Combining Units [Archive]

ichi

02-08-2004, 21:35

There have been a lot of posts lately about merging or combining depleted units. I put together a couple of visual depictions that helped me to understand how to get the best deal when doing this.

The valor of each soldier is tracked individually. If you add 30 V4 Longbows to 30 V2 LBs then the combined unit will show V3, but is actually made up of 30 V2 and 30 V4. It does not matter which unit you drop on the other for valor, except . . .

Weapons and Armor are tracked by unit, and it does matter which unit get dropped on the other. The combined unit will have the armor and weapons of the receiving unit

The following shots show the before and after I merged units. The white circles shows the units being affected, the blue arrow shows the direction of the drop.

The top row shows the units before merging. I take 33 V2 LBs with weapons and armor and drop them on a unit of 34 V3 LBs with armor but no weapons (there's a typo in the description of the screenie - should read 34 instead of 7). You can see in the second row that this gives me a unit of 60 LBs with armor and 7 V2 with armor and weapons. The 60 unit is made up of 34 V3 and 26 V2 guys - the average of which is V3.

It would have been better to drop the 34 on the 33 - I would have gotten the weapons and armor upgrade on the 60 man unit.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichiunitcomb1.jpg

In the bottom two frames I drop 50 V3 LBs with weapons onto a unit of 7 V2 LBs with weapons and armor. I get 57 LBs with weapons and armor (50 V3 and 7 V2 for an average of V3). If I had dropped the 7 man unit onto the 50 man unit I would have lost the armor. The captions are slightly misleading in that it says 57 V3, when that is just the average.

In the next example I take 28 V4 LBs and drop them on 29 V3 LBs with swords. This is ideal because I get the sword upgrade - had I dropped the 29 on the 28 I would have lost it. The men retain their valor- the average of 28 and 29 is V3 but there are still V4 men in the unit.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichiunitcomb2.jpg

Finally, I drop 31 armored LBs onto 22 LBs without armor but with weapons. I wind up with 53 LBs with weapons, but I lose the armor

So to keep (maybe even increase) men with weapons and armor always drop unarmored/unweaponed onto armored/weaponed (or lower quality onto higher quality).

Don't combine units with armor but no weapons into units with weapons but no armor.

ichi

katar

02-08-2004, 22:25

i always merge units to maximise their overall valour, (ignoring all weapon and armour upgrades), then send them to a province that has the best upgrades and run the full strength unit through the retraining section, which outfits them with the best kit available to me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

kiwitt

02-09-2004, 00:36

Quote[/b] (katar @ Feb. 08 2004,15:25)]i always merge units to maximise their overall valour, (ignoring all weapon and armour upgrades), then send them to a province that has the best upgrades and run the full strength unit through the retraining section, which outfits them with the best kit available to me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Is valor better than armor and weapons ?

+4 Valor > +4 Weapons
+4 Valor > +4 Armor

katar

02-09-2004, 01:20

Quote[/b] ]Is valor better than armor and weapons ?

armour and weapons i can get easily enough from the right buildings, whereas good valour units i have to accumulate over time and battles.

this way i end up with it all. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Beirut

02-09-2004, 02:35

I was one of those who asked.

Excellent post. Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

kiwitt

02-09-2004, 05:29

Good point Katar. I will use valor henceforth in my merging of units. And rebuild in my provinces for the other attributes.

Revenant69

02-09-2004, 11:18

Excellent post ichi. I always thought that there was something fishy going on when combining units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Your picture walkthrough has helped me understand how the merging of armies works (ie dropping low quality onto high quality trick). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Rev

Servius

02-09-2004, 16:39

Yeah, right now I'm England, it's early into the High period, and I hold France, Spain, Scandinavia, and some German provinces.

I make all my Longbowmen in Wales and all my Billmen in Mercia for the valor bonuses (+2 with the Master buildings). Now I'm working on making one of the northern Spanish provinces make each one too, so that I can then retrain these high/valor units there and get them the weapon bonuses.

Here's a question: If I make some Billmen with +3 armor in Mercia and then send them to, say, Castile, which has +3 weapon building but no armor buildings, will the Billmen get the weapon but lose the armor bonus in the retraining, or will they keep their armor and get the weapon bonus to boot?

If not, this will cut down on the construction time I need for this process.

Kristaps

02-09-2004, 17:00

It's been stressed quite a few times that valor is tracked individually by soldier.

I was wondering http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif, if it's true also on the battlefield or the engine assumes that all soldiers in a unit have valor equal to the unit's average (programmatically easier done than tracking the battlefield valor individually).

So, my question is, do we have a confirmation from the programmers that valor is tracked individually on the battlefield? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

and... now, that I come to think of it, i have another question... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif do we know what happens to unit morale obtained from churches, monasteries, cathedrals when we retrain the unit in a province with no such buildings?

would the higher morale of the original unit prevail or (1) the new recruits would have lower morale (2) the whole unit would have a morale drop to correspond to the bonuses of the retraining province? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Doug-Thompson

02-09-2004, 21:40

Excellent, well-documented work, ichi. thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

econ21

02-09-2004, 23:35

Kristaps - yes, the designers have confirmed valour is tracked individually on the battlefield (don't know if you remember the legendary swordsman event in Shogun - that was cool). Following Ichi's post, I'd like them to confirm weapons and armour are not tracked individually - as I'd always assumed they were, but Ichi's evidence is persuasive.

ichi

02-10-2004, 01:22

Quote[/b] (Servius1234 @ Feb. 09 2004,08:39)]Here's a question: If I make some Billmen with +3 armor in Mercia and then send them to, say, Castile, which has +3 weapon building but no armor buildings, will the Billmen get the weapon but lose the armor bonus in the retraining, or will they keep their armor and get the weapon bonus to boot?
Yes, in your example you would come out of the process with Billmen at W3A3.

Quote[/b] ]Is valor better than armor and weapons ?

+4 Valor > +4 Weapons
+4 Valor > +4 Armor

Valor increases morale, attack, and defense

Weapons increase attack

Armor increases defense and armor.

There's a great post by LongJohn in the MTW archives on this subject.

Quote[/b] ]i always merge units to maximise their overall valour, (ignoring all weapon and armour upgrades), then send them to a province that has the best upgrades and run the full strength unit through the retraining section, which outfits them with the best kit available to me.

One of the great things about this game is that everyone can try different styles, and whatever works for you is OK. I do have a couple of questions tho about your post.

When you merge units the valor is tracked individually for each man, so you dont really maximize valor, altho you can make it appear that you are. I assume you are saying that you add high valor depleted troops together to get a single high valor unit?

Doesn't this take a lot of micromanagement, moving units from the front lines back to provinces with high upgrade facilities? It would also seem that this would reduce the effectiveness of those high quality unit-producing provinces - don't you want those great provinces producing additional troops?

I found that relying solely on retraining troops reduced my ability to keep pace, especially early in the game when I have only a few provinces churning out troops. I really don't see the two options (merging depleted units vs retraining) as incompatible, but rather as cumulative.

I just makes sense to me to not throw away upgrades, even tho I have the ability to recreate them.

Thanks for the positive responses to the post. It's fun to try to unravel and the mysteries of this game, and when I get positive feedback from you guys it makes me feel even better

aregato

ichi

dunno

02-10-2004, 02:34

Well, technically there is a slight disadvantage when mixing low and high valor units because morale is not tracked individually. Can't have part of a unit rout afterall.

Brutal DLX

02-10-2004, 10:59

Well, I suppose the morale level of the unit is that of the valour average of its men, thus if you mix your troops such that they maintain their average valour it is actually an advantage because the new guys will also have the veteran's morale.
You have to find a balance between mixing troops to keep unit size reasonable for fighting and maintaining valour level. I start mixing when the veteran unit is about at two thirds of its strength.

Kristaps

02-10-2004, 15:33

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 10 2004,03:59)]Well, I suppose the morale level of the unit is that of the valour average of its men, thus if you mix your troops such that they maintain their average valour it is actually an advantage because the new guys will also have the veteran's morale.
mmm, not exactly, the morale level also depends on the morale boosting buildings of the province the units are trained-retrained in. churches, monasteries, reliquiaries, mosques, cathedrals, ribbats all give + to morale of the troops produced in the province.

katar

02-11-2004, 00:09

ichi wrote

Quote[/b] ]
When you merge units the valor is tracked individually for each man, so you dont really maximize valor, altho you can make it appear that you are. I assume you are saying that you add high valor depleted troops together to get a single high valor unit?

Doesn't this take a lot of micromanagement, moving units from the front lines back to provinces with high upgrade facilities? It would also seem that this would reduce the effectiveness of those high quality unit-producing provinces - don't you want those great provinces producing additional troops?

I found that relying solely on retraining troops reduced my ability to keep pace, especially early in the game when I have only a few provinces churning out troops. I really don't see the two options (merging depleted units vs retraining) as incompatible, but rather as cumulative.

i always merge units that have the same level of valour, doing it with units of different valour levels is just wasting your time.

i keep running my troops through the meatgrinder, siphoning off units that reach valour level 3 (it could be any level you wish but i prefer 3) and merge them together, getting a full strength unit with 3 valour.

if the merged units already had good arms and armour upgrades they go back to the front line, if not they get upgraded.

this is quite a bit more micromanagement than a lot of people would want to go through (and upgrading can tie up a couple of castles continiously), but i have found that ending up with several thousand men, all with level 5 valour or above, with full upgrades, tends to make it all worthwhile. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

you are better off doing this to one specific type of unit at a time, when i was playing as italy i mainly used it with italian infantry, and as spain i used jinetes.

in both cases i was able to invrease valour quickly by having what you could call a production line method, as shown above.

it still works if you use several different unit types, it just takes longer to build up those higher valour units.

doing it early on in the game is tricky as you say, i don`t bother until i get two or three castles going and start getting troops with at least one level of arms and armour into play (that way they can survive to get some valour in the first place).

it all depends on your starting position, if you get a bit of peace and quiet at the start it`s a lot easier. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Brutal DLX

02-11-2004, 11:44

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ Feb. 10 2004,14:33)]
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 10 2004,03:59)]Well, I suppose the morale level of the unit is that of the valour average of its men, thus if you mix your troops such that they maintain their average valour it is actually an advantage because the new guys will also have the veteran's morale.
mmm, not exactly, the morale level also depends on the morale boosting buildings of the province the units are trained-retrained in. churches, monasteries, reliquiaries, mosques, cathedrals, ribbats all give + to morale of the troops produced in the province.
Yeah, of course, but when mixing new and veteran troops, it's unlikely that the new guys will have a morale level that exceeds the one of the veteran unit. I would suppose the morale level of the unit stays the same as long as it doesn't go down in valour after the mixing. If it does, morale would be subtracted proportional to the valour loss. However this is just conjecture and would require testing.

Kulgan

02-11-2004, 18:02

Does one point of armour gives one point of defense?
The offense is clear as there is just the base offence+ valour bonusses + metalsmith bonusses.
But what about the armour?

ichi

02-12-2004, 04:19

Quote[/b] (Kulgan @ Feb. 11 2004,10:02)]Does one point of armour gives one point of defense?
The offense is clear as there is just the base offence+ valour bonusses + metalsmith bonusses.
But what about the armour?
Yes. Armor adds to defense, and to armor.

Let's use Porno Cav as an example. The first line shows Pronoiai at V0. Add one weapon upgrade and the Attack bonus goes up one from 4 to 5. Add one armor upgrade to a V0 Pronoiai and BOTH the defense and armor goes up.

Add 1 valor and the morale, attack, and defnse go up, but not the armor. Charge stays the same all the time.

Attack and defense come into play during melee, while armor is important to protect from missiles.

.......................Morale...ATT...DEF....Armor....Charge
Pronoiai..V0............8.......4......4$.....6$.........6
Pronoiai.V0W1.......8.......5......4$.....6$.........6
Pronoiai.V0A1........8.......4......5$.....7$.........6
Pronoiai.V1..........10.......5......5$.....6$.........6

ichi

Kulgan

02-12-2004, 22:14

Thanks Ichi, you answer all my posts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Btw you said Porno Cav... **laughs in beavis and buthead way** ... huhuhuuhuuhhuuuhuhuu

Well I got you ment Pronai, thanks again

~S~

Kraxis

02-13-2004, 02:56

Quote[/b] (Kulgan @ Feb. 12 2004,15:14)]Well I got you ment Pronai, thanks again
Eventhough it is actually Feudal Knights. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Btw, it is Pronoiai Allagion... It was one of the first units I learned to spell, because it was so odd and hard to remember.

I think the rule is that if a unit is retrained in a lower quality province, it will retain all its benefits from the first province. It would be just like adding a green unit to the unit in retraining. Morale upgrades act like other more physical upgrades. So if a unit of Byz Inf is merged with another unit that had a Churchbonus, then the resulting unit would have the Churchbonus as well.

gaijinalways

02-13-2004, 10:58

I have yet to retrain units but the idea of reequipping higher valor units sounds appealing. Sometimes I am too busy just pumping out more units pursuing the more is better theory as long as you have a decent general. Some troops rarely rout whereas other act like peasants even when they are not (first sign of trouble, they hightail it, sometimes before engaging)

How do you decide where to plan your retraining sites? Is it usually by the extra valor, armor,etc or what is convenient to the front? Of course if you have a port there, that can make it easier to ship troops out to locations with ports, but sometimes you need good troops inland or in a hurry to a troublespot.

This is why I sometimes favor mercs for causing havoc and bringing in plunder (and keeping your enemies from building up too much). Of course, sometimes the mercs are not there when you need them...

Kraxis

02-13-2004, 17:43

Think of not reequipping veterans while pumping out green units like having you veterans run around with Pzkw IV tanks while the green troops get Panthers and Tigers.

I usually keep my upgradeprovinces in my main lands to begin with. Often you don't have much money to train new troops, but enough to reinforce a unit with about 20 men. Then it is great. Later I expand the upgradeprovinces to more dedicated places. But most often at the coast so I can transport them fast, the front moves too much and is normally both at risk and basically a stone age land.

Kulgan

02-13-2004, 20:41

Retraining has great use in some situations:
When you upgrade troops to get +swords and +shields ( the bonusses from the buildings )
When you are small faction and can't afford a bigger army you can upgrade your troops to full strength after a battle again.
When you upgrade troops for the morale and or valour bonus.

In most other cases it's probably better to simply make 2 60 units of swordsmen out of your 3 beaten up units each with 40 men. And train one new unit offcourse.
This way you keep your precious valour on your units.

Chaffers

02-19-2004, 19:27

Personally I play on huge units so I never, or very rarely merge units. Thanks to Ichi's post above I might well start trying to farm weapons bonusses though. :ok:

Bear in mind that those three 40 men units will tend to have their valour weighted towards the front of the unit, ie the front rank gets the lions share of kills. If you merge them then you'll have experienced dudes in two units and a completely green unit, however the number of experienced dudes actually fighting on the front line will be less. Effectively two front ranks rather than three. Trouble is to retrain those three units will take three turns, whereas to merge and create a new unit takes two turns.

To the best of my knowledge retraining does not increase or decrease the starting morale of the unit, hence no point retraining in a Cathedral equipped city hoping for the +3 morale bonus.

Swords seem to be particularly difficult to get to high valour, purely because a great deal of the formation only fights when lots of high valour men have been lost. Therefore your front rank may well be fighting at v3 but the overall average is only v1 (seems to be fairly clear that individual valour bonusses apply in battle, though I'm not so sure about fatigue). Spreading your men out so that each gains valour works but is counter intuitive in anything other than a very easy battle. It also makes MP a very strange enviroment as v4 swords rule the roost. They only cost 8 times what a v0 costs but each man would have to have killed 16 elites or more to attain an average of v4, which never really happens.

ichi

02-23-2004, 06:49

Quote[/b] (Chaffers @ Feb. 19 2004,11:27)]Personally I play on huge units so I never, or very rarely merge units. Thanks to Ichi's post above I might well start trying to farm weapons bonusses though.
Just a friendly question Chaffers, why does unit size make a difference in merging? Do you just let them fight on at reduced numbers? I play at default settings so I was just wondering.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

ichi

Ironside

02-23-2004, 08:59

This is the reason why the comp gets those 1 unit generals. Auto-merging always keeps the armies with fully upgraded units and the old generals without armour bonuses gets emptied when the rest of the units got armour bonuses.

You'll get the same phenomenon yourself, but you can actually retrain your general, witch the computer never does.

Chaffers

02-24-2004, 03:01

Creating a new unit at huge size takes two years rather than the one at default Ichi. If I merged units and waited for a replacement then I'd be sat around training rather than pushing forward into the oppos territory, which, once you have destroyed the border garrison, is often badly defended.

If I have three spear units all knocked down to 60-70 men then I can leave one of them to train back up to 200 men in a single year, the unit also gets the benefit of 60 vaguely, and sometimes greatly, experienced dudes on its front line. The other two units can still play a role in the next battle, it just means having a narrower front to retain the rank bonus after casualties, though often you find that the battles straight after the border garrison are a doddle. With non spear units having two is almost always better as it allows greater tactical flexibility. Two units of MS at 40 strength can pin and flank, a single unit at 80 is retty much forced to slug it out head on. Those two units can then train themselves back up to strength once the next territory is conquered.

If I'd have merged all three units then I'd need 4 years to replace the 400 (or more) men that I had lost, though crucially those two new units would be full of green troops and probably without any morale bonusses too due to most religious buildings being destroyed on taking a province. Even if you have a single troop left in a unit you can still retrain to full strength in a single year, I'm not positive but I am pretty sure from results that the original moral of the unit is retained too...

Naturally all this depends on your units being retrainable in the conquered province... For this reason I tend to go for low building requirements and high morale troops.

ichi

02-24-2004, 05:31

Thanks, very clear response to my question. I can see the logic in your philosophy.

My comp just isnt powerful enough for anything but default, but if I ever upgrade your ideas will come in handy.

aregato

ichi

Kristaps

02-24-2004, 17:37

Quote[/b] (Chaffers @ Feb. 19 2004,12:27)]To the best of my knowledge retraining does not increase or decrease the starting morale of the unit, hence no point retraining in a Cathedral equipped city hoping for the +3 morale bonus.
Actually, to the best of my knowledge, retraining a unit does provide + morale bonus given the necessary buildings are in place... It seems, the morale bonus is similar to weapons and armor upgrades: it's an attribute of the whole unit not of individual soldiers like valor. Also, note that the morale bonuses stack: a church, a monastery, and a cathedral combined give a powerful bonus of +6 I believe...

Chaffers

02-26-2004, 02:05

Thats nice to know, I've certainly never felt that a unit with reasonable morale has suffered due to retraining, though morale increases are more difficult to detect (they didn't rout, and now they still dont).

I usually try to train my initial Feudals (and stick with them all the way through the game) in a good morale province, retraining them as I go. They tend to pick up armour so I don't give them any to start with, if they get weaps then great but it dosn't really affect their role one iota.

ChaosShade

03-09-2004, 02:40

try putting your swords in long two rank thick formations. This way everyone pretty much gets a chance to fight, they generally take fewer losses and gets more kills. This ammounts to a faster and more uniform gain of valour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Puzz3D

03-11-2004, 21:37

I use combining of units to leave my low loyalty generals in the smallest size unit possible and then disband them. That way I don't loose a lot of troops when getting rid of these generals.

TheLastEuropean

03-16-2004, 16:49

As pointed out, it can be a pain to have to ship all depleted units back to a reasonably upgraded province for retraining so heres a small tip I use for combining troops.

When I get seriously depleted troops I place them to one side in a province (usually coastal) creating a stack of greatly depleted units but with decent valour. When an army needs retraining I move this depleted stack to the army's position and fill up their units from the 'depleted stack' instead. Valour won't drop as the 'depleted stack' will all have reasonable valour from their previous battles and retraining such low numbers would probably drop 18 v4 troops to about 60 v2/v1 anyway. Thus, you are distributing the 'already gained valour' in a way which maintains the valour of the 'receiving' unit. Also, it means your full army can be completely 'retrained' in 2 turns (1 to move 'depleted stack' to army then 1 more to combine) and can therefore go marching onwards much sooner.

katank

03-17-2004, 03:47

well, this is an interesting idea but valour is tracked on an individual basis so it doesn't matter that they are v2/v1 in that the v4 troops are actually still there.

retraining still gives good armor and weapons though and can be great for units taking 2 years, making essentially production faster.

ichi

03-20-2004, 19:15

Quote[/b] (TheLastEuropean @ Mar. 16 2004,08:49)]As pointed out, it can be a pain to have to ship all depleted units back to a reasonably upgraded province for retraining so heres a small tip I use for combining troops.

When I get seriously depleted troops I place them to one side in a province (usually coastal) creating a stack of greatly depleted units but with decent valour. When an army needs retraining I move this depleted stack to the army's position and fill up their units from the 'depleted stack' instead. Valour won't drop as the 'depleted stack' will all have reasonable valour from their previous battles and retraining such low numbers would probably drop 18 v4 troops to about 60 v2/v1 anyway. Thus, you are distributing the 'already gained valour' in a way which maintains the valour of the 'receiving' unit. Also, it means your full army can be completely 'retrained' in 2 turns (1 to move 'depleted stack' to army then 1 more to combine) and can therefore go marching onwards much sooner.
This is essentially what I do, except that I keep my stack of depleted units in a province that I recently conquered, usually right behind the front. So for example, if I am Spain and I am moving north and east through Europe, I might take Il de France and then move into Burgundy. When my main army is in Burgundy I keep the stack of depleted units in Il de France to help with population loyalty, and they are close to the 'front' so they be combined quickly.

Good idea Last European

ichi