Wedge Formation

[Servius]

Historically, I'm used to thinking of Alexander the Great using his cav in Wedge formation, and when they hit linear lines of infantry, the wedge pierced the line and split the units in two, destroying morale and the like. I also remember Rommel and Guderian using this formation for their Panzer assaults, with the Mech. Inf. following up through the breaches and circling around the back side. Those crafty Germans

But in MTW, when cav in wedge charge into flat infantry lines, only the first few cav attack and the rest retain formation and don't do anything. Instead of charging through, the cav slams into and stops.

So, what's the use of the wedge formation? What units use it best and what are the best ways to use it?

[Kongamato]

With cavalry, it isnt very good unless you are using it to get through a gap in the enemy lines. Wedge can help you fit through the gap and come out on the other end.

Wedge has some good success when you apply it in certain sword vs. spear battles. It will help the swords win faster.

[Brutal DLX]

Best used in game for sword infantry against spears and pikes. Spears then get penalties.
Other than that, wedge is good for moving cavalry around in tight spots, to move troops into gaps of the enemy line and to concentrate archer fire.

[kawligia]

Yeah with swords vs. spear, wedge formation will kill the spears much faster than stretching the swords into two lines and having them wrap around.

[Voigtkampf]

A wedge formation, which I don't get to use all too often, can be devastating when you perform it on certain units; especially the charges from high valor cavalry can be very effective in that approach.

[RZST]

well i have personally given up on this formation, to me theres no use for this.

best use? try attacking from the back, hell do anything from the back of the enemy and they will die faster. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (kawligia @ Feb. 06 2004,16:24)]Yeah with swords vs. spear, wedge formation will kill the spears much faster than stretching the swords into two lines and having them wrap around.
Very quick question - what do you do to get this result? Even when I charge with wedge into the enemies rear I get worse results than on close line/2 ranks.

[makkyo]

Wedges are useful to break an enemy formation but a horrible against spears (as calvery). well..... anything with spears vs calvary the spears are bound to win. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Oishi]

the thing which I would like to know is how quickly does the benefit or penalty of a certain formation take to kick in?

In other words, suppose you're charging some guy, and right as you make contact with the opposing troops, you switch to "close" formation.

do your defensive stats go up instantly since that is the "mode" they are now in, or do you actually have to wait until your guys physically re-shape?

[kawligia]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Feb. 06 2004,14:50)]Very quick question - what do you do to get this result? Even when I charge with wedge into the enemies rear I get worse results than on close line/2 ranks.
I put them on wedge formation and charge them at spear units. It breaks them in half down the middle and then my soldiers dissolve into the enemy formation and keep fighting.

I honestly don't see how you DON'T get those results. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[frogbeastegg]

And I honestly don't see how you do Whenever I use wedge I always get more losses and do less damage regardless of what unit I use, what unit I attack and what angle I attack from. I always kill twice as many as lose half as many in line and that's just attacking from the front. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Always been the case for me in MTW, in STW the wedge is more useful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_shrug.gif

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]Historically, I'm used to thinking of Alexander the Great using his cav in Wedge formation,

could have sworn that he used a diamond formation (not that MTW has that formation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif ).

i find it makes units easier to manouvre when they are in a wedge

attacking enemy units from the rear and flank usually guarrentees me their quick destruction.

using wedge on a frontal attack is something i try to avoid, unless i have a reasonable height advantage.

i say.. why attack the front of the enemy when you can have an easier time at the side and rear. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Psyco]

I'm pretty sure the Macedonians used the diamond shape.
About the wedge, I find it most useful for archers.
Their fire is more concentrated (It seems to be more accurate than 2 lines) and if they have to charge, you don't have to change formation. Also, they take up very little room (small frontage) so are easier to maneuver.

[spmetla]

I use the wedge primarily for trying to attack a unit behind another unit because then they try to keep going. Although you don't get the charge bonus you break their formation up more. I've seen a few wedges rip through light infantry like nothing and then continue toward the intended target.

[Beirut]

John Keegan's book "The Face of Battle" shows Henry V using his longbowmen in wedges at Agincourt. Imagine.

Now I do it too. I find it very easy to control them, seems good for defence, and for placement and movement. Don't notice much of a loss in accuracy, but I tend to go LB heavy in my formations, so most volleys see 500 to 1000 arrows in flight at a time and accuray almost becomes a moot point.

And I used to put my flanking cavalry in wedges, but found if they are strung out ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif ?) in a long line, when they hit their target, the outside edges of the line flank and envelope the enemy unit. Very nice indeed.

[ichi]

I usually have my pavs streched out into long lines 2 ranks deep, which maximizes rate of fire but is cumbersome if they need to move in tight quarters or under fire.

Whenever I need to move pavs I quickly put them in wedge, move, then easily return to long thin formation with a single click.

ichi

[Norseman]

A long time ago I did several tests in custom battles; two units head on, one in normal and a viking unit in wedge.

The result was basically that against medium to good troops, even those with rank bonus, the wedge was no good.

However one thing I did notice was; against lesser troops(spearmen, peasants, U.Militia etc.), that the viking unit would kill off anyway, the casualties were fewer.

Their increased kill to loss ratio made them defeat the weak opponent in a shorter time with fewer losses.

So IMO the best way to use it, aside from maneuvering,
is against armies made up of many weak units. Your victory may be certain almost no matter how you fight it, but using the wedge can in addition ensure a minimum of losses.

[Kampfen]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Feb. 06 2004,18:58)]I usually have my pavs streched out into long lines 2 ranks deep, which maximizes rate of fire but is cumbersome if they need to move in tight quarters or under fire.

Whenever I need to move pavs I quickly put them in wedge, move, then easily return to long thin formation with a single click.

ichi
Nice tip.

[The Wizard]

Wasn't the wedge handy dandy for charging exposed flanks?



~Wiz

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Feb. 06 2004,15:52)]And I honestly don't see how you do Whenever I use wedge I always get more losses and do less damage regardless of what unit I use, what unit I attack and what angle I attack from. I always kill twice as many as lose half as many in line and that's just attacking from the front. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Always been the case for me in MTW, in STW the wedge is more useful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_shrug.gif
I think part of the trick is you dont actually attack the unit, but clik the cursor behind the target unit so that the cav doesnt stop when just the tip of the unit has come into contact with hte enemy unit.

[frogbeastegg]

That might explain it - I only use the 'attack-move' thing when chasing routers or sweeping along the enemies back line from one side to another. In my experience wedge does as much damage on impact with an enemy formation as a car does when hitting a 6 foot deep wall - the car gets smashed up and the wall barely blinks In shogun the wedge kept moving for longer and actually penetrated the enemy formation, especially if you charged from the rear. In MTW all I ever get is the car into wall effect no matter which way I charge from.

I shall try using the 'attack-move' thing with a wedge and see what happens.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Likely that the 'click behind the unit to get full wedge benefit' may not work in 2.01.

Got to test it to see...

Louis,

[*Ringo*]

I just tested this....

1 Unit of 50 Gothic Foot Knights (modded but no stat change) vs. 1 Unit of 100 Byzantine Infantry

Results:

GFK in line formation 2 men deep WON (lost 5 men killed 57 v. quickly)

GFK in wedge formation WON (lost 15 men Killed 52)

GFK in wedge formation using 'attack-move' tactics LOST (lost 32 men killed 70 v. drawn out melee)

*one thing to note was that using the 'attack-move' tactics the battle was fought slightly uphill Also the attack had to be adjusted to ensure the correction direction in relation the the other unit was maintained. (Not like the fire and forget of the previous tests) This could have affected the result http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I'm sure everyone is capable of drawning their own conclusions about the 'wedge' formation. If not.... run some tests http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

*Ringo*

[Rowan11088]

Well, from my limited knowledge wedge decreases defense and increases attack (by 3 each I believe, not sure), so it would make sense not to charge infantry frontally with cav in this formation, because their defense is so much lower. Even though they should absolutely plow through the infantry with that added attack combined with charge value, a few cav are guaranteed to get killed, and once the charge ends they're done for. It would make sense that wedge would cause less casualties against weaker opponents because then your "charge" would never end; your attack would be so high that you units would just keep killing and the enemy would never even get a chance to break your charged (charges are stopped when each charging member of a unit encounters an opponent that it does not kill in one hit). Thus wedges are useful for charges against weak infantry, and I think useful when you already have a very high attack rating, because then you can plow through stuff. It is definitely useful against very tired units, because their attack rating is much lower than normal, so they won't be able to take advantage of your lower defense.

[Doug-Thompson]

A unit in wedge formation covers its own flanks.

Attack either side, and you run into a wall of cavalry. The only way to flank it, really, is to go to the rear.

[Demequis]

Quote[/b] (Psyco @ Feb. 06 2004,15:08)]I'm pretty sure the Macedonians used the diamond shape.
About the wedge, I find it most useful for archers.
Their fire is more concentrated (It seems to be more accurate than 2 lines) and if they have to charge, you don't have to change formation. Also, they take up very little room (small frontage) so are easier to maneuver.
I've never even thought of the wedge for archers That's ingenious You don't have to draw them into two lines to set up for defense. Excellent thanks much
Learn something new every day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Rowan11088]

Wow...no flanks in wedge...that's genius :) I'll have to remember that next time I have...any fight...because it's applicable to practically everything. Lol. Thanks for that tip. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[kawligia]

Ringo I don't think Byzantine Infantry get a rank bonus and therefore the wedge has no purpose in that situation.

Try it again with FMAA and Feudal Sergeants.

[Brutal DLX]

If you click behind the enemy unit, you forfeit the charge bonus. At least since v2.01. In earlier versions this will work.
Cav in wedge shouldn't be used to attack, unless it is melee cav that doesn't need to rely on a good charge.

[*Ringo*]

Quote[/b] (kawligia @ Feb. 09 2004,00:35)]Ringo I don't think Byzantine Infantry get a rank bonus and therefore the wedge has no purpose in that situation.

Try it again with FMAA and Feudal Sergeants.
Doh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif Trust me to randomly pick the only faction without spears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Oh well, without the rank bonus, the test is still useful for the distribution of the men in the attacking force on the defending unit. The purpose of the wedge formation is surely to disrupt enemy units? Also proves that 'swiping' is no longer any advantage. I still don't rate wedge tho. I only use it to plough into the back of enemy units already in melee with my main force. This can often be the 'straw that breaks the camel's back' & send even the most hardened troops whimpering from the field http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif


Regards,

*Ringo*

[CeeBod]

I've never used wedges much before, but I'm starting to notice that Ghazi Infantry in wedges really become a truly devastating fire-and-forget missile http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Their Defence drops so low, that they're in danger of suffering casualties to attacks on blades of grass, but they end up with a huge armour-piercing attack, combined with a high charge - from flanks/rear it's awesome, but I've even used it face-on to good effect - destroyed a unit of High Royal Cav, when that unit was in danger of breaking through my lines, by charging the Ghazis, in wedge, through a gap in my lines towards the on-rushing cav - sure my Ghazis were knocked down to 11 men, before the Royal Knights routed, but I'd consider that a pretty ueful swap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Servius]

Funny how I could have sworn the wedge was intended for use by cav to break nme lines, but it seems much more useful for sword and missile units than for cav.

It's also a shame there is not a fourth option for engagement attitude: Trample. The idea would be mostly for cav units on attack, especially if hitting a routing unit from behind. Instead of balling up, hitting the line in the middle, but slowing down to melee, the cav would just charge straight through, ignoring nme soldiers it didn't kill on the first hit rather than stopping to engage them.

I guess this is the idea behind ordering them to run to a point beyond the target unit, but I wish there was a formal, rather than backdoor way to get this effect.

Also, after reading the posts about using swords in Wedge I had my Militia Sergeants and FAA do it vs spears. They tore right through them, way faster than when they were in Line, three ranks deep.

The only reason I'm hesitant to try this with missiles is that I mostly defend with archers and my defensive formation is a turtle shell with my back to a zone wall or corner of the map. Thus, the thinner the ranks, the less frontage my spear/halberd units have to cover.

[Chaffers]

How long are you allowing these units to charge before engaging the enemy on these tests? I'm sure I've seen serious disruption to enemy lines (most importantly spears) when charging cavalry in wedge or column, and also when charging Clansmen into anything (with a defence of -3 its charge or nothing, just the way I like it :) ).

Waiting for the enemy to step on your toes before charging dosn't seem to do much, need a good long runup to build momentum. All you'll see with wedge and a 10 metre charge is the front dude fighting on his own, which can in itself be a very useful outcome in certain situations.

[kawligia]

I'm all for the "Trample" option because it will moake the game not only more fun, but more realistic.

I think it'll be around in RTW...at least I hope

[KyodaiSteeleye]

The time i've used wedge very effectively is cav against poor infantry, or more usefully against missile lines - your cav should plow straight through a double line of archers, break the formation and a rout should ensue very quickly.

Also as a last ditch desperate measure, stick your crap missile units in wedge to charge into melee - so ensuring max. damage you can hope for from the charge. Once in, click them back to close formation.

Actually, that's a point - if your charge doesn't break a unit, i usually click back into close formation - otherwise you'll lose your troops very fast.

[kawligia]

In real life, archers would rout at the mere sight of cavalry closing in on their defenseless selves.

[RisingSun]

So would most infantry. A huge point of cavalry was to actually parade around in front of the enemy, threatening a charge, and hopefully they will run without even having to engage. It was known to work quite effectively on infantry without spears. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Chaffers]

Done a few tests and I'm seeing plenty of pushback / disruption with Royal Knights against FS, head on. Even to the extent that a few Knights have gone straight through the spears unit on occasion....

One of my favourite tricks is to charge any old rubbish into a high value unit in column formation, they tend to get hacked down, but slowly as the oppo can only hit two of your peasants at a time.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Meanwhile yer Royal Kiniguts are prancing around the back of the now pinned opp high value unit, sharpening their lances and discussing the perfect place between the shoulder-blades to insert them...

Once said Kiniguts are engaged (nice charge bonus, from behind, downhill works for me) the oppo turns to face, at which point you spread your feeble peasants across his back and watch their valour go through the roof.... Gives you plenty of time to arrange your Knights for the perfect charge, as in hitting perpendicular with a longer formation than the oppos and a good long runup first....

[Ironside]

I have atleast one constant use for the wedge and that is in bridge battles and defending castles. Place one unit in front and two on the flanks, all in wedge formation. When the first unit crosses over, charge and watch the enemy drop like flies until they rout (witch usually take 1-2 seconds. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WorkNeglecter]

I'm still looking for an answer to a question about wedge formation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif
I know that wedge gives +3 attack and -3 defense (no?)
And that a charge bonus is applied when the formation has at least 3 seconds to build up speed.
If I have a sword unit in wedge and I charge it through my own defending spear unit to attack another sword unit, do I:
1) lose the charge bonus because my troops can't build up speed charging through a tight formation spear unit?
2) lose the wedge bonus for the same reason?

Everyone will ask me, "why don't you charge from behind?"
The answer is that I am an all-infantry unit and the enemy has swarms of cav waiting to take out any swords that venture out from behind the spear wall. So I have to get my swords into battle while they're still "covered" by spears.

should I forget about the wedge and just wait 'til my spears are wavering before sending in lines of swords?

any assistance is appreciated

[KyodaiSteeleye]

I don't know the game rules, but my experience tells me that charging through another unit isn't a good idea - i think you do lose your charge bonus, you also disrupt both unit's formations - which is especially bad for your spears who will start to lose their rank bonus. I seem to remember that both units also get a morale penalty for formation disruption too.

[katank]

crowding effect with overlapping units reduce combat efficiency for both.

the charging through friendly units don't work at all.

you have to go around them just like trees hence very slow speed no charge bonus.

just flank with your swords or charge through small gaps in spear wall.

easier if you use staggered spear wall like I do

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]easier if you use staggered spear wall like I do

you attack "en echelon"?

that`s what i do sometimes as well;

this formationcan be easily reversed to make the leading unit on the left OR right side as the terrain and enemy dictates.


Sp
Sp
Sp
Sw Sw Sp
Ar Ar Ar Sp
Gen Sw Sp
Cav Cav
Cav


when i do it this way the enemy usually goes for the Sp on the far left first, this can give me a chance for the second Sp unit to take the attacking unit in the flank, the third unit can rush forward to protect the second units flank or go straight ahead to tackle another unit.

whilw the spears tie up or run through the enemy line the cav swings out in a wide arc to envelop the enemy from both sides or attack its rear (i don`t use them to attack the centre as they can get tangled up too easily.

the swordmen can also be used to flank or punch through and give support to any Sp units in trouble.

the archers deal specifically with any heavy cavalry, swordmen, halberg units etc.

i rarely let my general do any fighting, he`s mainly there for morale, to pursue them when they rout or to plug up any gap that could break my force in half.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katar @ April 28 2004,14:08)]you attack "en echelon"?

that`s what i do sometimes as well;
This is one of my favorites. I don't think the AI knows how to handle it.

The AI will often go for one end of your line or the other if you're defending. Select all and change facing and boom -- instant echelon, although you will have to move the units up.

[Oaty]

Something I thought about that helps the wedge is the unit leader. The unit leader is always in the front of a wedge. Now if he is a 1 star general this gives him 5 hp's just for being a general and 1 more for having 1 star for a total of 6 hp's. This means he has to have a killing blow dealt to him 6 times before he goes down. In my campaigns I always merge to make full units but in the process the unit leader stays and maintains his personal valour so towards the end of the campaign you have quite a few unit leaders that on average have up 7 valour on the average. Well when I get quite a few of these 1 and 2 stars all by themselves with no new replacements I send them back for retraining to get a full unit back out of them again. Well it is my conlusion that a lot of these wedge formations used in single player games has a jedi warrior with 7 valour leading the attack. But then again in these attacks historically I believe they always did have the best men in the front that were the equivalient to a kensai warrior

[son of spam]

oh yeah, that reminds me of the best use for wedge formation, namely charging your general straight into the center of the enemy line.