Orc swarm! Or, multiplayer, 1600 ByzInf?

[Russ Mitchell]

I'm a medieval scholar dealing with medieval milhist... so simply by knowing historical examples, I usually manage to spank this kid pretty bad.

But this evening he threw me a serious curve ball: HUGE amounts of Byzantine Infantry, like a wall of Uruk Hai from hell... I could bring out units to match them qualitatively, but not quantitatively, or vice versa... four games in a row, I was simply unable to either puncture them sufficiently with arrows to make a difference, or, given the size on the mtw battlefield 1600 of these creeps take up, to successfully skirmish them into exhaustion. Setting varied in terrain, and era was early-mid... the only success I had was in a bridge battle, where the natural choke point allowed me to let them "push through" after they were originally contained by a slew of genoese and order footmen, and then pound the hell out of them with a battery of catapults, with two remaining units of the order's horsement coming in at full charge to push them back into the killing zone -- at which point the AI for the byz general said "that's enough, I quit."

But the casualties I sustained even there were horrific. And since they have 100 buttkickers in each formation, pinning them and then doing them bad with archers or javilineers only seems to work on maps that inherently contain a choke point...

Any suggestions, guys? I'm this kid's "favorite adult to beat" here... I gotta have an answer for this next time we go at it... and something more clever than simply saying "feh, that's cheesy..."

[The_678]

I have no Idea if this will work but the idea came to me. Why don't yhou try fighting fire with fire. Play as the Danes and use an army of 16 Viking Huscarles. I think it might work. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Aelwyn]

Well, it is cheesy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif But apart from that, what florin level are you playing at? If he's bringing 16 Byz Inf units, you have to be either playing at a very high florin level, or he's taking low valour byz inf. If you're playing very high florins, then lower the florins to a normal level, 10-15k. And if he's taking low valour units, simply focus on the lowest valour and closest to the flank.

I guess to get more specific I would need more info. Statistically speaking, theres not a better unit than a v4 Byz Inf (I mean for the cost, you could say other units are better, but they would definitely cost a lot more). Other than that...theres seriously not a whole lot you can do against all v4 Byz Inf if he knows how to keep his army together. Try using a few horse archers to bait some units away from the rest, then hit them from the front and back with cavs. When other units come over to help, run away and still kill the routers if they're in a good position. Don't run the hell out of your horses though. The key is knowing just how much room you need. After he chases your horse archers around long enough, hit his tired units with your fresh inf. And don't take normal "Horse Archers" either. Use Szekely's or even Byzantine Cavs (if you plan on taking the same army as him). Szeks are in a Christian faction, which will still allow you to get some of the better Christian infantry.

[Aelwyn]

Quote[/b] (The_678 @ Feb. 08 2004,23:16)]I have no Idea if this will work but the idea came to me. Why don't yhou try fighting fire with fire. Play as the Danes and use an army of 16 Viking Huscarles. I think it might work. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Even v4 Vikings would lose if the kid was taking all v4 Byz Inf. But like I said, we need more info. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Monk]

His actions remind me of something i'd expect a general of Morder's armies to do, send one unit after the other, wave upon wave of your force until you break your enemy by sheer numbers.

My suggestion is this, try to get him to agree to a High game, he has already (so u say in your own words) spanked you relentlessly. Well instead of out flanking, i suggest you beat him at his own game. it's time to dust off the ol' halbrieders and axemen. Due a few custom games, each against high valor Byz infantry. Now i know these guys are tough nuts to crack, but it can be done.

My advice is AP (armor peircing) units. Halbrieds and pole arms of any type should just do the trick. If he refuses High then go English with billmen and Longbows. Losses are not a concern to him, he is willing to let every one of his units die so long as he can rout you, therefore you have to play on the same level. You say that due to the large number of them you cannot skirmish, and i know, a line of 1600 of these guys can take up the whole map. so stop trying to skirmish, charge out and meet him head on.

and try this: Instead of going valor 4, go valor 2 with armor and weapon at 3. Try that out a few times in Custom battle and see if it helps any.

The only thing that will beat him is practice. Good luck to you Russ Mitchell

this is of course, if all else fails...

[Brutal DLX]

Get some crossbows or horse archers, pump up your heavy infantry (chivalric Men at arms, militia sarges or vikings or Halberdies, whatever you can affor to bring to v4), I'd say 4 of each, then fill the rest with heavy cavalry. Try to delay the melee for as long as possible, use your crossbows or horse archers to inflict damage, focus on one unit if you can. The longer you can conduct this stage of the battle, the better your chances of winning. When the melee starts, make sure your frontline has the same lenght as his, then get your heavy cavalry to the flanks and the back of his army and charge in, try to specifically target the units that you weakened with missile fire before. If possible, retreat your cav and do multiple charges.
If you play at high florin amount, it may be hard, but still winnable, if you lower your florin amount, it will get easier because Byz Infantry that is not of valour 4 will have morale problems and rout even sooner.

[Russ Mitchell]

--More info--

Usually, I set games at a low florin level -- even lower than what has been suggested here, because I want the armies to reflect the same sorts of balances that had to be done in period... but "da kid" sets a 99k florin battle... and lately a hilly map with a bunch of woods...

I've tried doing the double/tripleteam, but have found that my flanking immediately becomes his flanking, since simply by dint of numbers, he is immediately in position to do the same thing to me... definitely y'all are right, I should try to play one flank heavily, and make the other wheel to get to me.

[Aelwyn]

Next time save a replay and upload it to the Org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif We can pick it apart and tell you the best way to attack. I am curious to see this kids' skill level with army movement. If he's all over the place then it won't be too tough to beat him. And if you're playing 99k, see what you can afford. Take CMAA at v4 and w3 maybe. Just try things out and see what works.

[Kulgan]

I thought Byz inf had low armour?
In that case the armoured piercing wouldn't be that effective.
I just looked and Byz inf has a standard armour value of 3.
CMAA4s should do well, they have 2+ attack and 1+ defense

Kulgan

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

What erea are you playing? why not just use JHI the terminators of the game if possible?

[Puzz3D]

The Byz inf weakness is their morale. When you play at 99k, you remove that weakness. The byz inf have an edge in attrition because they are 100 man units and all the other units that come close to them in combat power are 60 man units. Attrition is the overriding factor in winning at high morale.

V4 Byz inf.... 1670 and have 14 combat points.
V4W1 fmaa..... 1943 and have 16 combat points.
V4 cmaa ...... 2088 and have 16 combat points.
V4W1 mil sgt.. 1662 and have 15 (includes 1ap) combat points.
V2 chiv foot...1589 and have 15 (includes 1ap) combat points.
V2W1 var guard 1921 and have 14 (includes 1ap) combat points.

100/60 = 1.67 that's a 67% advantage due to number of men.
1 combat point is a 20% advantage.

The 1 combat point advantage the mil sgts have at equal cost is not enough to overcome the disadvantage of fewer men. Even the 2 combat point advantage the swords have at higher cost is
not enough, but you will win some matchups because it's close.

You can pick up a florin advantage on someone who takes 16 of the same unit type because there is a 20% surcharge on more than 4 of one type. Try taking 4 cmaa, 4 fmaa, 4 mil sgt and 4 chiv foot all at v4 with as many weapon and armor upgrades as you can afford. My gut feeling is this will beat 16 Byz inf. However, 8 Byz inf and 8 var guard might work better because there is less surcharge cost.

[Russ Mitchell]

Thanks Puzz, it is the number of men in the unit, and the resulting attrition problems, that are losing it for me. I can smash any three of his units at will, and damage the others... but then he's down to 20-30% of his men, and I'm at 3% of my force, currently running like hell... he's not a good tactition, but he is a steadily improving one.

He sets up in early and high, because he knows that otherwise I'll pound those dense formations of his to death with culverins and demi-culverins, or else part them like the red sea when he loosens them up to avoid the incoming fire (we do not use organ guns or serpentines, because they are not scripted in a way that is at all accurate... the culverin rate of fire is actually a bit faster than what they're representing as a serpentine was able to pull off... and the organ gun just plain shouldn't be there.).

All of these are helpful -- I'll give these a try tonight and see what happens.

[Psyco]

One thing you could try (I'm not sure if it will work) is to get half your army spears (anything that will hold out for a while, really) and half the hardest hitting cavalry available.

Deploy like this
C=Cavalry
I=Infantry
B=Byz Infantry

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

CCCC
CCCC
I I I I
I I I I

You'll probibly recognize this as a common Greek Tactic.

Your Cavalry will try to smash through his flank (byz infantry arn't very good at cavalry) while your infantry keep him busy

Later it'd be something like this (if everything goes as planned)

The Bys Inf attacked by Cavalry are routing (they have low morale)
BBBBB
CCCCCC
BBBBB
I I I BBBBBB
I I I

Your cavalry would be free to roam (and destroy) his rear.

Thats my 2 cents

[Rowan11088]

I would try some different tactics than others are espousing...Why not use strong horse archer types, and more unique units? I think it would be a great idea to use Novgorod (if you're still in early). Boyars can not only kick ass against these Byz infantry, but they are also horse archeres. The dual damage may be enough to overcome the singularized purpose of the byz infantry. Also, Druzhina Cavalry would be great I think, because not only do they have armor piercing and good fighting ability, but they are 60 men units, so your cav can approach the size of his byz infantry and really beat them up. If you want to avoid that "surcharge" mentioned before, take 4 boyars, 4 druzhina, maybe 4 Rus Spearmen to hold off some of the Byz Inf., and then 4 Vikings or 4 Woodsmen (Nov has these, right?) souped up a bit so they can compete. I think that would actually serve up a relatively easy victory against these Byz clowns :) but that's just me.

[Aelwyn]

Instead of Rus Spearmen take 4 Vikings and 4 Militia Sergs.

[Brutal DLX]

Nah..definitely take a couple of spears at 99k. You can pump them up to v4 and use them to frontally hold the byz inf and thus you get more units for flanking. Try order foot with armour upgrades. They should be holding the line for quite some time, while you work the flanks and rear with AP/sword infantry and cavalry. Don't forget to use your missiles Use them to try luring him out of the woods and disrupt his formation.

[Russ Mitchell]

All good advice. I never got to try this out last night... problems at the house ... but I'm confused as to why the spears are recommended... Every time he engages my spears, even when he's still in column (which he often is while moving, a bad habit allowing frontal-enfilading fire that I refuse to disabuse him of until he figures it out), his units cut through them like a knife through hot butter. It's ugly: within twenty seconds, the unit is down two-thirds...

Am I missing something?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Am I missing something?
A good high valour serpentine. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I know you can't use it. I was just joking...

[Puzz3D]

The sword/spear balance was adjusted in the mtw v1.1 patch to make swords clearly beat spears by giving them a hidden +1 attack bonus vs spears and increasing the cost of spears by about 15%. The Byz inf got this benefit as well since they are a sword unit, but were increased in cost from 175 to 200 in vi v2.0.

v1 byz inf cost 340 have 3/5 att/def + 1/0 bonus vs spears
v0 order foot cost 400 have 0/5 att/def + 1/2 rank bonus

The Byz inf have 9 total combat points vs spears for 340 florins and the order foot only 8 combat points for 400 florins, and that's only as long as they maintain a depth of 3 men for the full rank bonus. I've included the 0/2 for the large shieled in the numbers for both units. These units both have the same morale when the Byz inf are one point higher valor. You might be able to hold long enough if the spears are set in a deep formation, and there is the surtax on more than 4 of a unit working against the player with 16 Byz inf. Since there is more than one spear type, you can avoid the surtax and still get more than 4 spears, but the other spear types are weaker on a cost/benefit scale. You could take more than 4 order foot and absorb some surtax penalty to get the superior unit. You have the problem of maintaining a solid front with the spears because they'll get eaten alive from the sides. The Byz inf player can be a lot more formless in how he uses his unit.

[Daevyll]

Byzantine infantry have only one real drawback if I recall correctly, and that is a lack of punch vs armoured targets.

So I'd take the heaviest armoured infantry unit you can lay your hands on, perhaps combined with something to rack up the kills quickly.

Have you tried Saracen Infantry with some Ghazi thrown in? (3-1 mix or so)

[Demequis]

Guys please correct me if I'm wrong....I usually use the rock/paper/scissors metaphor when determining how to fight my battles in mtw...
If he deploys an all sword army, should an all cav army annihilate it?

Byz inf has no armor piercing or rank bonus, so it seems to me that a unit like say...lancers? They have ludicrous stats...their initial defense is so high that his swords shouldnt' dent ya too bad. V3 lancers cost the same as v4a3 byz inf.

Anything wrong with this?

[Rowan11088]

Ha I'd love to see those lancers slicing through the byz infantry :) Though in all honesty, I don't think that's such a good plan here. The lancers will not be able to get much of a valor upgrade, so they really might get bogged down and killed. I did just come up with a good combo though, based on actual stat calcing...My earlier Russian advice still stands, but I realize the 40 man boyar units might have trouble, and the Druzhina stats are not astounding. What I think might really work is using the Turks, even if it is in Early. I think the answer to Byz Inf. is Futuwwa For some odd reason, though at 0 valor they cost more than byz inf, at 4 they cost less than valor 4 byz inf I'm not sure why, maybe because of discounts on archer units, but it's wonderful :) They also have large shield bonuses, so in that sense their stats are on an even playing field. Valor 4, Weapon 2 Futuwwa cost only 7 florins more than valor 4 Byz Inf, have 60 man units, can SHOOT THE BYZ INF before they even reach the turk dudes, perhaps even using some scattering techniques to get additional fire against specific units, and then can I think actually beat them in melee at that point. Valor 4 Weapon 2 Futuwwa have an incredibly attack value of 10, higher morale than the byz inf, and a shield-incorporated defense of 4. Logically they should be an exact match for the Byz inf. stat wise, but with the arrows before-hand I think they can definitely win, plus morale bonuses will allow them to fight to the last man, while the byz. inf will flee in terror after being pounded by arrows. Either match up 16 byz. against 16 futuwwa, or scatter around to concentrate arrow fire with them. Alternatively, use futuwwa along with other types of skirmishers to max. florin value.

[RisingSun]

Aw, somebody took my lancer advice... Fight cheese with cheese. The billmen idea is good. Billmen should tear up BI at equal valour and a good charge, no?

[Brutal DLX]

I suggested some spears, not all spears. At 99k you can afford to get them to valour 4 and some defence upgrades. V4 Byz Infantry then will definitely NOT kill the spears within seconds if you position your spears in the center flanked by other strong infantry. Especially if the kid doesn't try to use wedge with the Byz Inf.
The idea behind this is to get a longer frontline or at least match his, so your army doesn't get outflanked on both sides.
And an all cav army might work, but taking 16 Lancers will cost a lot more than taking 4 Lancers, 4 ChivKnights, 4 Knights of Santiago and 4 Feudal Knights. If you can't envelope his army quickly, you might still lose because knights come in units of 40 men only. Also it appears that the map is usually hilly and wooded, ie not suited for cavalry tactics. Also Lancers appear in Late only, if I recall correctly, and it seems the games are Early and High mostly.

[Cheetah]

Well, if it is 99k, terrain hilly and wooded, and you have to face 16 byz inf pumped upto v4 then my best advise is to

.
.
.
.

RUN http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

There is really nothing you can do. Byz inf is still the best sword unit, you will find nothing that can beat them head on for the same price. Also, for the same reason they are the best forest fighters.

Your only hope is cavalry, the heavier the better, or strong hybrid cavalry like boyars. But obviously the kid is clever enough not to pick steppes. On steppe I would face them with 16 boyars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif or with 12 boyars and 4 pumped up mil.serg.

Otherwise try to fragment the battle, create several small fights instead of one big one. Manouvre a lot, tire them out, and last but not least try to create a chainrout

[Ranges]

If i may make a suggestion (even though i'm completely inexperienced with multiplayer);

The following tactic might work, even though it is the complete opposite of a flanking maneuver, it has a certain.. Agressive charm..

Basically, i'm suggesting the following setup;

Code Sample
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB



IIIIII III IIIIII
CC CC CC CC
H H H
[/QUOTE]
Now, what's what?

I = Infantry. Pick a sword unit that can last for awhile, and string it out until it's only 1 or two men deep.
About 4 units of these

C = Cavalry. Preferably heavy, hard hitting, armor piercing, cavalry. Speed is irrelevant; you are already in position.
About 4 units of these

H = Highland clansmen or similar units, in wedge formation, for extra shock power
About 4 units of these

The plan is as follows;

Use the strung out swordsmen to pin the enemy down, and keep him occupied. If he keeps his infantry in standard formation, he will not wrap around you too easily.

Once your infantry has made contact with the Byz Inf, you can charge your cav through the openings, probably cutting through his forces rather efficiently.

After this, you can use your fast infantry (highland clansmen sound fine) to mop up, chase, or add extra shock in those places where the enemy line won't budge.

Beware, though, that this entire plan rests on the ability of the infantry to hold ground, and not break. High morale & defense are therefore crucial.

So much for my advice / ideas..

An interesting tactical puzzle, i should experiment with this...
-Ranges

[Russ Mitchell]

With fairly open terrain (Carcano) I managed to, after a little effort, pound the crap out of him with 4 cmaa and a slew of longbowmen. But that was mostly because the AI committed his troops fairly piecemeal, rather than swarming them all in at once... "da kid" tends to group his forces into two wings, and then go for the center.

No luck with the boyars... even after extensive pounding, once they're remotely head-to-head, it's over embarrassingly quickly (see unit sizes for problems flanking a human opponent).

I have problems with my battles crashing, so a couple other things I tried never made it... (would love to know why my game crashes, but I suspect that it's just plain not stable).

[Kraxis]

Hm... sad to see that heavy horse archers don't work. But then again they are up against large numbers of good morale infantry. They were my initial idea for victory.

If you are to try to use the Boyars again, try to have them work in small groups. Get him to spilt the infantry up then get the Boyars to fire into the rear of them. It is rather hard, but can be done. That should have his losses surge up.

The Futuwwa idea might work... But I doubt it. They will most likely not be able to kill enough Byz Inf before melee.

What do you mean by the AI commits his army... doesn't he control it himself?

Anyway, try and tell him that the game was not meant for 99k with two players, but with 8 players, and even then it might be considered a bit high by many.

[Russ Mitchell]

I only get to play with the kid every few weeks, so in-between, trying to figure out how to handle it, is running tests vs. AI. What I mean was, that the kid throws in two wings of troops fairly closely coordinated: the movement angles he uses while marching in column means that if you're int he middle he flanks you, and if you try to take one wing's flank in turn, he simply turns that unit and moves forward with a very long facing line while the other wing continues a marching circle. Whereas the AI uses a more traditional infantry line, so whichever units start to come forward... well, that's the line that gets the hell pounded out of it with five or six units of longbowmen...

[Ranges]

Well,
It seems that i managed to kill the AI on hard, with 10 v4 byz inf.. But it was a toughy.

I did it with the english..

My army consisted of;
4 feudal foot knights (v4, w3, a3)
4 feudal men at arms (v4, w3, a3)
3 kerns (v4)
1 order foot general unit (v4)
4 alan merc cav (v4, w3, a0)


Now, i made a formation that was weighed to the left, with all the men at arms and cav there.
The right side of my formation (which was supposed to hit the enemy formation in the middle...) consisted of; 4 feudal foot knights, 3 kerns.

The general unit was placed in the center of my formation, and was used to keep the two sides at least somewhat in contact.

Now, my first order was for the 4 FMAA to charge the byzzies.

My cav swung around, two hitting him from the side, while two others are angling for the rear of the Byzzies.

The foot knights were simply advancing slowly towards the byzzies, on hold formation (for the defense bonus).

the idea of the excercise was to keep his right flank occupied while slaughtering his left.

Also, the 3 kerns in in the right of my formation concentrated on their general, causing him to flee after awhile.

Once the byz inf broke, it was done with.
My casualties were about 550, the byz lost over 1500.

I hope this helps a bit...
greets,
-Ranges

[Kraxis]

You could also try a few units of Naphta. But then you need some unit that can hold the line for a while, and that forces you to use the Byzantines too and large numbers of Byz Inf.
The Naphtas are dangerous to use as their bombs might land in your lines, but the potential is great. I think they should be able to rout the Byz Inf. even at V4.

[Russ Mitchell]

Quote[/b] (Ranges @ Feb. 12 2004,12:41)]Well,
It seems that i managed to kill the AI on hard, with 10 v4 byz inf.. But it was a toughy.

I did it with the english..

My army consisted of;
4 feudal foot knights (v4, w3, a3)
4 feudal men at arms (v4, w3, a3)
3 kerns (v4)
1 order foot general unit (v4)
4 alan merc cav (v4, w3, a0)


Now, i made a formation that was weighed to the left, with all the men at arms and cav there.
The right side of my formation (which was supposed to hit the enemy formation in the middle...) consisted of; 4 feudal foot knights, 3 kerns.

The general unit was placed in the center of my formation, and was used to keep the two sides at least somewhat in contact.

Now, my first order was for the 4 FMAA to charge the byzzies.

My cav swung around, two hitting him from the side, while two others are angling for the rear of the Byzzies.

The foot knights were simply advancing slowly towards the byzzies, on hold formation (for the defense bonus).

the idea of the excercise was to keep his right flank occupied while slaughtering his left.

Also, the 3 kerns in in the right of my formation concentrated on their general, causing him to flee after awhile.

Once the byz inf broke, it was done with.
My casualties were about 550, the byz lost over 1500.

I hope this helps a bit...
greets,
-Ranges
10 vs. 16 is a great big deal... I'm going to try a "field shift" strategy, whereby I will pivot my army and retreat it in order to create a sort of centralized killing ground into which all the archers can fire. If I can keep from being flanked, it ought to give me a chance, I'm thinking.

[Loki]

Ranges is on to something. Local superiority is an old military trick, and in this game can be the key to starting a chain rout. But as a military historian you already knew this I'm sure. It definitely could work. The trick will be, your "sacrificial" units have to hold out long enough.....

I love a good tactical challenge so I was playing around with your scenario. I found something rather interesting I thought I'd share with you regarding your looming face off with "El Cid" (hard C there) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

As this is a 99K florin game, money should be no object at all. This is a Varsity Lineup that will smoke the Byz.

Put your Saracens in the center. If left alone long enough they would eventually break but they should hold long enough to let your Jane's crush both his flanks and roll them up.... Classic.

The really cool thing about it is you would be kicking his but with an historically accurate foe too. Ahhh the irony

http://home.mchsi.com/~mack_rc51/Janes.JPG

Good luck Russ, and remember... Age, experience and treachery will ALWAYS triumph over youth and talent

[RisingSun]

How about this- Pick Byzantines and do the same thing. Then, since you are better at the actual game, simply outmaneuver him and generally outplay him. That ought to show him that it certainly wasn't his skill winning those battles, but his cheese. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Kraxis]

Loki, have you tested that setup?

I'm not at all certain that JHI would be enough, they are better troops, but they lack numbers.

[Aelwyn]

I tested just a minute ago using 10 JHI at v4, 3 Saracens v4, 3 Alans v4...two of them w1. It worked very well. I uploaded the replay just so you can see how it worked. Not that it will be at all the same, but at v4 JHI have 16 morale points, and my lowest number of men left in any unit was 16 I believe, and that unit killed 100 and captured 20. v4 JHI are real killers, and the v4 Saracens held surprisingly well. Use the Alans for chasing so he has less men to rally. You can find the uploaded savegame here (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWrecords/) its obviously called 1600_byz_inf.zip

[Aelwyn]

I just tried it with almost all Boyars. It doesn't work as well, is much harder to control, but you can get pretty close. The key is just like Cheetah said, you need to start some chain routes. Just to give you an idea of how it could work, here's a savegame of it. I could only afford 15 v4 Boyars, and 1 v4 Druzhina...which came in handy later on. You can also find it here (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWrecords/) Try out some things and see what works for you.


A square formation also worked. I took Hungary in Early. 7 Armoured Spears, 5 Bulgarian Brigands, 4 Szekelys. The Szeks were v4 w3 a3. Use the Szeks to lure him to your square. He won't be able to resist attacking it. Focus your Brigand fire on the units that seem to be in front, about to attack, then once they do, on the units behind them. If you can get your Szeks on a flank to double a few units, you can open up the sides so you can charge the back of his units attacking your square, routing them as well. I always like to take a few cavs against an army like that for mobility and chasing.

[Loki]

Aelwyn,

Quick question for you... Sadly I'm at work and can't do any testing myself nor can I view your replay GAH But just curious, how did the Boyars do against the Byz? Did the missle capability give them the chance to knock the numbers of the Byz down enough so that they could close to HTH and win?


Also the Saracen inf was a recent and VERY pleasent surprise for me. If you are playing around and wanna have some fun put them up against some CMA's and watch them kick but.

PS Kraxis,
Before I posted that this eavining I had tested it with the unit linup I showed against 16 V4 Byz. in a custom battle. It was a slaughter. And FYI the Janes are a 100 man unit as well. They are just REALLY expensive so not often used. But a 99K florin game SCREAMS "Janes"

[motorhead]

@loki
even if u play on huge, your 100 man JHI are going to be facing 166 man byz inf, unless you're playing with a custom unit file.

[Aelwyn]

The problem with the Boyars was handling all of them. I never paused, since you wouldn't be able to do it while facing another human opponent. If I had been able to pause, I am positive I would have won. I killed almost 1200 (including kills and captures) but it just wasn't enough. There were about 3 semi-large units left. Taking out 1600 men has a lot to do with routing them and capturing them while they're running. The Boyars were able to get a unit down 10% maybe before I had to do some retreating. It would come out different if Horse Archers ran away from all units, and not just the one they're shooting at, which was the problem. I tried it twice, the first time not very successfully, since I tried shooting upfront with all of them. The second time I focused first on the flanks so I only had 6 units to watch at a time, 3 on each flank. This helped me use the ammo from the other units more effectively since all the Byz Inf were trying to deal with those 6 units. In a few instances I just let the Boyars fight, since I had other units to watch and maneuver. I'm sure it can be done, but by a Human opponent it would be even harder I feel. So, I wouldn't recommend that many Horse Archers unless you're very good with them.


Also, Longbows are real destructive against them. I took only 4 of them on v4 w3 a3. I didn't even use 8 units, I never had to. I killed over 1000 and lost just over 200. If you focus all Longbows on one flank, and have some cavs to back them up, I'm sure you can get him to attack the longbows, giving you an easy chance to flank the end units as the Longbows skirmish away from them, then double them and they rout in 10 seconds or less usually.

[Duke of York]

Hey all

i have to admit this tactic used by the kid is pretty chessy, but alas is not against the rules..although i consider myself to be pretty much a newbie with only 2 victories and a loss in mutiplayer against a friend..ive got some suggestions that hopefully might help.

im generally favour the Turkish, as they are a great faction with many specailized units and the fact that historically they were the downfall of the byznatinum empire.


Now my ideas

Going up against v4, 16 groups of 100 of byzantium infantry is at start a daunting task.The fact that these soldiers are excellent swordsman and in general brillant,doesnt help much, however having only 16 units of foot soldiers is in itself a weakness. Im interested in your set up of your troops and the proceddings before your troops clash, whether or not there is any customary taunting etc. anyway. having 16 foot men, restricts the amount of mobility of the army by far. and therefore you should do as much as possbile to exploit one these weaknesses.

my idea of attack/defence would be something like this although im not sure itd be affordable even on 99k.
Spilt the army into two groups Group Alpha for hodling the bulk of the army and Group Beta which conists of calvary.

Group Alpha.
5*units of Saceren infantry or any other spears
2*units of Janissary or muhawid foot infantry, or Ghazi
infantry
2*units of naptha throwers
2*units of archers..any archers would do depending on costs
preferabbly futawaa

Group Beta
Consists of the rest...about 5 units of calvary...try to get the best unit for killing and routing masses of infantry...my suggestion would be 4 units of Aremanin calvary because they are the only thing to come into mind..other better suggestions should come up..and the last unit should either a group of ghulam bodygurads cos they pack a powerful punch...

All these units should be powered up as far as possible, wiht weapon and armor upgardes...i guess youd have to do this at your discretion..

battle plan..

If your on the defense..id suggest that youd line up your sacaren infantry and have the other infantry to plug gaps when they appear. the spears, hold the byz. infantry for as long as possbile ..while the archers engage with bows and the napatha throwers go in for the kill. when the byz inf wrap around your flanks ride out the calvary from the cover and hit those flaks..hopefully you can rout them..

unfortuantely im no good in offense so cant help you there


well there is the end of my rant..if anyone here thinks im a fool..just raise your hand and say so

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

cheers

[Ranges]

Quote[/b] (Russ Mitchell @ Feb. 12 2004,15:03)]10 vs. 16 is a great big deal... I'm going to try a "field shift" strategy, whereby I will pivot my army and retreat it in order to create a sort of centralized killing ground into which all the archers can fire. If I can keep from being flanked, it ought to give me a chance, I'm thinking.
My bad for messing up my typing.
It were 16 Byz inf...
Sorry

Well, aside from that, i found one tactic / trick extremely useful in my battle;

Since you have such intensely limited space for flanking, your flanking horsemen are bound to get caught up in a frontal melee if you're not careful. this is a terrible waste of horsemen, of course..

Now, to avoid this i formed my horsemen into long, narrow groups, about 4 or 5 horsemen wide and quite a few deep. this way they could get around the enemy formation, without having to fight their way through it.

Also, wide shallow infantrymen, CMAA, for example, can hold out for awhile against byz infantry. they take horrendous losses, but they hold, and inflict casualties.

The effect of local superiority was quite staggering, i had as many as 6 or 7 byz infantry routing within 2 minutes, and the other flank of the enemy only got close enough later, so they couldnt inflict the heaviest damage by sandwiching my units..

I'll have to perfect this approach..

[Russ Mitchell]

Heh. I may have the book-knowledge, but some of you guys are clearly superior tacticians to me... I'd have NEVER thought of trying a square formation in this... (and I have to say, it's really cool when your friends' kids get old enough to play with, let alone to think up something that hands you your ass, cheese though it be...)

Everything I'm hearing suggests that I should work on improving my gameplay, and stick with my original plan of trying to destroy one of his groups before making contact with the other.

[Revenant69]

This is my favorite entertainment thread that I read http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif It should be renamed "When Barney attacks..." LOL Sorry I just find the whole concept funny.

I wish I was an MP specialist but since I play SP only I cant really give you an advice. Even in SP barney can be difficult to beat. I remember surrounding one barney unit with 3 swiss halberdiers and chopping them for 10 minutes till all the halberdiers were made into Swiss cheese. The barney was a 7 star general (if I remember correctly) and was down to like 10 men and chased off / destroyed a few more of my units. So I feel your pain.

Hopefully you will find a solution to the Barney onslaught. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Rev

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya sez...

Get KINIGITS

Vanya sez... Get at LEAST 4-6 kinigit units. Best use the crusader units if early, or the chiv + crusader if in high/late. Now the finesse...

Arrange your INFANTRY in a line. On the wings, put some infantry units staggered back behind the line. This will give your line a concave look. Put cavalry all behind in a seemingly boring linear arrangement.

If the hordist has all his byz in a monolithic line, this will do nicely.

Don't give him the change to dictate the pace. You go for the attack and aim your army at his center or the nearest flank. As you approach his lines, break your infantry in two and send each half outwards from your center. This will create a gap in your center. Now, while still on the move, select your kinigits and put them into wedgie formation and CHARGE them through the gap at the byz line. The kinigits will rip them to shreds. After they have been engaged for a while, put them back in close formation. Use your infantry to hold off the surrounding units so youz don't get surrounded. His far away corner units will have a hard time getting there in time to help out. The objective is to break at least 1-2 units with the cav charge. If you do this, you will mop up.

Vanya sez... don't bother getting any missile units for this tactic, as those units will be useless in this scheme.

Naturally, the more cav the better.

Vanya sez... if you go byz to fight his byz, get kats instead. 16 kats should hand the 16 byz their heads on a stick.

GAH

[Knight_Yellow]

Either

English army with pumped up billmen.

or

Byz army with varagian (sp?) guards pumped up and Byz infantry to support.

those guards will sluaghter any unit, ANY.

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya uploaded battle vs AI with your situation... Vanya attack defender that has 16 v4w1 and 2 a1 byz infantry. Name of file is Vanya_vs_Byz_Rush.zip. Vanya not sure if uploaded successfully or not, or when the admins will put it up in downloads section. Bear in mind this was vs the AI.

The idea is same as Vanya described. Yielded massacre. Vanya did:

Vanya used Spanish in High.
Vanya got 4 chiv kinigits and 4 santiagos. Vanya wrapped up army with 8 order foot.

Vanya sez... order foot used to just hold enemy. Real killing is with kinigits. In battle, Vanya walk up to enemy head on, with 6 kinigits on one flank, and the order foots holding the center and the opposite in a hanging line. 2 kinigits were held back to support the infantry line.

Vanya charge flank with 4 chivs in wedgies, and held 1 santiago in reserve behind the charge while the other went around the corner into the backfield. The infantry just lined up to absorb the approaching byz help.

Byz corner totally routs once backfield santiago dances on skulls. Reserved santiago behind cav charge is now free to outflank the rest of the byz. Soon, the byz are surrounded, and they still have 3-4 units far away out of touch. Their general is nailed like a virgin on prom night, and the rampaging cav come back to clean up.

The order foot eventually did cave in in some places, but their fleeing was inconsequential to the battle. By then, the enemy was too few and their general was flat on his back.

Take a looksie at Vanya's replay to see if this will help youz. Oddly enough, the AI lined up in a big monolithic line, just as youz had described.

Vanya's strategy is aimed at hitting one side quickly before the distant opposite side can help out. Youz will see enemy left evaporate before Vanya's horsemen at beginning of battle

Let Vanya know if battle not make it to upload section Vanya can re-upload or email it to somebody.

GAH

[RisingSun]

IDEA IDEA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

I have a great idea that could either win with grace, or could degenerate into a bloodbath that you still might win. My idea? Psychological warfare. It depends on how well he knows the game.

You first must pick some kind of heavy cav unit, that when seen on an MP battlefield immediately inspires the remark, "OH SH*T" I'm not sure what this unit is, since I don't play much MP, but Kats, Lancers, Knights of Santiago/Hospitaller, things like that.

Now, you have to pump them up to V4, and maybe some weapons/armor ups. But those are unnecessary. Then, you pick some kind of good infantry, and this is where you should spend all your upgrades and money. But, don't fill up all slots in your army. Leave a few free. Use the extra money to pump up your infantry or your cav.

When the game starts, he'll notice the deficit, and think that you ran out of $ or theyre hiding. Dispell the former idea by saying something to the effect of "Shit, I spent so much money on these cavalry that I ran out of cash to fill all my slots. Prepare to get your butt kicked by V4 W3 A3 (insert cav name here) coupled with (insert kickass inf name here, even if you don't have em).

Now, bait his army into the open, away from the trees and most hills. Then make bold moves with your cavalry, trying to scare him. Promenade them around to make sure he sees 'em. Now make all sorts of threatening moves that he tries to counter, and slowly herd the unwitting enemy into a corner or unadvantageous situation. He'll probably care more about losing a couple units than realizing if he threw the whole army at the cav he would win quickly. Keep your infantry close to make sure he can't really do this anyway. Once you have him in a bad spot, finally get him with part of your inf, when he tries to flank, don't let him and get him in the back with your cavalry. They might be a little tired, but so will he if his units have been marching quickly to get out of the way of your "Super Cav"

The reason to spend the most money on the inf is because they are the guys who need to survive long enough for your cav to be the hammer once the melee finally starts.

Hope you use this. If it works I'll be glad.

[Aelwyn]

I tried the Varagian thing, but it didn't work for me. They were all v4 and a few weapon upgrades as well. I wasn't aware of the fact that any Knights could beat Byz Inf on v4, I suppose its worth a shot though, if Vanya says it works.

[Ranges]

Vanya;
Well, i got a full, all knights army; 4 chiv knights, 4 teutonic knights, 4 teutonic sergeants, 4 feudal sergeants (light cav kinda guys, i may have the name wrong here...)

Now, i sent the heaviest knights down the enemy throat, used the rest to flank and to hit the rear.
I failed miserably.

RisingSun;
As for psychological warfare and maneuver, i'm afraid that any room for maneuver and fancy footwork will have to be fought for. The whole strength of the horde of Byzzies is that they deny you any room for maneuver; there are so many of them that you simply dont get any room.

Hence the tactic of smashing one flank to break open your maneuver space.

In a way this method is very similar to the german Blitzkrieg strategy; Use local numerical superiority to smash a part of the front, then exploit the opening by maneuvering in the enemies rear area.

I believe that a generalized army setup for most factions would be;

4 very heavy infantry
4 high defense spearmen / infantry
4 heavy cavalry for flanking
4 light cavalry for chasing routers, harassing an rear attacks.

Unless i'm very much mistaken, any faction can create such an army with greater or lesser efficiency..

[Vanya]

GAH

Did youz take a looksie at Vanya's replay (assuming it is available by now at org downloads)?

GAH

[R'as al Ghul]

What about Gothic Knights?
The Yas_Calculator says they smash them easily.
16 units of V4 Gothic Knights. Sounds good to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Is the Calculator of any use in this sort of situation?
Just thinking....

[Aelwyn]

He would have a number of alternatives if he could play in Late era, but he said that its mostly early and high. Gothics would be nice, or Lancers, but not an alternative in this situation. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

[RisingSun]

However, if the psychological tactic works, he will MAKE your room by running away from the "super-cav". However, since he just beat your all cav army, his confidence against cav probably just rose considerably...

[RZST]

im surprised noone has tried desert warfare :).
i viewed the all boyars replay and noticed some of the bzy units got tired rather quickly, i wonder if they can get tired quicker on desert :).
ill try this out, ill be egpyt...or turks o.o maybe use camels instead of horses.

edit:
ok, i tested em out. i did 3 rounds, 2 on hard and 1 on expert. the hard ones were easy, they routed fast but on expert my saracens gave way :(
my lineup included. (cant remember exactly)
1 kwarazmiam cav 4valor, 3weapon
3 bedouin camel warriors 4valor, 3weapon, 3armor
1 saharan cav 2valor, 2weapon, 1armor
4 saracens 4valor, 3armor
6 abyssinian guard 4valor, 3weapon, 2armor
1 abyssinian guard 4valor, 2weapon, 1armor OR 1 naptha 4valor, 3weapon

my positions were:
si=saracen inf
a=abyssinian guard
kc=kwarazmiam cav/general
c=bedouin camel
sc=saharan cav
Code Sample
sisi sisi
a a a kc a a a
c sc a c c
[/QUOTE]
the byz position was just a straight line with the majority in the center, on hard my saracens withstood the attacks along with my kwarazmiam cav, which filled the gap between the 2 saracen groups. the abyssinians were doing ok while my cavalry attacked from flanks, both the flanks broke then the center was slowly wavering then chain rout :) the long abyssinian was there to plug any holes, it could be a naptha but those require attention.
i did this 2 times on a hard, desert and the enemy routed all the time.
the 3rd time i tried expert and my saracens routed :( they were left with 50- people my abyssinians werent going good since they were literally fighting to the last man and my cav just cant handly the numbers...my general died, he was in the center of it all, him dying caused everyone to rout. doh
well am going to try mamluk horse archers to lure some out.

question, are all the byz valor4? i put mine valor 4 on all of em and 1 weapon and 1 armor. that right? im playing 99k.

[Aelwyn]

Yeah all v4. Desert would work, but you'd have to deploy back and make them walk further. Also, don't add armour to your troops as it will only tire you out faster. And kwarazmiam cavs are too armoured for the desert. I'd suggest have all units v4, and all with weapon upgrades, but even if you have money left, not spending it on armour in the desert. just my suggestion though. doubt this kid will fall for a desert game, but maybe once http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Cazbol]

Keep in mind that el Kid is choosing hilly and forested maps. He knows it puts him at the greatest advantage. Therefore, solutions requiring different maps won't help poor Russ Mitchell when he next faces his little nemesis.

[Ranges]

Maybe we could stage some online training games, to see if we (org players) can come up with a lineup that will smash a human opponent who fields 16 v4 w1 or a1 Byz inf..

I'll try to get online tonight.
Any other takers?

PS; i have NO multiplayer experience whatsoever, so be warned..

EDIT:
TOnight being; 1800 CET or after, on the 16th of februari 2004.. :P

[Cazbol]

I'll try to be there, i.e. if I can decipher the CET to GMT+1 and if nothing else interferes.

[Cheetah]

I have tried an Egyptian all cav army and an Italian mixed army, both high era, arid, steppesinland05. It was a bloody massacre http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

me (egypt) 1443 : 458 AI
me (italians) 1367 : 402 AI

Of course a human player would pull out a better result, the AI is just plain dumb. Though the lack of cavalry would case a serious problem even for humans.

Egyptian army:
4 Mam.cavs v4a1w1
4 Kwarizm.cavs v4a2w1
4 Faris v4a3w1
4 Mam.HA v4a2w1

Italian army:
4 Chiv.knights v4w1
4 Hosp.knights v4w1
4 Italian inf. v4a1w1
1 Orderfoot v4a1w1
1 Orderfoot v4a2w1
1 xbowmen v3
1 xbowmen v2w1

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kraxis]

Shouldn't it be possible to defeat him with 4 Byz Inf and 12 Varangians? Or 8-10? The less lost money sould mean the Varangians could kick the rear of the Byz Inf.

[Cazbol]

I arrived too late for the online test so I did one custom battle against the AI. In 9 minutes and 9 seconds I lost 247 men, while I killed and captured 1.424 byzantine infantry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

However, it must be said that the AI's shortcomings were apparent. On the other side I only did this one test and I would certainly make improvements in my army composition if I did it again.

Here are the details.
Era: Early (no cheating here)
Map: Hillyinland28; Western European; Lush (the most forested hilly map I could find)
Season: Spring
Difficulty: Normal (giving the barneys a morale boost would be wrong)
Money: 99.999 for each side

Byzantine army: AI
- 6 Byzantine infantry: v4; w3; a0
- 10 Byzantine infantry: v4; w2; a0
number of men: 1.600
total cost: 99.808

Almohad army: I
- 5 ghulam bodyguards: v4; w3; a0 (the general got +1 armour)
- 8 Almohad urban militia: v4; w3; a0 (2 units got +1 armour)
- 3 hashishin: v4; w3; a0
number of men 616 (outmanned by almost a thousand men)
total cost: 99.897

I defended on a hill and let the Byzantines come to me. I sent the 3 hashishin to approach their right flank but did not intend them to attack until they had found the general. Never having tried hashishin before, I failed to disable their fire at will order so they began harassing the byzantines' extreme right flank. This confused the AI which split up its force to engage the hashishin. Meanwhile 2 byzanine units went it alone against my main force (1 at a time) and got whipped by a unit of Almohad urban militia and ghulam bodyguards. Only after that did the main armies clash and the byzantines never had a chance in that engagement. The Almohad urban militia just attacked frontally while the ghulams went around their back.

There were some errors in my micromanagement (no pause during the battle) and I'd probably leave the hashishin at home and replace them with 2 units of Almohad urban militia and 1 unit of ghulam bodyguards.

If anyone wants the replay then I can email it as I don't know where to put it for download. Alternatively, you could help me post it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Cazbol]

I tried another battle against the AI and these are the details:

Era: Early
Map: Liegnitz; Western European; Lush (even larger forests)
Season: Spring
Difficulty: Normal
Money: 99.999 for each side

Byzantine army AI
- 6 Byzantine infantry: v4; w3; a0
- 10 Byzantine infantry: v4; w2; a0
number of men: 1.600
total cost: 99.808

English army I
- 4 royal knights: v4; w3; a0
- 4 feudal knights: v4; w3; a0
- 4 feudal foot knights: v4; w3; a0
- 4 feudal men-at-arms: v4; w3; a1
number of men: 720
total cost: 99.552

The AI didn't display the same shortcomings as in the Almohad battle as this was largely a head on attack along all the front. My cavalry managed to engage some hapless barneys out in the open and slaughtered them effortlessly while my infantry fought in the woods. Eventually all my infantry routed but by then most of the byzantines were dead or fleeing. Their general was among the fleeing and was soon captured which routed more Byzantines and the rest was just about mopping up.

I lost 532 men while killing and capturing 1.511 Byzantines in 8 minutes and 8 seconds. Replay available through email.

I found the Almohad battle easier, which may partly be because of smaller forests on hillyinland28.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Vanya @ Feb. 14 2004,10:02)]GAH

Did youz take a looksie at Vanya's replay (assuming it is available by now at org downloads)?

GAH
GAH

Cazbol tried to get Vanyas replay but Cazbol didn't see it in the download section.

GAH

[RZST]

another question, is "the kid" always on defense or attacking?
coz i always put the byz on my game as attacking and im defending :)
and does the kid also add weapon and armor upgrades?

cazbol, you should do 3 tries with games against ai just to be sure, 1 on normal 1 on hard then 1 on expert, in my experience tactics that work on normal dont work that well on hard and expert.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Ky Kiske @ Feb. 16 2004,14:54)]cazbol, you should do 3 tries with games against ai just to be sure, 1 on normal 1 on hard then 1 on expert, in my experience tactics that work on normal dont work that well on hard and expert.
That is quite true. However, raising the difficulty also gives the AI units significantly better morale and an all byz. inf. army benefits extremely from that. The key to defeating an all byz. inf. army is routing them quickly and then following up. Such a quick rout will not happen on expert because the AI morale boost makes them fight almost to the last man.

Sadly the AI doesn't perform its best on normal but always playing on expert may lead people to ignore the morale route to victory when facing humans with normal morale.

[RZST]

ahh but see if you defeat the expert byz inf with high morale then a human byz inf with normal moral wouldn't be much of a problem now would he :) am talking about routing his army. tactics on the other hand, well humans are more random than ai :p

[Aelwyn]

Also, isn't the morale bonus only on Expert? I always play the AI on Hard, which I thought had no morale boost for the AI. Otherwise if it did, I would just play on Expert.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Aelwyn @ Feb. 16 2004,21:42)]Also, isn't the morale bonus only on Expert? I always play the AI on Hard, which I thought had no morale boost for the AI. Otherwise if it did, I would just play on Expert.
Question about ai (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=10866;hl=morale+and+expert+and+hard)

According to longjohn2 from CA the AI's combat effectiveness at Hard is increased by 10-15%.

[Aelwyn]

Well thanks Cazbol. Still, I feel that "Hard" is the most even level. It doesn't give a player 75% of a valour upgrade, but it does have some AI advantages that can make it a bit harder to play. I feel they are necessary to make the game somewhat interesting.

[Ranges]

For those who were online yesterday for a test game, i apologize for my absence.

It seems my ISP didnt quite agree with me.. :/

[Cazbol]

No worries. It seems like I was the only one there and I was 20 minutes late myself. Just speak up if you want to try again.

[kawligia]

If this was mentioned before, sorry, there are just too many posts to catch up on.

I noticed you said you used Boyars, but did you use them to fight melee?

I say fight cheese with cheese. Use 16 fast mounted missle units, preferably with some good attack. He'll never catch them and they will eventually be dwindled and scared by the constant missle fire and then you cound attack melle and rout them all, plus they will be dog tired from runnng all over the place AND his units will be strewn about rather than in a line. Byz cavalry should do the trick, or just hold off on melee for a while with the Boyars.

[Aelwyn]

Thats basically what I did with the Boyars. They're the best cav archers imo, so I wouldn't really use any other units. Szeks are good, but not as good as Boyars. Byz cav are alright too, still not as good though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Vanya]

Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Feb. 16 2004,14:53)]
Quote[/b] (Vanya @ Feb. 14 2004,10:02)]GAH

Did youz take a looksie at Vanya's replay (assuming it is available by now at org downloads)?

GAH
GAH

Cazbol tried to get Vanyas replay but Cazbol didn't see it in the download section.

GAH
GAH

Maybe upload tool not workie for Vanya...

Vanya emailed it to somebody who requested... Vanya thought it was moderator, but now Vanya have second thoughts...

If youz wants it, list email and Vanya send.

GAH

[kawligia]

Hey Aelwyn, I looked at your replay and you didn't send in your boyars at once. Next time send them all in in a line and let them skirmish back. Or better yet let a bunch of them focus on the general.

[Aelwyn]

when i sent them all in, there was way too much micromanagement, and more units got caught, and quickly routed. this way was better because I could focus on the units closer

[RZST]

thats the thing with an all cav army, micromanagement. specially with hybrids its hard to do it without pausing the game.

and the kid does not like to play on flat open ground, so an all cav army is out of the question.

[Knight_Yellow]

1 holibar general.

4 catapults at val4
7 billmen val 4 weapon 3
4 halberaiders Val 4 weapon 3



position the cats as close to the best mountain hes likely to be on as you can and let him deploy first so you can click ready and get a head start.

Charge the Hals and bills infront of the cats and let them fire at will.


He will either

A. come off the hill and try to get the cats

B. move off it and you can get him as hes manouvaring.


Played the Ai on hard with val 4 weapon 1 armour 1 byz and i got 500 casualties and over 1400 kills.


I was using enlarged unit sizes so i was probably making it even harded.

[kawligia]

You should stop letting him make all the rules. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Cazbol]

I think Russ Mitchell wants to show el Kid that he's capable of winning him in any kind of scenario, so changing the scenario would seem counterproductive.

Knight Yellow aren't halberdiers available only in high and late? Russ Mitchell's challenge is on early to maximize byzantine advantage.

[squippy]

What about javlin men? I'm wondering if a couple of Javs could be used on one flank to skirmish with the two flank-most Byz inf and try to draw them off; then the bulk of the remainder can be used to hold the line wehile a heavy wing punches through.

[Phatose]

How about CFK? I'm sure you can get them in early by dismounting crusader knights.

Hm...actually how about a mix of Spanish Jinettes, Dismounted Santiagos(CFK), and mounted Santiagos or even FKs?

[Ranges]

I used my foot knights to great effect in several battles vs the ai.

You should note, however, that they are only useful when they are present in near equal amounts (ie; when that happens, they squash the bys infantry so badly that the rest of the army arrives only after these ones are dead...).

I described using foot knights in my post above.

Second, Lancers are only avaiable in Late. These games are in early or high.

[Phatose]

No, Lancers are high period. I'm a big spanish player, and I'm 100% sure of that. You sure you're not confusing it with the Gothics, which are late only?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

well... Think again....

In MP, lancers are late only for VI and VI 2.01. In MTW 1.1, it was another story...

Louis,

[Ranges]

Hrmmpphf

I guess it shows that i only installed VI last week........

[Knight_Yellow]

Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Feb. 18 2004,09:35)]I think Russ Mitchell wants to show el Kid that he's capable of winning him in any kind of scenario, so changing the scenario would seem counterproductive.

Knight Yellow aren't halberdiers available only in high and late? Russ Mitchell's challenge is on early to maximize byzantine advantage.
i thought he was playing in early and high?

oh well back to drawing board.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aelwyn]

Quote[/b] (Phatose @ Feb. 18 2004,07:49)]No, Lancers are high period. I'm a big spanish player, and I'm 100% sure of that. You sure you're not confusing it with the Gothics, which are late only?
Yeah he's probably playing VI, where Lancers are only in late, like Louis said. And in MP you can't dismount units IIRC, not sure about LAN games, but I suspect their the same way. And that wouldn't get you CFK anyways, which are dismounted Chivalric Knights, and they only appear in High and Late. As far as finding a unit that will take them on directly in Early, you'll be hard pressed to find it. I haven't tried extremely beefed up Mil Sergs yet, but I don't think they'll do it. Maybe...but you wouldn't be able to buy them in large quantities as they would require weapon and armour upgrades that can make more than 4 units quite expensive. In early though, the best factions imo are Novgorod, Byz, and maybe Germany? You could take 4 beefed up MS, 4 FMAA, 4 Swabian Swords, and maybe 4 cavs or something similar with Germany and avoid the rush tax. Or you could even take a few more of each and match him 16 inf to 16 inf.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Feb. 18 2004,10:34)]i thought he was playing in early and high?
Reading Russ's posts again I can see you are right. My mistake. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Loki]

No need to search any further fellas. The all Turk all infantry Varsity lineup I chose will spank El Kids 16 Byz every time. See earlier post for the details.

http://home.mchsi.com/~mack_rc51/Janes.JPG



The beauty of it is that you are taking his (admittedly screwy) scenario and beating him at his own cheesy game. To add even more attraction, you are doing it with an historically accurate opponent

I've fought and re fought this scenario and unless you commit a very egregious error (like charging your general first and headlong into the fray) you will win every time.

Good Gaming All
Loki

[kawligia]

I think I'm with Loki on that.

[Kraxis]

If that setup can be done, then I think a 12-4 Varangian-Byz inf would win even more easily as Varangians have better stats than JHI (4/5 to 5/3) and both have AP, and more importantly the Varangians are cheaper (and available in early).
And the Byz Inf are cheaper than the Saracens. All in all they should roll over the 16 Byz Inf like nothing, given the success of the JHI army.

[Aelwyn]

At v4, JHI have 9(12) att, and 7(8) def, with 16 morale. Varangians have 8 att 9 def, and 14 morale. They are rather close, but the few times I used Varangians they didn't work. Maybe it was just me. But you're right, the combo of byz inf and varags is better than jhi and saracens. I still say you should take some cavs though, for chasing. to each his own though

[Duke of York]

i wonder what would happen if you chose to fight El Kid, fight fire and fire? 16 v4 Byz inf, against 16 v4 Byz inf...a real grudge match

[Kongamato]

Actually, I think he ought to beat him up for real.

[kawligia]

I just did some custom battles, JHI vs. Byz Inf.

The Byz Inf won every single time. And they cost much, much less.

I also got the same results with JHI vs. VG.

I thought you guys said JHI were really good?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Oh no JHI are far far from good.

They do OK vs cavalry, but no way I'd use them vs a 16 v4 byz infantry army.

In SP campaign, JHI are fine I guess... but in SP custom and MP, they fare rather poorly when compare with straightforward normal infantry.

Louis,

[Kraxis]

Well, naturally JHI would lose to VG, they have worse stats.

But at what level did you send the Byz Inf at the JHI?

[kawligia]

Hard.

According to the YAS units master 2.01, JHI are much better than Byz Inf, and a close match to the VG.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

That has been proven wrong a thousand time on mp battlefield...

Much better than Byz inf and close to Vg for the same amount of money?

Louis,

[Loki]

There is no doubt that the JHI are too expensive for practical MP play.... But El Kid set the rules 99K florin, so...... Use it to your advantage.

The linupe shown above will not lose to 16 V4 Byz inf no way no how

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Well, Loki, the more florin are used, the worst it get for the JHI..

Louis,

[Chaffers]

I rather doubt its possible against a good player on early and a map suited to Byz Inf... V4 swords are terribly cheesy and far too cheap in MP. At V4 every single soldier would have to have killed 16 opponents of equal strength, and yet you get them for ~ 8x the price. Given a 50:50 chance of surviving each opponent 8x really is rediculously cheap.

Hitting morale seems to be your only hope though without gunpowder weapons its pretty difficult. Longbowmen, a Gallowglass + Highland Clansman charge and a couple of cats might do it, but me Cdroms buggered so I can't test it out (I think Lbs are High anyway...). Doubt it though. Only units that compare in size are spears, which suck against swords. Mounted Xbows would be useful, but you can't really control more than three units of them at a time. Even heavy HA like boyars are going to be at a 2.5 : 1 disadvantage. FMAA and CMAA will win 1 : 1, but not 1 : 1.67.

The worst thing is that the 1600 Byz Inf isn't even the best that Byz could put out. I'm sure 4 Vangarian Guards in there would increase the destructive potential and only reduce the numbers by 160... Wait till he realises how much the last few Byz Inf are really costing him nd starts adding a K-tank or two....

[RZST]

Chaffers, exactly what i was thinking, 14 bzy inf and 2 kataph's/vg or something like that.

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] ] Kraxis "But at what level did you send the Byz Inf at the JHI? "


Quote[/b] (kawligia @ Feb. 19 2004,15:38)]Hard.

According to the YAS units master 2.01, JHI are much better than Byz Inf, and a close match to the VG.
According to longjohn2 from CA the AI's combat effectiveness at Hard is increased by 10-15%.

[squippy]

I ran a bunch of tests against the AI on Hard over the weekend. All used the same setup for the ByzInv: all V4 W1 A1 except the general which has W2 A2, leaving only 543 florins.

The general strategy was revealed by the succesful bridge defense; against such numbers, we need to use his numbers against him. What we need is a small group of killing machines, and then to get in the middle of 'em and mix it up, so that the enemies numbers cannot be brought to bear effectively.

For this purpose I recommend Feudal Foot Knights. Strangely, they performed better than Chivalric Foot Knights, possibly due to having less armour: Fatigue is your bane in this fight. I primarily fought defensively from a long hill with the knights drawn up in 3 thin rows... the deep deployment forces the Byzantines to engage to their severe disadvantage man for man; as they try to envelope we send in reinforcements so that we are forming the inside of U-shape with the enemy on the outside... more or less. In fact I found the foot knights quite effective at chopping the enemy to tiny chunks so it was more line-shaped than U-shaped. The cavalry are held in deep reserve until the rout begins or one wing looks like a flank blow will finish it off and roll up that wing; I advise Fuedal knights who can fight well enough if the ByzInf rally - and they do. I also advise giving the FFK's Weapon 2 but no armour to reduce exhaustion.

The longbows are used to inflict casualties in short order and to bribng the enemy on; seeing as ByzInf are both Armoured and have shields, some sort of AP missile is recommended. I also made my general on of the archer units to keep him out of the fighting. I did a couple of other tests with more mixed forces, although the kill ratio of these declines (a setup of FFK's as above can expect to inflict about 2000-3000 casualties). Swabian Swordsmen worked well enough; Chivalric MAA are ok provided they are held as the third line mainly to prevent the FFK's cutting the centre open from being too overwhelmed. Mostly I used 2 cav and 2 archers of one form or another.

The general approach is to fight on as small a frontage as possible, which is achieved by having an essentially columnar formation. The longer the enemy walks to get to you, the better. That, at least, was the defensive strategy - the single best result I achieved was when I drew up 12 FFK's and marched them straight to the enemy centre. This was on the flat, luckily, but was a real massacre because I steadily killed ByzInf units from the centre outwards one by one. I had a much higher ratio on this fight than any of the others, 2500-odd to 260, and the Byz got only a couple of hundred valour points to my 13000+ :)

If only I could get Huscarls and ByzInf in the same battle...

[Chaffers]

Might work against the computer but with a good human player? Also Longbows are only available in High.

Against FFK's the Byz infantry have a 2.5 : 1 advantage, they'll win, very slowly, against a single unit but with huge casualties and barely a bar of energy left. They're also quite a bit pricier, the Byz player could esily drop a few inf for some cav or VG.

A good player could easily just decline to spread his forces across your front, sac units on one side and massacre your Knights when they drop energy bars. If you engage then he flanks, quantity has a quality all of its own afterall. :)

Did a few tests today trying to figure out how many units you would have to buy in order to end up with a complete v4 swords unit, after fighting face to face against the same troop type.

Using CMAAs at v0 I beat v0 CMAAs with 66% losses to get to valour 1. Using valour 1 troops to beat up v0 seemed to be roughly the same to get to v2, so 9 units needed simply to get a single, all v2, unit. Putting v2 CMAAs up against v0 CMAAs got the victory with 25% losses or so, but hardly any of the individual soldiers had made the step up to v3, maybe 10% at most. Quite how v4 swords can be justified for 8x the price of v0 is beyond me.

P.S. Played on Acre so defender had a slight advantage, countered by slight envelopment of my own.

[squippy]

Quote[/b] ] Might work against the computer but with a good human player? Also Longbows are only available in High.

Granted but the specs were Early-High, not early alone.
Nevertheless, it can be done on Early, I would just recommend using the Hungarians for the Bulgarian Brigands and/or Slav Jav's, bot of which I was able to win with albeit at higher casualty rates.


Quote[/b] ] Against FFK's the Byz infantry have a 2.5 : 1 advantage, they'll win, very slowly, against a single unit but with huge casualties and barely a bar of energy left. They're also quite a bit pricier, the Byz player could esily drop a few inf for some cav or VG.

Right, but, I have not deployed in a line - I have deployed in three lines. If I have 4 FFK's in my first line, and the Byz send 4 of theirs in, they have to be in about 10 ranks in each unit, meaning the bulk of their troops are not currently fighting. As I said, local dominance at the individual level. If they send 1 ByzInf against all 4 FFK's, they get cut to ribbons in short order, repeat ad nauseam.

I agree, by the time the fighting is over, at least half the FFK's will be Exhausted or Very Tired, but the third line usually is not. And seeing as your kill rate is likely to be between 5 and 10 to 1, its not you feeling ragged and shaky, its them.


Quote[/b] ] A good player could easily just decline to spread his forces across your front, sac units on one side and massacre your Knights when they drop energy bars. If you engage then he flanks, quantity has a quality all of its own afterall. :)

Then we take the fight to him; if I could put my FFK's in a catapult and shoot them into the middle of the enemy, I would. V4 FFK's have good morale, they can handle being outflanked for a while. If the enemy general spends time collecting his forces on one flank (in fact I saw the AI do this) I finish off the units in contact with my reserve cav and/or redirect the archers to harass the new grouping. But I will agree that this happened predictably with Chivalric knights; where my FFK's usually had 1 bar of energy at the end (its a short fight, really) the CFK's had none and did get overrun. Thats why I advise FFK's with weapon upgrade and no armour upgrade; they are aggressive enough to do the damage needed, and not so hampered by armour that they are overly encumbered.

But I think the central concept here is that we have taken control of the battlefield. The general pattern was very similar - the ByzInf come in and as soon as the fighting starts, start getting pushed back with massive losses. The ground is covered in mounds of Byz bodies; FFK rock. Its not the case that we "get outflanked" so much as we cut the centre open and leave the enemy in two bodies; its THEY who are getting the morale penalties for being seperated while we are in a self-contained unit. And if/when they outflank, we have cav to hit them in the rear.

Lastly, I actually think this would work better against a human player than against the AI, partly becuase the AI was on Hard with accompanying bonuses, and partly because the plan is tactically simple to execute; essentially, only the cavalry needs to be micromanaged, and the FFK's pulled back from following routers. Even the aggressive version, which I favour, only requires a few keystrokes - select all FFK's, Formation 3 Double Line, Advance, done. A hostile player who, as in the case of El Kid, takes the time to sort select two groups and give them marching orders, will be a second or two behind... plus, if he DOES divide into two bodies, I'd happily engage one and inflict as much damage as possible while the other is en route. Even half his army suffers the same problem of being unable to bring the bulk of their strength to bear because they get in each others way. This is why I found Swabian Swordsmen and similar to be less effective - they expanded my frontage and allowed more of the enemy to fight, without really reducing the pressure on the knights in the centre.

Having seen this distinction between FFK's and CFK's, I'm going to keep sopme feudals hanging around in the SP campaign. I also want to perform a test with like half FFK's and half CFK's and see what their kill ratios are.

[Kulgan]

I find his tactics quite dumb, he can win using a stupid combination of overpowerd units

woohooo he has joy in winning his battle, not