 7th century AD and kept up until the 12th century) irregardless Thematic, Imperial - Tagmata - or else, was more or less kataphract, used lance, bow, mace (usually all of those) fought on horse or dismounted and was truely the first multi-purpose cavalry. Those are depicted in-game by the "Byzantine Cavalry", but that's a rather poor depiction.

And bear in mind that until the 11th century, the Byzantine armies had like 50-50% Cavalry-Infantry - sometimes the cavalry would be even more. Adopting, of course, to the people they mainly fought.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Kataphraktoi are heavy cavalry, mainly elite Tagmatic or first class Thematic cavalry. Though armed with lance and bow, they are encouraged to use only one weapon and one which they are good at.

Klibanophori are heavier heavy cavalry (they appear in 10th and possibly 11th century. They disappear after Manizkert.

But Klibanophoroi (or is it Klivanophoroi?) is what is depicted in the game as Kataphraktoi (or is it Kataphractoi?), or am I wrong?




Quote[/b] ]Byzantine Cavalry is just simply Kaballarika Themata, theoretically, each theme soldier is to present himself as a cavalrymen. They come in first, second and third classes with more if the quality is lower. Most often first class are preferred.
So should I call them Kaballarika Themata in my MOD?




Quote[/b] ]Scutati are the heavy infantrymen of the Byzantine army. most infantrymen were lightly or unarmoured men armed with the simple panoply of shield, sword and spear.
So, the Byzantine Infantry belongs in this classification, doesn't it?




Quote[/b] ]Did u know the Byzantines onced had a Turmae of Persian cavalrymen from Persia under their leader Nasr (Theophobus)

Or that the Arab tribe Banu Habib were cavalrymen enlisted as proper Byzantine soldiers.
Already in 500AD, Belisarius used quite a lot of foreign horse archers, lancers and alike.




Quote[/b] ]The Skutatoi (deriving from Scutum, later Scuton, the known Roman shield and later any oval shield) on the contrary were a certain troop type, even though it came to mean different things under different times.
Different meanings? So, different specific units got that same name throughtout the ages?




Quote[/b] ]Kontaratoi (from Kontos-Kondos = Lance, pike) were used briefly in the Byzantine armies and fairly late too.

Pike? What about Menaulatoi (or is it Menavlatoi)?




Quote[/b] ]Klivanophoroi is what MTW depicts as Kataphractoi, while Byzantine Cavalry comes closer to the actual Kataphracti. The Klivanophoroi (deriving directly from the Roman Clibanarii) were not used for many years, and by the 12th century didn't exist, and the same can be said about kataphractoi.
Good to know. I'm going to treat Kataphractoi as Klivanophoroi and Byzantine Cavalry as Kataphractoi.




Quote[/b] ]The Byzantine naming system is quite peculiar, since you can't tell what is what and who is who (do not even ask who is what).
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif Yeah Very confusing




Quote[/b] ]The standard Byzantine cavalry (of a type that went into use during the 7th century AD and kept up until the 12th century) irregardless Thematic, Imperial - Tagmata - or else, was more or less kataphract, used lance, bow, mace (usually all of those) fought on horse or dismounted and was truely the first multi-purpose cavalry. Those are depicted in-game by the "Byzantine Cavalry", but that's a rather poor depiction.
Yes, trully multi-purpose. But, didn't they appear for the first time in the 6th century AD, by the time of Belisarius and Justinian?




Quote[/b] ]And bear in mind that until the 11th century, the Byzantine armies had like 50-50% Cavalry-Infantry - sometimes the cavalry would be even more. Adopting, of course, to the people they mainly fought.
Yes, the practical, adaptable way of viewing things.

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] ]But Klibanophoroi (or is it Klivanophoroi?) is what is depicted in the game as Kataphraktoi (or is it Kataphractoi?), or am I wrong?

you are right


Quote[/b] ]So should I call them Kaballarika Themata in my MOD?

eeerrr...it doesn't sound very correct. although this name might have been used, i'm not sure it was the most common.


Quote[/b] ]So, the Byzantine Infantry belongs in this classification, doesn't it?

skutatoi would be more like the (armoured) "Byzantine Infantry" of the game, although with the addition of a spear, rather than just a sword.
the more common, lower-level, unarmoured byzantine infantry would be more like the "Round-shield Spearmen" of the game (for spear soldiers) and like the "Trebizond Archers" (for archers). they also had some light infantry with javelins and small axes.

however, as rosacrux pointed out, the names of the units described different kinds of soldiers from time to time.


Quote[/b] ]Good to know. I'm going to treat Kataphractoi as Klivanophoroi and Byzantine Cavalry as Kataphractoi.

not a bad idea you can make the "Byzantine Cavalry" a little heavier though (e.g.:give them a spear instead of a sword for close-quarter combat and increase their charge bonus) in order to match the real kataphraktoi.
the thing is, however, that kataphraktoi, practicaly ceased to exist after the battle of manzikert...

you can also use the "Byzantine Lancers" of the game as the more common, lighter armoured cavalry of the themata.
i think that these cavalrymen were often just called "kavalarioi" but i might be wrong. you might want to give them a shield too, as they usually carried one in battle.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]skutatoi would be more like the (armoured) "Byzantine Infantry" of the game, although with the addition of a spear, rather than just a sword.
the more common, lower-level, unarmoured byzantine infantry would be more like the "Round-shield Spearmen" of the game (for spear soldiers) and like the "Trebizond Archers" (for archers). they also had some light infantry with javelins and small axes.
So, I'll designate Byzantine Infantry as Skutatoi and create an armoured spear unit with the name of Kontaratoi, since we can't have multiple weapons in a single unit. And maybe a pike unit - Menavlatoi.




Quote[/b] ]not a bad idea you can make the "Byzantine Cavalry" a little heavier though (e.g.:give them a spear instead of a sword for close-quarter combat and increase their charge bonus) in order to match the real kataphraktoi.
the thing is, however, that kataphraktoi, practicaly ceased to exist after the battle of manzikert...
I'll make them a little bit heavier, but in the game Klivanophoroi and Byzantine Lancers already use lance (not spear - lance=cavalry ; spear=infantry).

Besides, a spear isn't better for close quarter combat, only for the initial charge. I'll leave them with sword but increase their melee capability.




Quote[/b] ]you might want to give them a shield too, as they usually carried one in battle.
They don't have one? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif I never noticed it.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The Byzantine Army unit description in my MOD will be like this:

-Klivanophoroi (former Kataphraktoi).

-Kataphraktoi (former Byzantine Cavalry).

-Skutatoi (former Byzantine Infantry).

-Kontaratoi (new unit based on Saracen Infantry or Italian Infantry).

-Menavlatoi (new unit based on Swiss Armoured Pikeman).

-Pronoiai Allagion unmodified.

-Psiloi (former Trebizond Archers).

-Varangian Guard based on EarlyVarangianGuard.

What about Byzantine Lancers?
What is the most aproximative Historical name?

And the former Varangian Guard?
What unit and designation should I use?

Tell me what do you think... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] ]Quote
you might want to give them a shield too, as they usually carried one in battle.

They don't have one? I never noticed it.

you're right. they do have one. i don't know why i got the idea that they didn't... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif


Quote[/b] ]What about Byzantine Lancers?
What is the most aporoximative Historical name?

i suppose you can call them "byzantine cavalry" or better "kavalarioi"


Quote[/b] ]And the former Varangian Guard?
What unit and designation should I use?

since you used the "Early Varangian Guard" as the varangian guard, i really don't know what you can do with them. perhaps you can allow them to be produced only in constantinople, something like an elite, but i don't think that will be very historical.

anyway, good luck with your mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[The Wizard]

You should give the Varangian Guard a valor bonus in either Constantinople or Kyiw... after all, Varangian Guard were Rus Vikings from the Grand Principality of Kyiw. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

In MedMOD, WesW made the Varangian Guard from EarlyVarangianGuard, renaming and modifying the normal Varangian Guard. He called them Paramonai.

About Byzantine Lancers, he called them Stratiotai.

Does anybody know the historical accuracy of it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Rosacrux]

Paramonai is a term for a sort-of Royal Bodyguard, so yes them as succesors of the Varangian guard (another Royal Bodyguard) can be viewed as accurate.

Stratiotes (see also the later Italian Stradioti) were multi-purpose cavalry of the late Byzantine era (especially after the restoration of the empire) and I don't think depicting them as light lancers is accurate.

Maybe, a decent term for a light, fast Byzantine cav unit can be Hosarii (from the Greek hosia - ambush) but those were also multi-purpose and are seldomly depicted as field cavalry (scouting, recon and ambushing were their main missions).

But at the time frame we are talking about, they must've already become obsolete.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Stratiotes (see also the later Italian Stradioti) were multi-purpose cavalry of the late Byzantine era (especially after the restoration of the empire) and I don't think depicting them as light lancers is accurate.

Maybe, a decent term for a light, fast Byzantine cav unit can be Hosarii (from the Greek hosia - ambush) but those were also multi-purpose and are seldomly depicted as field cavalry (scouting, recon and ambushing were their main missions).

But at the time frame we are talking about, they must've already become obsolete.
So, Byzantine Lancers were never a specific unit and there isn't an acceptable aproximation for them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

OK. Byzantine Lancers aren't Stratiotai or Hosarii.

For all Hellenes out there: What is the designation, in Greek, of Cavalry Lancers? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Rosacrux]

The answer is Loghoforoi but AFAIK the Byzantines never used that term in conjunction with some cavalry unit. But someone else might know better so you might want to wait for a better answer.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The answer is Loghoforoi but AFAIK the Byzantines never used that term in conjunction with some cavalry unit. But someone else might know better so you might want to wait for a better answer.
If noboby can get me a better designation, then I will use it. Thanks.



BTW, what are the correct form of writing:

-Klibanophoroi or Klivanophoroi?

-Kataphraktoi or Kataphractoi?

-Menaulatoi or Menavlatoi?

-Skutatoi or Scutatoi?

-Kontaratoi or Contaratoi?



And was there any unit designated Kavalarioi?

[cutepuppy]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Feb. 11 2004,15:01)]BTW, what are the correct form of writing:

-Klibanophoroi or Klivanophoroi?

-Kataphraktoi or Kataphractoi?

-Menaulatoi or Menavlatoi?

-Skutatoi or Scutatoi?

-Kontaratoi or Contaratoi?
The letter "c" was typical Roman, while "k" is rather greek (comes from the latter "kappa", which looks very similar to our "k"). The difference between "u", "v" and "w" was made in the european middle ages (after 1000 AD, maybe even after 1200, I think).
So I would prefere Klibanophoroi, Kataphraktoi, Skutatoi, Kontaratoi.
Don't know about mena(u/v)latoi. Reason says u, heart says v. ("u" from Greek letter "upsilon", written similar to our u. Romans rather used "v")

Choosing between "b" and "v" seems more something for Spanish language. Don't they pronounce a "v" like a "b"?
It's gotta be a b.

the above is only correct if I remember my latin and greek lessons (which I finished more than 8 years ago) well.

[Rosacrux]

cutepuppy (err... cute nick http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif ) is right on all points, save one: Menavlatoi in Greek uses the diphthong a+ypsilon which sounds like a+v. So, despite the fact that a+y would be the Greek orthography, to have the correct pronounciation, you have to use "v".

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The letter "c" was typical Roman, while "k" is rather greek (comes from the latter "kappa", which looks very similar to our "k"). The difference between "u", "v" and "w" was made in the european middle ages (after 1000 AD, maybe even after 1200, I think).
So I would prefere Klibanophoroi, Kataphraktoi, Skutatoi, Kontaratoi.
Don't know about mena(u/v)latoi. Reason says u, heart says v. ("u" from Greek letter "upsilon", written similar to our u. Romans rather used "v")
Thanks, cutepuppy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif




Quote[/b] ]Choosing between "b" and "v" seems more something for Spanish language.
You mean in Castellano (Castillian)?

There are several languages in Spain: Castillian, Galician, Catalan, Basque.




Quote[/b] ]Don't they pronounce a "v" like a "b"?
The sound is somewhat similar but still different. But, I'm not Castillian to say how right I am.

In Portuguese, "v" and "b" sound very different.




Quote[/b] ]cutepuppy (err... cute nick ) is right on all points, save one: Menavlatoi in Greek uses the diphthong a+ypsilon which sounds like a+v. So, despite the fact that a+y would be the Greek orthography, to have the correct pronounciation, you have to use "v".
Thanks for the correction, Rosacrux http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[meravelha]

When in doubt you surely can't go wrong to employ a poetic/archaic usage...
So perhaps hoplitai for spearmen and toxotai for archers.

Nor would it be wrong to apply 'characteristic' ethnic designations even to 'native' troops, so perhaps skythoi for horse-archers (who are probably Cuman or Patzinak anyway and part of the skythikon).

More tentatively, could the term akritai be resurected to apply to Armenian Border Nobles?

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Any news of your mod, Dom Aymar, or has it been sacrificed to your MedMod dedication? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
_

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (meravelha @ April 26 2004,22:32)]When in doubt you surely can't go wrong to employ a poetic/archaic usage...
So perhaps hoplitai for spearmen and toxotai for archers.

Nor would it be wrong to apply 'characteristic' ethnic designations even to 'native' troops, so perhaps skythoi for horse-archers (who are probably Cuman or Patzinak anyway and part of the skythikon).

More tentatively, could the term akritai be resurected to apply to Armenian Border Nobles?
Thanks for the info, meravelha http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ April 27 2004,00:36)]-
Any news of your mod, Dom Aymar, or has it been sacrificed to your MedMod dedication? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
_
Thank you very much for asking, Count Mouzafphaerre

I have to say that I bitt more than I could chew. I'll explain. As I was making my MOD, I started by only wanting to alter ProjectileStats and Byz names. Then BKB's SuperMOD and WesW's MedMOD made me more ambitious. I wanted to add several concepts from both. Also:

-I proposed to rework MTW's Historical Battles and create all new ones out of suggestions from everyone here at the ORG (currently stopped project).
-I started gathering info for Europa Barbarorum (finished project).
-I started helping BKB to make flags for his MOD (stopped without helping him much, I hope to help him in the future).
-I started to help WesW in his MedMOD 4.0 (currently working on it).

All of this, together with busy professional and personal life, has made it impossible to continue with my MOD. For the time being, that is... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Actually, you're not alone biting bigger than you would chew. I've been undergoing the same process, ie being err...heavily inspired by WesW/BKB/Viking Horde/Kekvit. If you made/modified any units for ready, maybe you would be interested in merging our projects. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've so far tackled with names. Will edit the map texture to reflect my modifications as well. Next step will probably be editing the real map to repartition provinces and finally getting into unit graphics.

No plans on historical battles ---yet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
_

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ April 28 2004,14:11)]-
Actually, you're not alone biting bigger than you would chew. I've been undergoing the same process, ie being err...heavily inspired by WesW/BKB/Viking Horde/Kekvit. If you made/modified any units for ready, maybe you would be interested in merging our projects. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well, since mine is stoped, I'm afraid I can't be of any assistance. And since, I don't know when I'll restart it...



Quote[/b] ]I've so far tackled with names. Will edit the map texture to reflect my modifications as well. Next step will probably be editing the real map to repartition provinces and finally getting into unit graphics.
Big project in hands, hey?

Why don't you use WesW's map?


Quote[/b] ]No plans on historical battles ---yet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'll drag you to help me and TheSilverKnight, when that project restarts again... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif



Quote[/b] ]http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif m8

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Yes, using WesW's map is an option indeed. But I'm not decided on the partitioning part. Still researching. May end up minimizing the sea regions to give the land provinces more diversity/accuracy.

And then, there's always the unbearable charm of discovering how to do it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
_

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ April 29 2004,00:53)]-
Yes, using WesW's map is an option indeed. But I'm not decided on the partitioning part. Still researching. May end up minimizing the sea regions to give the land provinces more diversity/accuracy.

And then, there's always the unbearable charm of discovering how to do it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
_
And/or the unbearable frustration... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Both. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif The frustration of modding is much more fun than that of the vanilla game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"I have an idea Let me mod it" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
"Hey, it's workable Let me script it in." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
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"Oh $ht, the game won't load." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
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"But...waitaminit" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
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"Just a stupid typo. It's working" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
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[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ April 29 2004,16:52)]-
Both. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif The frustration of modding is much more fun than that of the vanilla game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"I have an idea Let me mod it" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
"Hey, it's workable Let me script it in." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
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"Oh $ht, the game won't load." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
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"But...waitaminit" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
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"Just a stupid typo. It's working" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
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When it's working... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Certainly Otherwise, go back to the "oh $ht" section. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
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[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ April 30 2004,18:05)]-
Certainly Otherwise, go back to the "oh $ht" section. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
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And start an infinite loop... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

[meravelha]

another one...

tzangra is 11th century Greek for arbalest, so arbalesters are tzangrai

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (meravelha @ May 05 2004,16:05)]another one...

tzangra is 11th century Greek for arbalest, so arbalesters are tzangrai
Thanks, meravelha http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif