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Oberstein
02-10-2004, 18:59
Finally, I have made it all the way from the start of Early to 1205 playing as the HRE in Wes's medmod.

Phew http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

The sprawling, massively disloyal HRE is mostly garrisoned with weak infantry and a few veterans at the start of the game. Before long, expect to be swarmed by your neighbours (the Poles are the least aggressive, the French and Italians the most, with the Aragonese, Hungarians, and English always willing to join an attack but relatively unlikely to start one if you are at peace). Your generals are unexceptional. Your king is a puppet. You want the HRE? You can't HANDLE the HRE

Sigh...way too much like hard work and a lot of luck..I thought my goose was cooked when the English launched a massive offensive through Friesland. But no sooner had their deadly valour 6 general sir 'Strongbow' FitzGilbert taken Franconia than their king died of an illness...intestate Farewell white cliffs I bribed him and retook Franconia - proof that God was on our side ^^.

The one great strength of the HRE is that your royal family is NOT subject to being killed off, as you will subequently pick one of your stronger generals to inherit. This can be useful, if you have high valour assassins knocking about.

Here are a few tips for people who haven't found a much more elegant way of doing the same yet:

1. Early Units
1.1 Spearmen
1.2 Heerban
1.3 Archers
1.4 Knechte
1.5 Dienstleute
1.6 Swabian Swordsmen

2. Diplomacy
3. Politics (or, how to stop the treacherous scum launching a civil war within the first 5 turns)
4. War

1.HRE Units:

1.1
Spearmen
Just your usual, basic spearmen. These lads put you at a disadvantage, as other nations have feudal sergeants whereas you don't. On the other hand, they ARE cheap, and very handy against the French, Poles, and Hungarians. Don't even think of using them against the Italians, or you'll be spaghetti with optional meatballs before you know it.

1.2
Heerban
A sort of unit-what-does, they are a match for most spearmen although their lack of armour makes them die easily and their impetuosity is really inappropriate sometimes.

1.3
Archers
Just your standard archers. Massed, they can just about make a dent in infantry crossing bridges and the like, but unless you can set up a good enfilade (unlikely unless you can really mass troops), unlikely to win a battle on their own.

1.4
Knechte
Very good knights. One for one, they can hold their own against French destrider if they charge, and will demolish East European cavalry and Kataphraktoi (not that one would guess this from their description). The Knechte come in units of 40 and aren't cripplingly expensive, so use quite a lot of them. These nobles will keep your armies from collapsing. It takes a while to develop the infrastructure to produce them in numbers, though.

1.5
Dienstleute
The only light cavalry available to the HRE in Early, these are useful for chasing off archers and running down fleeing troops, as well as harassing your foes from the flanks and rear (they're especially useful against the Italians)

1.6
Swabian Swordsmen
Now you're talking These men are like little tanks in chainmail; armed with massive zweihander, they will reduce infantry to dogmeat quickly, given the chance, and rarely rout. They're also cheap, at 281 florins a pop. Indispensable in defending Lorraine and Burgundy from the depradations of the French and Aragonians. Not quite so useful on the plains of Eastern Europe, but they will carve through woodsmen if the Poles or Hun are foolish enough to use woodsmen-heavy armies.

2. Diplomacy
Largly pointless. Everyone hates you. For half of everyone this is because they think you're occupying their homelands. The others hate you because the rest do, just on general principles. Nations that have been your allies for 20 years will attack you as soon as you move a unit out of the neighbouring provinces, even if you have a large army remaining there (this can lead to amusing results). However, once you've smashed up a couple of enemy armies and captured a couple more provinces, you might get alliance offers coming in. Accept them, so long as you realise they've about as much value as that piece of paper Hitler gave Chamberlain.

3. Politics
As if it weren't enough that all your neighbours hate you, your generals seem to have been culled from the 'great traitors of history' room of Madame Tussauds. It's like your predecessor was thinking 'hm, I'm in trouble here, I need some really reliable men, I know, I'll have Judas hold off the Poles, Iago keeping an eye on the Spaniards and French, and who can deal with the Italians? Ah, Brutus, I knew I could rely on you Now all I need is Quisling to keep the Danes at bay.' Organise your armies into stacks, with high-loyalty generals taking precedence over high-acumen ones. Then marry your daughters off to any slackers.

4.
War
I should admit, I'm not one of the great MTW generals. However as far as the medmod goes, I've got used to a lot of enemy armies, so here goes (it's a testament to Wes that all the enemy armies feel VERY different)

The French:
Will invade with overwhelming numbers of feudal sergeants, urban men-at-arms, and cavalry. Lots of cavalry. Their destriders come in groups of 50, and their mounted sergeants are quick devils. Spearmen and Heerban, with a couple of cavalry, can usually hold them off crossing bridges, but if they catch you in flat land it's very hard to maneuver your way to safety.

The Italians:
Will invade with really overwhelming numbers of infantry. Contadina infantry make bolognese of your spearmen. Pavisiers chop through everything unless hit hard in the flank. The only way to counter Italian armies is with massed Heerban/Swabian swordsmen or with cavalry. However, their Italian Sailor crossbowmen will kill your cavalry pronte unless you flank well, so be careful.

The Poles & Hungarians:
Lumped together because of their similarities, they will invade you with really indiscibably overwhelming amounts of cavalry. So you counter them with spears, right? Wrong. They will back up their cavalry with HUGE numbers of woodsmen who slice through spearmen like so many large double-bladed axes through butter. Which can be messy, especially if the butter drips down the handle. The best way I found of dealing with these eastern bandits was to build up a couple of provinces to produce Dienstleute and use them to hold off the hordes.

The Aragonians:
Will invade Provence with moderately overwhelming numbers of Bellatore knights, Galician bowmen, and Asturian foot. One for one these troops can usually hold yours off, but they lack a good counter to Swabian Swordsmen/Heerban, so try to keep their cavalry off your back.

So how to survive? It all comes down to launching raids against enemy troop-producing provinces whilst you build up decent generals and a couple of strong armies to hold onto what is yours. If you can conquer and hold Poland, Hungary, Pomerania and Croatia, and then garrison them with strong armies, your eastern border will be secure with the minimum of fuss. Lorraine, Burgundy, and Friesland serve a similar purpose in the west. You'll probably want to conquer Italy anyway, so you can likely get away with not garrisoning your southern border so well.

Key provinces the enemy REALLY like to invade:
Austria, Bohemia, Burgundy, Lorraine. Friesland (although this is almost always the English)

Hope this helps someone.

Demequis
02-10-2004, 21:29
Congratulations That is something I've tried no less than 8 times on NORMAL even, without any success
I found your guide very informative (and well written, funny) and it's given me courage to give the HRE another shot

Thanks bud

torsoboy
02-11-2004, 00:11
Good read. You should add Mounted Crossbowmen to your army list (at least for 3.14). They are really good against Pavisiers.

Brutal DLX
02-11-2004, 10:48
I don't play MedMod, but some of the unit names don't really make sense. Knechte for example means thralls, it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles. Heeresbann is also ambiguous, it is a more general term that refers to a whole force or army. Finally, Dienstleute, I suppose they should represent the Ministerials, should be more like stronger cavalry, they are no nobles but besides the feudal knights of that time, they represent more heavy than light cavalry.

torsoboy
02-11-2004, 10:57
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 11 2004,10:48)]Knechte for example means thralls, it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles.
The word knight is derived from the word Knechte, which means thralls, and it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif

Oberstein
02-11-2004, 14:06
@Torsoboy:

Thanks, I'll add mounted crossbowmen to the list once I work out how to use them properly...I'll probably hold off doing an update until Medmod 4 comes out though. I should really be concentrating on my professional exams right now ^^

Glad it helped though.

Brutal DLX
02-12-2004, 09:21
Quote[/b] (torsoboy @ Feb. 11 2004,09:57)]
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 11 2004,10:48)]Knechte for example means thralls, it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles.
The word knight is derived from the word Knechte, which means thralls, and it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif
I don't think that the English term knight is derived from the German word for a thrall, honestly. The German word for knight is Ritter. Thus, rather call them Ritter than Knechte

Ulair
02-12-2004, 17:06
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 12 2004,02:21)]
Quote[/b] (torsoboy @ Feb. 11 2004,09:57)]
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 11 2004,10:48)]Knechte for example means thralls, it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles.
The word knight is derived from the word Knechte, which means thralls, and it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif
I don't think that the English term knight is derived from the German word for a thrall, honestly. The German word for knight is Ritter. Thus, rather call them Ritter than Knechte
Interestingly, dictionary.com gives this definition (from Webster's):

\Knight\, n. [OE. knight, cniht, knight, soldier, As. cniht, cneoht, a boy, youth, attendant, military follower; akin to D. & G. knecht servant; perh. akin to E. kin.]

1. A young servant or follower; a military attendant. [Obs.]

2. (a) In feudal times, a man-at-arms serving on horseback and admitted to a certain military rank with special ceremonies, including an oath to protect the distressed, maintain the right, and live a stainless life. (b) One on whom knighthood, a dignity next below that of baronet, is conferred by the sovereign, entitling him to be addressed as Sir; as, Sir John. [Eng.]

I guess the link originates in the feudal service required of knights to their liege lord.

nick_maxell
02-12-2004, 23:16
Quote[/b] (Ulair @ Feb. 12 2004,10:06)]
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 12 2004,02:21)]
Quote[/b] (torsoboy @ Feb. 11 2004,09:57)]
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 11 2004,10:48)]Knechte for example means thralls, it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles.
The word knight is derived from the word Knechte, which means thralls, and it's kind of strange that they are mounted nobles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif
I don't think that the English term knight is derived from the German word for a thrall, honestly. The German word for knight is Ritter. Thus, rather call them Ritter than Knechte
Interestingly, dictionary.com gives this definition (from Webster's):

\Knight\, n. [OE. knight, cniht, knight, soldier, As. cniht, cneoht, a boy, youth, attendant, military follower; akin to D. & G. knecht servant; perh. akin to E. kin.]

1. A young servant or follower; a military attendant. [Obs.]

2. (a) In feudal times, a man-at-arms serving on horseback and admitted to a certain military rank with special ceremonies, including an oath to protect the distressed, maintain the right, and live a stainless life. (b) One on whom knighthood, a dignity next below that of baronet, is conferred by the sovereign, entitling him to be addressed as Sir; as, Sir John. [Eng.]

I guess the link originates in the feudal service required of knights to their liege lord.
I think they mixed up their translation and used Knechte instead of Knappen - Knecht usually refers to a farmhand whereas Knappe would be an apprentice from a knight (usually the son of another noble given in care to learn knighthood)

nick

Brutal DLX
02-13-2004, 10:16
Possibly, although a Knappe would be a squire or even knave, as in referring to a boy rather than a villain.
Knechte are part of the general entourage of a knight, low servants, so to speak.
While feudal knights are providing their loyal service to the king in exchange for land, they would be quite upset if their king referred to them as thralls. At least the German knights, I don't know about the English ones.~;)

It could well be that the English term evolved from Knechte but has taken on a new meaning, perhaps during the conflict with France, to use a more English word compared to the French chevalier.

nick_maxell
02-14-2004, 00:37
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 13 2004,03:16)]Possibly, although a Knappe would be a squire or even knave, as in referring to a boy rather than a villain.
Knechte are part of the general entourage of a knight, low servants, so to speak.
While feudal knights are providing their loyal service to the king in exchange for land, they would be quite upset if their king referred to them as thralls. At least the German knights, I don't know about the English ones.~;)

It could well be that the English term evolved from Knechte but has taken on a new meaning, perhaps during the conflict with France, to use a more English word compared to the French chevalier.
The description entered was about mounted nobels thats why I thought of squires - It could refer to squires which were not yet knighted and had to show something to get knighthood.

For Knechte - I forgot that there is mentioning of Waffenknechte ie armed Knechte in the 30 years war, but I think that refers to retainers of a nobel and they were rarely mounted.

nick

Aurelian
02-15-2004, 18:09
Hello Oberstein

After reading your post, I was inspired enough to start a new MedMod campaign as the HRE (on 'hardest'). Great fun. Within the first few years, I was invaded by both France and England and managed to lose Lorraine, Saxony and Frisia. The English and French both signed peace treaties, and the English at least have kept to it for a couple of generations (I'm now at about 1140). The French, Italians, Poles and Hungarians all decided to attack a few years later, and things looked pretty grim. Most of my border provinces were under siege, but I managed to keep the core German provinces in Franconia, Swabia and Bavaria clear. I lost a few battles, but my main problem was not being able to replace the losses from the victories I won. The battles against the Italians were particularly tough.

Eventually, I was able to slaughter enough Polish and Hungarian prisoners to keep the pressure off from the east. I also temporarily took, and devastated, Hungary. So, after a generation of warfare, I had lost seven provinces (Burgundy, Provence, Lorraine, Frisia, Saxony, Switzerland and Tyrolia) and gained four (Poland, Pomerania, Silesia and Hungary). The empire is now at peace in the west, but the Poles and Hungarians refuse to surrender even though they've been defanged. I'm currently building up my provinces for the next round of wars, during which I plan to retake my lost territories in the West.

One thing I've noticed about the Germans so far is that the king they start with is universally hated. My internal and external position both improved after my king went down fighting against the French. For some reason, his heir got a lot more support from the nobility.

Anyway, thanks for the initial post

Oberstein
02-15-2004, 20:30
Thanks Aurelian, nice to have the support ^_^

I think it's great fun, too. Currently in 1205 and looking forward to playing around with these high era units. Next stop - taking on the Superpower of Sweden.

Kaboom
02-16-2004, 09:35
I suggest you try a HRE start from High. Less land, bigger & stronger enemies, heerban (viking)/swabian swordman are not so powerful, no spearman encounters, a chance to fight the Mongol...

Well, in the text file I don't see HRE have discount on Archer, but I paid 125 for 60 men.

Kaboom
02-16-2004, 10:05
For the guide of Oberstein, here the units I love to use:

- Knecht: all period medium cavalry. You have discount on them Let Bavaria pump them out
- Teutonic knight (2 turn to build): you have discount too, so build them if you have time (you will not)
- Archer: with 125 florin/unit: cheap to produce and upkeep, use to boost numbers, good to fire in billmen and popolo infantry - Polist militia (they are the same)
- Heerban (low moral Viking): need a church to boost their moral, cheaper for the money than Saxon MAA, value for the money. Too bad you don't have discount on them But Franconia is a nice place to build them
- Swabia Swordmen: buil them fast. These swordmen and Heerban are your main battle line. And you have discount on SSwordmen, too.
- Arbalest: good missile umit.
- Mounted Crossbowmen: shoot them up, tire them down (they are disposable cavalry, put them far at the enemies right from the beginning), and then, when they are routed, pursuit them Prefer at least one unit of these for each of your armies.
- Landneckt Halbaldier: have bonus attack cavalry but your Saxon MAA is better for the money.
- Teutonic spearmen: just to weak,use to boost your numbers and use as arrow fodder.

Other unit don't worth the effort or take too much too long to build. The only other unit I use is Gothic Knight from princes.