Uncontrollable Large scale battles

[myself]

So i assume by the title you've already guessed my level so I ask you all to lend me a hand in something i undoubtably excel at humiliating myself with. Large battles tend to get a little to big for me to handle for now and i think its partly due to my tactics on the battlefield.

The Stratagy i use pre-combat is pretty mainstream interms of preparation; 3-4 archer units, 3-4 spear units, 3-4 swordunits, and 3-4 heavy calvary. The layout on the field is usually as follows; spearunits all at the front in rows of 4-5, archers all behind them in rows of 3-4, swordunits on both flanks of the main group and ready circle around anything attacking the spears, and the calvary on both flanks of the maingroup but a little furthur out to rideout and charge from the rear. So it looks good and feels like i'm in the movie braveheart with all my shiny guys lined up like a chorus line, but it soon decipates in to a total massacre with me on the recieving end of it. The attackers charge usually at my calvary and when i try to use my swordsmen to flank the attackers the rest of the army has flanked my spears and are chopping down my ranged units. Shocked by the onslaught i desperatly go on a clicking fit and 9 out of 10 times my calvary is horsemeat, my spearmen rout, my swordsmen are no longer, and half the missiles fired are friendly fire before they too run away and get run down. yeah.. sounds awesome doesn't it. I rock.

So... anyone out there with any suggestions? maybe a step by step direction from a veteran battlefield tactician..?
sometimes i wish there was a rotate options where you select your spearmen and archers behind them and just rotate them to face the attackers trying to flank you. I guess it still wouldn't make too much difference in my case as i seem to be destined for a slaugther in any situation.

thanks in advance and please keep you laughters to a minimum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Ludens]

I don't know whether this observation is correct, but it seems to me you let the enemy decide the battle. You should be more aggressive. Take the initiative, and hit them with it.

You are going to suffer casualties in any case, so don't feel bad about sacrificing some cavalry or perhaps even knights in a unsupported suicide attack at their rear. This will trow their lines in confusion as they try to stop the cavalry from slaughtering their archers, and then you can attack.

[Oberstein]

I had a similar problem until recently. Here's the method I used - hope it helps for you. Firstly, make sure you have highly maneuverable anti-cavalry cavalry of your own guarding both flanks. When you see any enemy cavalry moving towards you, move your counter-cavalry out. Charge them if necessary. Even if it means you lose your cavalry, they will at the very least delay and weaken the enemy cavalry to the extent that you have a fair shot at breaking through their main line of battle with your infantry. You did remember to take your vicious infantry along, right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I'm assuming you already use the hotkeys to better control your army - if not, check out Frogbeastegg's marvellous beginner's page in the Main Hall. A way of maintaining crude control over a line of battle that works for me is to line everyone up with spearmen in the middle, killer infantry on the flanks, and cavalry flankingthem, then Ctrl+a to select everyone, ctrl+right click to point them in the direction of the opposition, and ctrl+left click somewhere just in front of the enemy. If it looks like they're going to charge you en masse, then double click the space behind them (I know it's a rather disregarded way of charging, but my computer isn't going to hold it against me and I don't have enough confidence for MP yet ^^) and voila your army will roar forward like extras from an epic.

If you later find yourself attacking an enemy from an angle - say you catch them side on - try to split your army into two groups, with the split right down the middle, and envelop your enemies in a 'V'.

Maneuvers really are so important in this game....

[Thoros of Myr]

It sounds like you have the basics, I think you just need a bit more battle experiance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
As others have said learn the hotkeys also make sure you use the puase key (p) during the general advance of your army so you can see how they are coming together. The advantage the CPU has is it can issue multiple commands simultaniously so it's easier for it to handle large, unruly formations. When you get better you can eventually handle complex battles with minimal puases and mouse clicks, which also makes them more enjoyable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[lancer63]

If attacking I prefer the 'scorpion' formation as a conventional charging formation. If you don't have mounted archers/bows, try and deploy your heavy cav. on the wings, and use the medium, or even better, light cav. to circle around the enemy and surprise their artillery or ranged units left behind. The AI hates to be attacked from behind, who doesn't? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif , and she places priority there, throwing innitiative to the wind.

If defending I look for higher ground or a forest or both, don't deploy your cav. so far from your foot that they can't support each other, or so close together that they get in the way. Set your spears to 'hold formation' and 'hold ground' but don't make spear formations in a straight line. Have the units at the ends of the formations face obliquely outwards. That formation upsets the AI's plans somehow and slows their charge.
Another important and often overlooked aspect is the morale and valor your general shares with his troops via his v&vs. Be very careful to pick gluttons, sloths or cowards as your commanders even if they are multistar generals. I rather have a no star 'brave beyond belief' commander than a 5 star 'good runner'.
Hope this helps. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[myself]

I was actually thinking of using my ranged as fodders. Sort of make a U shape with the ranged units at the back and the melee units all on the side. I will entice the enemy to attack my archers by showering them with pointed sticks, and just as they reach them i shall withdrawl them and use my melee units to charge from both sides to destroy and obliterate all who oppose me like a cat on a catnip

you see these are the kind of tactics i end up thinking of.. the ones that might work if you were playing against a 4 year old.. and i think Ludens had it right, i am more defense oriented and not so much in the offense. maybe i should just make an entire army consisting of fully upgraded swords men and charge everything in site right from the start. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Oberstein]

Well, the 'wall of men-at-arms' strategy can sometimes be quite good..don't look down on it ^^. So long as you support it with good auxiliary troops such as light or medium cavalry to harass the enemy, you can keep them busy until your butchers get in range.

[Easthaven]

I'm a newb too but I think I'm alright, I win most of my battles. So here's my two cents.

The main thing is adapting to every situation, whether it terrain, enemy army composition, or a battle in progress. When I'm attacking I usually base my army composition on the enemy army composition, for example if they have quite a few spearmen and not as much cavalry and load up on swordsmen and cavalry, if they have more cavalry than foot troops then I load up on cavalry and spearmen, but mainly cavalry to counter theirs.

As for formation, I basicly do what you do, spearmen in the center, swordsmen flanking them, and cavalry flanking them. But I also keep my General's cavalry unit and sometimes one more cavalry unit (usually heavy cav) behind the main line as reserve to hit any trouble spots in the line. I Also usually have another swordsmen unit or elite infantry unit of somekind in reserve as well. I usually have two cav units on each flank, two light for rear attack and two heavy for frontal charges or flank attacks. Have a basic plan once you see your enemy and the way their acting and then look for any opportunities that arise, such as the enemy general exposing himself or a sole impetous unit getting separated from their comrades, in which case you move to isolate and destroy or rout as fast as possible with your cav's attacking from more than one side. Then you get back in formation and carry on with your plan.

If you find yourself in a crisis, like numerous foot units getting their butts kicked, line about to break...just pick a section of the line you can salvage and concentrate your cavalry on flanking the enemy there then regroup your troops, strengthen your line, and hopefully have enough time to salvage the other fellas from oblivion. It was Frederick the Great who said something like, If you defend everything, you defend nothing. Which relates to the situation, you try to save your entire army from rout you will not be able to save any of it. Also, try to concentrate your forces on a portion of the enemy army, while merely keeping the other enemy troopers busy, thereby isolating and technically outnumbering the enemy in one portion of the field, then you can move on to the next. Focus, is the key I think.

Don't use cav in forests or charge a sole cav unit against a formation of spear unless you got another one sneaking up from behind. Don't worry about casualties so much. I usually get all worried when I see a cav unit practically get annihilated to its last man because of a mistake I made of striking at a soft spot (or what was a soft spot at the time), but at the end I find that I might have lost two or three full cav units totalling some 200 or so deaths but then I look over to the enemy's toll of 2000 and I don't feel as bad.

As for defense, a hill or forest like someone said earlier. Hopefully a forest on a hill. Mainly spear and swordsmen with two or three good archer units, and two or three cav units for hitting those trouble spots.

Adaptation is the main dealio. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[PrinceBrobex]

But what's the best way to handle defending a forested hill, especially if that's the only high ground available? Archers in front?

good stuff above, quite useful.

[Easthaven]

Well see, if I'm on the defense I'll do either two things: 1. hunker down on the a hill or forest and let the enemy come to me, or 2. I attack. Choosing one of these depends on two things: 1. how much does the enemy outnumber me, and 2. their army composition compared to mine.

Anyways, I'll tell you what I do when I'm being attacked by greater numbers (by the way I must say I am also a newb so take my advice with a grain of salt). If I've positioned myself on a forested hill I'll usually screw the archers because I don't think they can shoot very well through the trees, besides the enemy archers won't be able to hit you very well either through the trees AND uphill. Anyways, my army is usually made up of mostly spearmen and swordsmen, with a couple heavy cav and probably 2 light cavs. I'll position my spearmen in a sort of U shape on the hill facing the enemy, and sometimes put a small gap in between units with a wedged swordsmen unit ready to charge through it if needbe. Or sometimes I'll have swordsmen making up the line because cavalry can't do crap in the forest, and so that leaves enemy spearmen and swordsmen which your swordsmen can deal with both effectively. I'll also have the General and a couple of reserve heavy infantry of some kind to either plug up holes in the lines or create a makeshift rear line if the enemy feels like circling me. All you have to do is hold your line until the timer runs out or the enemy runs away. In certain points you can use a nearby idle swordsmen unit to wheel around and attack an enemy flank nearby but don't let them leave the viscinity of their designated area. When an enemy unit routs, halt your men and keep them in formation. Use the cav to chase down the fleeing scoundrels.

Also, I'll use around two cavs to put in a nearby forest to act as an ambush force or emergency reserve or as a special operations force to wait for the enemy general to expose himself so I can unleash these concealed elites on that very significant moral factor.

My humble two cents, I'm sure more veteran players have better strategies. All I can say is this works for me.

Again, adaptation is the key, every situation is different. There is only guidelines on how to use your army fundamentally, don't restrict yourself to any set regulation.

[Lord Rom]

An easy way to control a lot of units is this...
make one long line of infantry(grouped)
make line of archers(grouped)
group left flank cav and group right flank cav

Put archers out front to shoot enemy, when enemy attaks archers bring them behind inf line.

alt-left click entire inf line to engage main enemy line straight ahead. then flank left with cav. then right with other cav. look for flanks of enemy to exploit.

Using one main inf line all at same time together was my first step towards winning consistently.

[Seven.the.Hun]

Hello People...Hmm, some good ideas here...i'm new to the forum here, so its nice to be in the fray...i've played many successful campaigns in shogun, winning with every clan, and i've been successful with 4 different factions in early medieval so far, about to try a 5th, got viking exp., i'm impressed by the additions, and i started making some mods and such now,
as far as battle strategy goes...my advice would be obviously to read the art of war, it has plenty of simple logic solutions to war, making good use of agents to know what is going on around u is the way, u have to know u will win before the battle starts...the only tricky thing is that you cannot exactly perdict the exact moment the AI will invade u with 100%accurracy, but just remember that neither can it perdict your exact agenda...look through crusader unit file and learn about the strengths and weaknesses of each unit before battle, knowing how much of an advantage longbowmen have over the basic archer is a good example, and knowing beforehand is better than finding out after all your men are skewered...preparation is half the battle, the other half is winning it...hope this helps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Yes, use the Pause key at first until you become more familiar with the maneuvers needed. You need to learn how to control your whole army, rotating and moving it. This requires grouping and hotkeys, you can find it all in the threads and guides around here, as suggested.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Oberstein @ Feb. 09 2004,14:44)]Maneuvers really are so important in this game....
It´s the key to winning in my book. No matter what my army consist of I outmanouvre the enemy, putting pressure on his flanks from an angle often using a L-shaped formation. When this strategy is perfected you´ll get more enemy-routing and even whole armies fleeing the field. Nobodys laughing then I can assure you.
Take the time allowed. Most of the time I finish my battles in the last quarter of the clock. Good luck

[gaijinalways]

Yes using the pause key and the grouping buttons helps quite a bit though sometimes it may be your general. Try to get high valor generals to lead big battles.

Terrain makes a big difference, using trees, hills, etc. This may determine what and where you'll stage attacks. This earlier idea of hitting certain sections of the enemy and sometimes sacrificing some units to buy time and worthwhile. You can also sucker the AI's men out of position sometimes. I've had the AI chasing cavalry with foot units which greatly helped me back at the line. If you can get them to run by your missile units )but not too close as the enemy may attack them instead_ then you can take potshots at them as they swing by.

[Anselm]

Try not to worry about engaging to quickly. Yes, you are on a time limit, but if you attack at the right time in the right place, it'll all be over in seconds anyway.

As said before, manouvering is important, butoutmanouvering is even more so.

Don't be afraid to spend a third or even half of the clock time getting yourself into the right position. If you attack the cpu when it is not in a particularly good formation, you'll win nine times out of ten.

Always fight on your terms, not the enemies. Keep the cpu off balance, move your troops aroundand look for weaknesses in the enemy. Often enough the cpu overcompensates for movements you make and if you catch it at the right time, there will be weaknesses to exploit.

Use your light cavalry to spread their formation thin, make them try to encompass your army, and then attack their centre with spear men. Use your sword men to prevent the spearmen being flanked and use your archers to engage any enemies heading for this main fight. Your army in this central engagement should out number and out fight the enemy. Once their army is just about split in two, release your heavy cavalry into the confusion and more than one enemy unit should rout. Once this happens, the cpu usually trys to surround your troops in the centre, at which point you can harass their flanks with your light cavalry who should still be out far and wide. By the time the enemy reaches your main force in large numbers, you should have regrouped and be ready to finish off the remenants.

To do that, I suggest a classic defensive formation, much like the one you described in your first post. As you should outnumber them now, the enemy will struggle to flank you. If they try, use cavalry attacking down hill to drive them off. Remember at this time their morale shouls be quite low, so you could attack en masse to rout the entire army.

Good luck trying, please tell us how you get on.

Anselm

[Somebody Else]

I dunno if this helps - but as the standard form for most armies is to have spears in the middle and cav on the wings, I merely have swordsmen in the centre and spears on the wings, with cav behind to loop around. Usually works quite well. Though, instead of spears, I prefer halberds or somesuch who can then be useful to the rest of the engagement - likewise with the swords. Archers will be in the centre, starting ahead of the rest, and moving behind for cover when the enemy gets too close.

Basicly, I have my archers and cav behind a wall comprised of meat, metal and more metal (heavy inf.)

(N.B. 100th post. Woo hoo.)

[Ludens]

As you notice, nobody is laughing about you. So your problem is indeed the initiative. And thinking up strategies that do not take into account what the enemy will do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .
Your basic strategy seems alright, but you error lies in allowing the enemy to attack where he wishes: at units which are weak against the attacking unit the enemy is using. This is why a lot of people like powerful units like janissary heavy infantry or warrior monks since these particular units give almost any attacker a bad time, regardless of the type of attacker. But if you don't have these units, you need to take the initiative to reverse this situation.

Fighting in a rigid formation* is aesthetically pleasing and seems to be easier to control, but in fact: it is stupid. Only a warrior caste which values thinks like courage and honour above advantage do it. It takes only a reasonably clever opponent to realize that this formation is difficult to reform, so it cannot adapt quickly if the enemy exploits a weakness. In this situation it will become more difficult to control.
(*When using the word formation, I mean the formation of the entire army as opposed to the formation of individual units, unless explicitly stated otherwise.)

The computer uses a rather rigid formation too, but it adapts it to yours. What you need to do is: throw it in disorder. The individual units will become disorganized and can destroyed easily. The best way to disorder a formation is a flank or rear attack, preferably through an ambush (warning: on higher difficulty the AI will notice that your army is not a big as it should be). The AI will panic and try to send units to its rear, disorganizing his formation. Then you charge. If you are lucky, his individual units will not have reformed, giving you an extra advantage. Your armies formation will not be organized either, but you dictate which unit attacks which enemy, so you have the advantage. Actually, I always find this easier to control than the form a line and charge the enemy kind of tactics.
The rear-attackers should be fast, and have good morale. The advantage of using knights is that will stay fighting long and can do serious damage unless the enemy manages to get the right material in place. The disadvantage is the price and the risk of a chain rout should they flee (elite-status ).
The first units (including the rear-attackers) that charge will probably get attacked by something that presents a danger to them (for example polearms or heavy cavalry) and you will most likely not be able to help them because your units get engaged quickly. If it is not possible to help them, don't. They should be though enough to fight on for some time, giving the you the time to destroy the enemies disorganized formation. The enemies' though guys will then either flee at the sight of our superiority or are so outnumbered that they can be destroyed easily.

This is in fact just a long drawn out version of my first post in this thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

Even if I defend, I always keep some cavalry behind to flank the enemy. I never let the enemy dictate the battle, and I always have a trick up my sleeve. Throw your enemy out of formation, and the battle is half won.

The only thing I haven't mentioned is skirmishing. Skirmishing is the best way to throw the enemy out of formation. It is difficult to learn and requires a lot of micromanagement, but if you can learn it, you can truly dictate your enemy to do what you want him to do.

If only I could skirmish, I would really be a good general. Perhaps I should start a campaign with the Egyptians?

[HopAlongBunny]

Try experimenting. Instead of marching forward...march sideways, sort of; almost all my battles (on offence) are directed toward getting the advantage on a flank, and then pushing til something gives.

Say you angle your attack to the left; left flank cav goes further left-right flank cav further right; 2 spears angle left-2spears angle left, but a lil further behind (these guys a trying to keep your rear covered); swords on left go wide left- swords on right come closer to center.

Sounds confusing? You bet As soon as the AI atarts to move everything becomes contingent. You are trying to set up 2 on 1 attacks, if you're lucky flank or rear attacks may be offered...if nothing else, look for ways to tie up enemy units allowing your cav/flankers a chance to kill'em all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Most important...play the game, experiment and have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif Custom battles are great for trying and perfecting new techniques http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[myself]

One of th reasons i always endup waiting for the enemy to get to me first is probably my faulty notion that they will be using up stamina to get to me and i'll have an advatage over them with my fresh troops. From all your posts of taking the battle to the enemy first i gather it doesn't really matter if they are at full 4 bars or 3? Does Stamina only affect their speed or does it also effect their fighting abilities and if so by how much does anyone know?

[lancer63]

I think you can be the best judge on how to beat a 16 BI wall. design custom battles where you are your enemy and the AI is you and see what happens.
Remember. 1 or 2 kind of unit armies are limited to only the advantages of that unit. And that is a big disadvantage.

[Ludens]

Fatigue factors
-2 atk when quite tired
-3 atk, -1 def very tired
-4 atk, -2 def exhausted
-6 atk, -3 def totally exhausted
(From Puzz3D)

Morale
Unit is Very tired: -3
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is Completely Exhausted: -8
(From: New? Read this first)

IIRC +1 attack means a 20% higher chance to kill or rout enemy. +1 defence means a 20% lower chance to be killed or routed by the enemy. Fatigue also causes a morale penalty, and this is the reason why you should rally routers quickly, before they tire themselves more and have an even lower morale. Exhausted troops also cannot run, unless they are routing. Fatigue is calculated on individual basis, but the effects are applied on unit basis.
Fatigue can be recovered. However, fresh units will tire even when standing still. This is non-recoverable fatigue. This happens at a rate dependent on the weather, and will stop at quite tired.
(For most of this information I am indebted to Puzz3D)


Quote[/b] ]my faulty notion that they will be using up stamina to get to me and i'll have an advatage over them with my fresh troops
This is correct, but only up to a point. Good (out-) maneuvering and unit matching (spears vs. cavalry, cavalry vs. swords, swords vs. spears) are usually more important than fatigue. Fatigue is an optional bonus: it won't win you the battle, but it might tip the scales of fortune in your favour.

[myself]

Thanks for the fatigue scale Ludens. This is actually a lot more complicated than i had originally given thought to. Games i'm used to working on only have factors affecting the main character and so many enemies or npc on the screen at the time. Never really thought i'd be controlling an entire army affected by everything from moral to fatige to weapon/armor upgrade, terrain, weather, general's stats, valour,and probably a handful other factors i still havn't found out. kudos to CA.

[the_rydster]

I have not been playing the game for all that long myself but the first thing to be aware of is the terrain I would suggest.

Try and fight downhill if you can. If you cannot fight downhill then fight on level ground. Never fight uphill unless you have to, and you have the quality to do so.

Be aware of woods. Positioning your units in woods can hide them sometimes, will provide good defence against mounted units, and will penalise enemy ranged units. Woods also provide defence against being outflanked and/or attacked from the rear if you are positioned adjacent to them.

I think the AI has real difficulty attacking well defended hill tops. My Viking general was trapped in Ireland recently and had about 400 men initially. To be fair he was a 9 star general and I had some serious Joms Vikings in there, but the Irish armies were huge with reinforcements of 16 units normally.

I would set my men up on a wooded hilltop is a cresent shape with the general in the middle. This seemed to confuse the AI who would practice lots of pointless manouvers in front of my troops, and fail to attack in force. With the hill surrounded and the computer only attacking with a few of those units at a time I was able to hurl my Vikings down the hill and rout them every time. Once the enemy was runninhg I would march them back up the hill and this would happen 6-8 times during the battle. My units were exhausted by the end but I would only loose 10% and the Irish 50%+. After a few battles like this the Irish gave up

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Feb. 10 2004,18:32)]If only I could skirmish, I would really be a good general. Perhaps I should start a campaign with the Egyptians?
Or the Turks, or the Hungarians, or the Russians. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Or just play some custom or MP games. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[vonNichts]

Ludens:

Very interesting info (from Puzz3d) about the effect of attack/defence advantage But the exact interpretation has to be elaborated.

I'm just speculating here: Is this how you understand it?

If my unit and the enemy unit have identical attack and defence, then there is a 50% probability of me killing/routing the enemy, right?

Assume now that my unit has a +1 attack advantage over the enemy unit it is engaging, and that they are on par in defence. Do I now have a 60% probability of winning (50% * 1.20)? What would the probability be with a +2 attack bonus? Maybe the formula is 1 - (1 - 0.20)^advantage * 0.50, so that an advanntage of +2 would give a 68% probability of killing/routing the enemy. And no matter how big the advantage, the probability would never be larger than 100%.

BTW, I too still have great problems with controlling the larger battles. After the initial one or two manuevers before the main clashes, I rarely manage to coordinate anything anymore, merely managing individual units in crises. Should keep a larger reserve, I guess.

I would like to play the battles in slow motion to gain greater control (pausing all the time doesn't feel right), but even at the slowest speed, thing happenn way too fast. Is there any way to slow down the game/computer even more?

[squippy]

I agree with spears on the edge; the centre of my line is mostly comprised of swords and the like, the boys who go in and chop bits off people. I'll sometimes keep spears in reserve to plug the centre in case of cav charges in the middle taking me by surprise. My generals cav unit or a heavy have unit will also be kept in central reserve to deliver the hammer-blow that finally shatters the enemy line. Thats the theory, anyway.

[Ludens]

Welcome to the Org, Von Nichts.

As I said, for most of this information I am indebted to Puzz3D (and some other sources), so you should ask him. I can only try to give you an answer.


Quote[/b] ]If my unit and the enemy unit have identical attack and defence, then there is a 50% probability of me killing/routing the enemy, right?
On the long run, but not with every attack. Each individual soldier makes an attack on an individual enemy every animation cycle.
Chance to kill = 0.019 x (1.2)^(combat factor)
Combat factor = Attack - defence.

IIRC very high or low combat factors will be made less extreme to maintain balance.
(Source: Shogun Academy, but it most likely applies to MTW as well).


Quote[/b] ]BTW, I too still have great problems with controlling the larger battles. After the initial one or two manuevers before the main clashes, I rarely manage to coordinate anything anymore, merely managing individual units in crises. Should keep a larger reserve, I guess.
Do you think real generals could do that? You shouldn't try to micromanage the main line if it is engaged, since it will stay engaged until the battle is resolved. That's why you need a reserve. Just let the main line sort out their own problems. They should be good enough to fight without your direct supervision.


Quote[/b] ]I would like to play the battles in slow motion to gain greater control (pausing all the time doesn't feel right), but even at the slowest speed, thing happenn way too fast. Is there any way to slow down the game/computer even more?
I don't know. I myself used to pause the game very often, but it spoiled the fun. I had to change the pause button to stop myself from doing it: it became a reflex.

BrutalDLX,


Quote[/b] ]Or the Turks, or the Hungarians, or the Russians.
Or just play some custom or MP games.
I've just switched to MTW, and those factions have a 'hard'-difficulty rating. Anyway, I don't consider throwing janissary heavy infantry at your enemies until you see crescent moons dancing in front of you skirmishing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

An MP game is out of the question until I know which name belongs to which unit, but I might do some custom battles this weekend. Thanks for the tip.

[vonNichts]

Quote[/b] ]Chance to kill = 0.019 x (1.2)^(combat factor)

Great, Ludens
That's the kind of formula I like to know about. This is the kind of facts-of-game which give meaning to abstract wordings such as 3 attack. I believe in going down to the atoms of things, rather than just summing up combat points or whatever. (Although the way of the atoms isn't always feasable...)

And as for controlling a battle while it's happening, I am well aware that that's a luxury reserved to the AI (as a fair compensation for its lesser degree of imagination, I suppose).

I just wish that there were an option to lock the camera at ground level, following the physical position of the general w/o option to fly-around (the miniature map is cheating enough). Then there would be REAL chaos in the battles. And one wouldn't really know what happened, until one watch the replay And I bet that many great generals throughout history would give alot to know that much about what really hit them...



Quote[/b] ] Just let the main line sort out their own problems

I admire your ability to delegate the problems. That's proof of real life leadership ability... Only pedants care about more than they have to.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] ]I admire your ability to delegate the problems. That's proof of real life leadership ability... Only pedants care about more than they have to.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You mean that YOU tell every individual soldier exactly what to do? You there, slash at that enemy And slash again And block No Block NO I said block

And this for several thousands of men at the same time
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

My experience tells me that I suffer less casualties if I spent my time worrying about the problems of the skirmishers, flankers and reserves than when I spent time worrying about the problems of the main line. The main line just has to fight and they don't need me telling them to do that. Apart from covering their backs there is little you can do to protect them after the fight starts.
The main line is to hold the battle, the flankers, skirmishers and reserves to turn it.

Of course, since I like to destroy my enemies formation, I sometimes end up with a main line that arrives when the battle is as good as over. Those battles are the most satisfying.

[myself]

Thanks to all your posts, I think i'm finally getting the hang of it. Due to so many posts it was difficult to decide on a definate conclusion but i got the jist of everyones theories and setup some custom battles to practice. Alot of people had some good ideas so it was just a matter of mixing and matching between them to fit my current battlefield crisis. More often than not tho i did find splitting the army 3 the best for me and usually there are no ranged units involved unless i'm defending, and for the purpose of simulating my poor economic state, there were no calvary of anysort. There isnt really a formation anymore but rather the placing of the right unit in the right location. Splitting my army into 3 usually gets the AI to seperate a portion of its enemy to come after one of mine. My armies are usually positioned with 3 cannon fodder units with high men count and high charge bonus, and two groups consisting of 2 spears and 2 swords that flank the middle group. Initially i move out the flanking units a little far to get the ai to seperate a portion. When a few units get diverted to one of my 3 groups, this is the case. There is a PRIMARY enemy formation marching for one of my groups and a SECONDARY enemy formation marching for one of my groups. And when this is the case i do the following:

1. Whichever group the PRIMARY is heading for, I draw it off to the opposite direction of group the SECONDARY is heading for.

2. The group that the SECONDARY is heading for stands pretty much idle til the enemy reaches 3/4 of its way, at the same time i bring the 3rd free group to a position flanking the SECONDARY group.

3. When the SECONDARY enemy reaches 3/4 of the way of their target group, i move this group backwards (in the same direction as the enemy is marching towards), until i have fully maneuvered my 3rd group behind the SECONDARY enemy.

4. When the two groups have pinned the SECONDARY, the 3rd group behind them will charge with swords and the other group infront will charge and hold with spears while their swords are flanking either side.

When the SECONDARY enemy routs i don't chase them to save stamina. If the PRIMARY is still big then i try the same approch again to draw off another portion. If they don't break i just position the 2 groups, 1 flanking them and 1 rearing them while the initial first group keeps leading them into the right space for the other 2 groups to work with. When the PRIMARY is flanked I do the same thing. Spears charge and hold infront of the enemy while swords charge from rear and both flanks.

I use the minimap a lot and pause a lot to gauge my distances and use the terrain elevation to my advantage as much as possible. Found this method to have worked for me 8 out of the 10 times so i'll just be incorporating heavy calvary into the same method when the situation arrives. thanks everyone for their feedback.

[vonNichts]

Quote[/b] ]You mean that YOU tell every individual soldier exactly what to do? You there, slash at that enemy

If I only could, and had the time and the multi tasking ability... I always have to do everything myself to get it right. Or maybe I need to consult dr Phill...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Well, it's all about priorities. Strategic focus I believe managers call it. Taking out the garbage the grassroots say...

Reserve, what's that... The lazy guys?


Quote[/b] ]Of course, since I like to destroy my enemies formation, I sometimes end up with a main line that arrives when the battle is as good as over. Those battles are the most satisfying.

You saddist...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-devil.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] ]You saddist...
The essence of strategy is 1) deciding what you want to happen and 2) doing that yourself and/or getting the enemy to make that happen. If you achieve that, you can enjoy the feeling of a job well done.
Sadism? Well, perhaps, but professional sadism http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . How would win a war if you didn't feel any satisfaction in beating your opponent?


Quote[/b] ]Thanks everyone for their feedback
At your service, Myself. I see you already worked out a nice strategy yourself. No doubt you will get even better with practice.
BTW your name is even more confusing than that of Somebody Else.

[myself]

Thanks ludens. One thing still puzzles me tho... when i'm defending a province and given the option to deploy my armies the way i want, i try and take advantage of hiding in the trees feature. All 4 battles it seemed the computer knows where you are and marches right to my group hiding and leaving alone my bait group in the middle. It could just be chance that they managed to ramdomly select a destination to walk to and ended up being directly to my group but I get the feeling on Expert mode, the computer rarely does anything by random. When starting the battle there is the total number of my forces compared to enemy forces. It is possible that the computer might recognize that i have less visible troops on the battle field when i hide units. My guess is that if there is a significant number of troops missing from view compared to the total number of forces initially, the computer knows you've hidden people somewhere, but could they actually know exactly where you are?

[myself]

Actually now that i think about it, i think i can answer my own question. If in real life i was on the battle field as the general, and i've been informed by my sources that the enemy had 1000 men marching to invade, and i get to the enemy lines and only see 400, I think it would be obvious they have hidden the rest. As to where they hid them, the troops can only move sofar out at any given time so its likely that if there are any forested areas within their circle of deployment range, its probably the case they hid most of their troops in the biggest forested area within that circle... hmmm now that i think about it, I do recall a few battles where if i only see 100 men from an army of 1300, i pretty much know where the rest are; the nearest forested area Ok. so i guess it doesn't seem that unfair the computer knows where i am. I just hope its the hidden vs. visible ratio which determines if the computer knows or not, as it would suck that i would be unable to take advantage of even a small 40 grouped calvary to hide then charge home after having the enemy pass by.

[vonNichts]

Except from the potential strategic advantage of hiding troops to surprise the enemy, there is a annother, more technincal advantage as well.

Even if the enemy can easily guess which of your troops are hidden where, your hidden troops will give the enemy a wapping morale penelty of minus eight (-8) when they charge from their conceiled position

Together with the up to -14 morale penalty of infantry losing the fight to cavalry, your hidden knights might theoretically rout even a completely intact standard infantry unit. Even allowing for some enemy valour, the enemy generals stars and no enemy flanks threatened

This is what the bonus list posted in this forum says, anyway. I haven't taken advantage of it myself yet, since this is new info for me. I think that the intangible morale front of the battles can provide some explanation of why I, at least, seem to loose control over them. I'll try to crunch some morale statistics, and experiment with it on the fields, now that I have found these numbers, and maybe learn to manage that aspect of the game much better.

[I'm pretty new to this game, yet, so take care, I can be mistaken]

[vonNichts]

Damn, I need to improve my English sorry.

[Ludens]

Myself, you are absolutely correct. At higher difficulty, the AI will notice missing units and will scout for them. But it possible to distract him from it.

Have you read the Beginner's Guide? This seems to be one of the few on-line guides to MTW, it tells you all you need to know to start playing without being overwhelmed and it's free. The link is in the stickied topics of the Entrance Hall and the Main hall. There also is a printable version in the download section, but that one isn't updated.

Von Nichts is right too: there is a severe morale penalty for being ambushed, but this penalty does not last forever and only works if the ambusher's go from hidden to attacking. Giving them other orders cancels the morale penalty. But remember that the attacked units will probably be in a large formation while your ambushers are on their own, so morale calculations might turn against you.

Most of the factors in the game are quite obvious, so you should be able to work it out for yourself without resorting to number crunching. To only other thing you need is experience.

[Jammies]

My comments are after playing Normal in SP. (I'll play Hard next game.)

Defending is easy. Find high ground. Defend in a half-moon position around the hill. Shoot 'em as they climb the hill with archers. Then pull the archers back and charge like hell with the spearmen, then flank with infantry/cavalry.

Between absorbing archer fire, being charged, being on lower ground, and then being flanked, the enemy is quick to rout. Pull your troops back, climb up the hill, repeat.

You should outkill the AI by a 4:1 ratio, maybe more.

Attacking is harder. Still, the same principles apply. Seek the higher ground for the attack. Pin them in the middle with spearmen or maybe some very well-armored swordsmen. (Typically, since I am being hit with arrow fire while approaching, I'll charge from a good distance with these spearmen.) Flank 'em with the quick units

Here, the kill ratio might be more like 1:1.

If you're on the attack and the opponent is really tough, then you've got to be patient and draw them out of formation. I've had a lot of success recently with charging a single unit, positioning my other units shortly behind the sacrificial lamb, and then pouncing on the opposition as it pursues my single unit when it routs. (It's the only way I can figure out how to win a bridge battle against a good army.)