Spear men uselsss?

[LegionOfSteel]

everytime i try and set up my defensive formation, the enemy cavalry never charges my spears, they just keep trying to get round the flanks, in the end i just run another tough unit into them, as a matter of fact, i am never able to expolit any of their weaknesses, and they can never exploit mine, it just turns into a huge brawl.. i guess that happens in a game which is less reliant on speed and skill with the mouse, high APM like starcraft or warcraft...both players have time to think without having to worry about other factors and huge multitasking..

i actually find the most useful strategy is not worrying about unit weakness/ strengths, but making sure your unit with the highest moral is the one taking the brunt of the beating, with all your scared guys jabbing at the enemy from back the back of the melee so they dont run, also making sure the enemy general gets hammered.. with your best shock troops.. but obviously i still dont throw ranged troops into melee, or charge gothic knights with my peasants... if you know what im trying to get at

i guess when it comes down to it, i am still a newbie, and perhaps this is the reason i experience my battles to be like this.. or is this the same for everyone?

if anyone has any good replays of well fought battles could you please let me know because i am interested to see how good players command their forces..

[Aelwyn]

Charge the cavs with spears, and when they start attacking you, stop. Make sure you're on hold formation and position, and you don't open up your units' flank by charging. They'll probably back off, but you can keep doing it and they will keep attacking back.

[Ragss]

Well of course they arent going to pull a kamakaze rush and throw themselves on your spears. What i do is put ~2 spears in front, then the others (at least 2 more) are angled off of the end of the orignal 2, so it creates a deeper wall of spears. And in my experiance the AI doesnt run ALL the way around them and usually ends up charging the side of one of these groups, but thats better than a full flank to my archers.

[gaijinalways]

I agree with these comments that you need more thn one unit to take on a cav unit. If you can get a spear unit locked on the front, then a unit hitting from behind (even peasants sometimes works) tends to take the cav out or weaken it effectively. In general, the number of spearman helps unless their morale and valor are really low and they rout upon contact before you can hit the cav's backside.

[Chaffers]

Yeah spears are useless, but they are very cheap and plentiful.

Most peeps seem to put a continuous line of spears at the front of their armies, I never do this. Always tightly bunched groups with gaps between them, the gap should be just big enough to tempt a cavalry charge through it. Naturally you have your own general behind one of the gaps in case it gets out of control though it makes arbs far more effective as they target the soldiers they can see with direct fire, rather than firing through your useless spearmen. Also a cav unit that charges through can then be pounced upon by reserve units and even the spear units themselves if the target is worthwhile. I find feudal seargents to be the best suited for this role. Cheap, expendable, easy build requirements so they can be replaced in captured cities and good morale.

Its difficult to use gunpowder troops effectively without using a formation like this, though they come into their own when used properly. Also archer units can fire over the top at important locations and phases of the battle. The troops they kill are less important than the morale switch they produce. I tend to prefer mounted archers due to their flexibility, its easy to station them far away from enemy archers to protect them, though once the main melee is joined they tend to go round the back to take out foot archers, soak up routers and hit those vital units on the waver with a volley or two. Due to using deep spear formations I've never found a use for naptha.

Pikes are wonderful though, not really a replacement for spears as most people seem to use them, just complimentary. Use them on the flanks to dissuade the enemy cav and then smash two units of them into the melee from the side.. Of course you can be really evil and use disciplined / Elite troops behind your spears, let them rout in their own time and the entire horde chases them. Step in with pikes from the flanks to complete the collapsing centre trap.

[PseRamesses]

Personally I seldom use spears and when I do I actually use them on the flanks to push the cavs to the middle of the battlefield where my archers will obliviate them. I usually have 2 spear, 2 cav, 6 sword and 6 archers. Ofcourse I play the BYZ and ENG a lot so thoose sword-units are made up with the 100-unit byz.inf and fyrdmen.

[Duke of RumpyPumpy]

Saracen Infantry, Chivalric Sergeants, Italian light infantry useless????

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-freak.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-mad.gif

I think not.

Spears are an ideal unit for holding a defensive formation.

For example, for holding the line against the Golden Horde. I won a large battle with them easily with Saracen Infantry holding the line after many charges from their heavy cav, allowing the arbs to litter the field with bodies.

The key with spears is NOT to attack with them. They are a defensive unit.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-Mr-T.gif says: I pity the fool who doesn't use spears.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[lancer63]

Lately I've been using a checker like formation of spears and ranged units, something like this:

spear archer spear archer spear
jav/bow spear jav/bow spear jav/bow

cav. melee general melee cav cav/melee

The basic trick is to guard the flanks of ranged units, thus avoiding the AI's nasty habit of sweeping my bows from the flanks. Of course this formation has a lot of flaws, like presenting a smaller front and concentrating too many troops in such a thight space, making them ideal targets for cats and cannon. But it has its uses and I like how it looks before battle begins. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif

Spears are basic to my armies. Like bows, cav., militia and swordsmen. I always try and have balanced armies.

[Sociopsychoactive]

Yes, cavalry will very rarely charge into spears, even on easies difficulties, but they still have great use. They are a cheap, very easily replaced unit, so you use them to pin, rater than to kill. Run them into the enemy first, with flanks guarded, often by more spears, while your faster sword and your cav runs round the back and traps the enemy in a ring of point death. Of course, this assumes you outnumber the enemy.

They pin brilliantly, and I really don't mind sacrificing them, so for example they bring naptha back into play. Pin the enemy with spears and have your naptha either directly behind the spears, or on lsightly hgher ground, meaning they throw about holf their bmbs into the spears, and half into the enemy, as spears are so cheap you don't mind the 20~ casualties, and the 20~ casualties to the enemy are usualy worth it.

Fuedal seargent pack enough punch not only to pin, but to kill most none-sword, but I must express my severe dislike of civ MAA. THe low moral makes htem useless, you can't pin with them, they rout before you've circled around, you can't use javlin or naptha with them as they run at the sight of their own dead, and you can't effectively charge with them AND keep formation. THeir only use is against inferior spear units, and even then you really have to watch for them wavering, they are just a load of expensive spineless cowards
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

Oh, and fyrdmen are actually spear type. They are exactly the same as fuedal sergents (despite the desciption saying they are like inferior spearmen) and I think they cost less. They are a very good spear unit themselves, as fuedal sergents are, they just look better though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

[Mysterium]

Actually, spear units can have some use on offense as well. Since they usually come in packs of 100, they can be stretched pretty thin and cover a whole lot of line. Make them just two rows deep, and one of your units can cover three of his defensive line. Of course, your spearmen are going to get chewed up pretty quickly, even fighting against slightly weaker units. But what that does is pin his whole front line in place. You're sacrificing a unit to keep a good majority of his screening units in the same place.

The key to this technique is speed. You have to get cavalry and/or offensive heavy infantry (MAA) around his flanks quickly, before those spearmen break and run and start a rout of all of your poor morale troops. But as long as your spearmen are gonna be cannon fodder, might as well make them USEFUL cannon fodder. It's very Napoleonic/Sun Tzu: attack his strength with weakness, and then attack his weakness with strength.

[Sociopsychoactive]

For civ MAA< read Civelric seargents. Whoops. I wish I could edit...

[SmokWawelski]

I assume that you guys are balking the main SP campaign and MP, as in the VI campaign the armored spears are probably the best (most rounded) unit available if you are not playing as the horned riders...

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[Sociopsychoactive]

Actually, armored spear men aren&#39;t that much better than normals. They pin the same adn last longer, and maybe they can be useful killing the enemy king when you box him in, but if you send something like Celtic warriors against them, they are just more meat for the grinder, same for the wonderful berserker&#39;s. Plus, they have a higher Armour rating so things like landsmen and huscarls (both Saxon and viking) get an even bigger bonus against them, and they chew them up at about the same rate as normal spear men or fyrdmen.

For a better unit of spear in viking, especially when facing those hairy marauding Norsemen, then go for Fyrdmen, who are the exact equivalent of fuedalsergents. They have low enough Armour that the anti-armour bonus isn;t huge, and are strong enough to hold the line for as long as armoured spear men would against everything else.

Anyway, for a well rounded unit Celtic warriors are great, if a little limited in as far as factions able to create them. Against spears they kill faster than most sword units in medieval, partly due to the large squad size. They are faster and therefore better able to flank than most. They are extremely versatile and have only one major flaw, missiles. Even horse has trouble cutting through them, but missiles will mow them down like blades of grass before a strimmer. The only unit I or my g/f (who plays viking far more than medieval) have found to match them in their versatility is berserker&#39;s, and they have so few in a squad that they are roughly equal, if a little more insane and impetuous.

Though I have witnessed 2 exhausted berserker&#39;s chase nearly 200 armoured spearmen from the field, and Celtic warriors do seem to be the &#39;younger brother&#39; of berserker&#39;s, what more could you ask for (except maybe a shield, or a hundred berserker&#39;s in a squad, THAT would be fun...)

[Lacker]

I&#39;ve found spears to be usefull against cavalry only if I can bait them in first. I usually will line up a weaker more expendable unit (like peasants) in front and try to pull the horse to charge. One they do I&#39;ll line my spears up behind the peasants and simply march them to the front. This seems to work well. The CPU tends to be eager to charge the pesants with their horse and you can use it to your advantage if you&#39;re quick enough and line your units up properly.

A

[fruitfly]

The main job spearmen have is providing a defensive screen for the archers/arbs behind them.

I normally have a front line of 2-3 with another one on each flank to provide a screen against a flanking move by enemy cavalry (unless I set up with a forest on one side, in which case I won&#39;t put spearmen there and fill it with halbs or something similar instead to butcher any horses the AI sends into the trees). Then I pack rows and rows of archer units in the area the spearmen are protecting.

If the enemy cavalry don&#39;t charge you, they&#39;ll just get shot to pieces by the dense arrow fire (putting archers on hold position and fire at will helps with this).

The spearmen act as a good deterrent against cavalry charges and are good enough to hold most enemy units at bay until you can engage them with a better sword/cavalry unit yourself.

[econ21]

I probably over-use spearmen. Five units of them really bulk out an army and provide its basis. They are cheap, low tech and come in big units of 100 that are great for garrisons that maintain loyalty. I only play SP and usually end up defending. The spears provide a sturdy frontline and protection for the archers, while cav or swords move round the flanks for the kill. AI knights will often charge spears, although they try to angle for your flanks. The AI handles it knights pretty well now (after the patches and the VI) so often I set spear units to attack knight units in order to avoid being outmaneouvred in the heat of battle.

The nastiest times are when the AI screens its knights with melee infantry that can chew up spears and throws knights into the mix at appropriate points.

I am not sure how you would deal with enemy knights apart from with spears - melee infantry would usually do worse and matching knights with your knights may be inefficient.

Often a key problem for spears is morale - with a low command general, a solid spearline can collapse after losing very few casualties. Spears are poor against swords - Celtic warriors, Byz infantry, Vikings, MAA, AUM - etc - and probably less useful on the offensive. You can use them to deal with cavalry charges, but probably would be better using swords for the bulk of your army.

[Seven.the.Hun]

its simple...enemy cavalry will attack something, the trick is adjusting accordingly, spearmen are not often charged by cavalry so...move spearmen around as much as possible, even charge them ahead of army, as long as they are attacking something, they are far from useless...
enemy cavalry will attempt flanking moves, let them...as long as u can charge spearmen to flank their melee with your troops, those 5 fatigue bars must be used quickly, especially in bad weather...
must be said that i use spearmen only as backup troops for such a purpose, and i also align my army with archers(if i am using any) in the very front, eliminating friendly fire, as they fall back when charged, when archers are depleted, i charge them aswell to confuse the enemy with #s, and they can take some down with them... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ...all things said, mobility is best, horseback spearmen are always better, the faster combatant has more options...thus more ways to victory...hope this helps... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[katank]

I use spearmen much like fruitfly does. I usually play in early so most of my armies are spear/archers as they are so low in building reqs. With about 4-5 spears in a half hexagon or square formation makes for great protection for my archers. you will be surprised at how well 9-10 vanilla archers can maul enemies in early even on harder difficulty levels. I have had enemy troops charge up to my lines and rout without even making contact from archer fire.

THe only ones that can survived massed archery is cav and they have to charge your spears if they want the volleys to stop.

As well, spears make for great cannon fodder so feel free to fire into the melee. they can pin so you can manuever naptha or javs into the rear and then maul their units for instant rout.

The spears when deployed in proper ranks can actually beat up swordsman 1 on 1 if they are attacking frontally which is pretty cool.

They are great in early though they are not as good in the later ages since the polearms such as halbs and other AP troops do better at killing the cav which are usually heavily armoured. THey can still be good for pinning tho.

[desdichado]

whenever i&#39;ve gone with few spears or had them on the flanks the AI will always do a mass cavalry charge against my center which would be made of swords. This turns the battle into a very ugly brawl and we both lose lots of good men - not the way I want battle to play out. I use spears in the front line to keep my main line intact and to keep my missile units protected - arbs/xbows can still fire over the spearmens heads.

I use spearmen to control the battle, not too win it. Once enemy cav is out on his flanks my swords can go through the spearmen to take on enemy line or if not can go round the flanks themselves.

I agree with comment about chiv spearmen - just mod them too have good morale as this makes them more useful and fixes what I think CA did by mistake giving them poor morale.