View Full Version : Steppe maps
Gah
They're alright. Speed and agility, teamwork are important on the steppes. Especially in a 4v4, this is a fair battle.
ichi
Kongamato
02-11-2004, 06:13
People may hate them but just remember this:
They hate trees more.
They hate hills more.
I null-voted.
i like hilly and tree maps, they give the players a chance to use strategy instead of just using draw out techniques to force a defending or attacking player to attack an undesirable way. oftenly if the army is designed for foot defence it is impossible to win against such a cheap easy noobie tactic (especially if the drawing out army is using artillery).
hilly maps are really really fun on snow or sand, it gives the game more feel then the mechanics of the standard 4vs4 steppe.
thanks dessa
Dionysus9
02-11-2004, 08:45
trees are interesting now and then, but they restrict movement so much...
hills are fun now and then, but between players of equal skill the defender should always win...
steppe maps are fun now and then, but they are a little flat
Personally, I prefer maps with a few trees, a few small hills, and lots of plains for cav a manuever. A map like Carcano or Agincourt is perfect for me.
But I like Steppe maps for tournaments and competitive games because they are fair. There is a LOT more to playing them than just "drawing out" tactics...I wish I could play you sometime and show you some skirmishing tactics...but I guess you probably do not have Viking Invasion? Oh well, maybe I will meet you in Rome.
Brutal DLX
02-11-2004, 11:52
Clear case of missing Gah option.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
02-11-2004, 15:28
I second Brutal DLX.
GAH option required for this poll.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
Steppes; yes I dislike them; lack of feature makes position game less intereting. Also usual steppes are rather small, someone shall create a large steppe just to make it impossible to have one long line of infantry going all across the map in 4v4.
Fairness; what a joke.
When games are hosted with 4 clan vet players on one side and 4 beginners on the other, is a steppe making it fair? Sure, I shall not blame steppe for that; but honestly, I don't think many are interested in fairness at all. If they were, they would pay more attention to team composition.
So for non competitive games, I clearly dismiss them.
Now Bachus make a point for competitive games.
Let's face it, steppes are good for some factions but not for all of them. It also favours a style of play among many other. It is unfair for players who like those factions/playstyle to have to play on a map which put their favorite faction/playstyle at a disadvantage.
Louis,
Good point Louis,
Yes, stepp maps are too little for 4v4, we need some bigger flat maps for 4v4 competitive games
Hi Guys,
They are ok for a 3v3 maximum. But very good for 1v1.
However, if someone could make a massive steppes map, I am sure there will be plenty of takers, idealy for 4v4 games.
For old times sake lets call them Ironing board and/or Green.
Kansuke. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
1dread1lahll
02-11-2004, 17:19
The gullibility of this thread is exceeded only by the person that startded it. The 'I cant win on anything else' sounds soooo much like a hill camper that has never seen the attack side of a map that I dont know weather to laugh on sneer...I suspect dessa has never won on a steep map, further I suspect he wins only when he has a big hill and 'defends'.....learn to win without giving yourself advantages,...if you lack the confidence to win on equill terms, stick to your hills where you have a chance, or just stay off the stepps where you dont; but you have not earned the right to call anyone a 'chump' untill you can beat people who CAN win attacking,. I challenge you dessa, we will do San Ramano and I will defend. It is a map to your liking. A best of seven. After that you may like stepps more.....Now,....where are the moderators that allowed such a post, and such a poll using words such as 'chump'? People have been banned for such have they not?
Rob The Bastard
02-11-2004, 17:53
Around... as usual...
Dessa 14's poll doesn't attack any member in particular... unlike your post, 1dread1lahll.
Quote[/b] (1dread1lahll @ Feb. 11 2004,10:19)]The gullibility of this thread is exceeded only by the person that startded it. The 'I cant win on anything else' sounds soooo much like .....
...Now,....where are the moderators that allowed such a post, and such a poll using words such as 'chump'? People have been banned for such have they not?
That's true Rob.
But I also agree with 1dread1lahll that the poll isn't very objective and worse: 2 out of 3 options contain an insult to people who (like to) play on flat maps.
The second choice means 'I'm indifferent'? That's where I stand, as I like it at times. The Steppemaps have invaluable characteristics.
Nobody has been banned for such things 1dread1lahll.
The poll has been edited. Vote, discuss but vent personal vendettas in PM, chat or e-mail.
Thanks for the idea Kansuke, I'll include such maps with the next pack.
spacecadet
02-11-2004, 21:00
How about the - "im sick of steppe maps but am too lazy to get the new mappacks" option?
ps get the bloody mappacks
Space http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
I think they're alright. I pretty much agree with all the points everyone posted.
Maps aren't my concern really, although i would really like to have bigger maps with goals on them for winning. If you have bigger maps that means more chasing routers untill they reach the redzone, which i hate. I really really wish we only had to chase routers a certain amount of time then they would just vanish to act like they got away.
1dread1lahll
02-11-2004, 22:22
Look up gullibility rob, before u accuse me of slandering people. And plz read the original post again, it clearly calls anyone that hosts a stepp map a chump...plz retract your statment that I am 'attacking' someone.
Rob The Bastard
02-12-2004, 00:21
Chump...
Definition: [n] a person who is gullible and easy to take advantage of
Synonyms: fall guy, fool, gull, mark, mug, patsy, schlemiel, shlemiel, soft touch, sucker
See Also: dupe, victim
Gullibity...
Definition: [n] tendency to believe too readily and therefore to be easily deceived
Synonyms: credulousness
See Also: naiveness, naivete, naivety
1dread1lahll... Dessa14's post did not focus his comment onto any single member, it was a generalisation.... your reply was to focus your comments on Dessa14.
1dread1lahll
02-12-2004, 02:39
A comment pointed to many...me included as i host stepps often, the term noob was also used to describe anyone who played stepps.....gullible would be a fair discription of anyone who trully belived that stepps were for 'chumps', Plz note that I did not use the word 'chump'. Also as I am a computer noob, your pvt message fail me, or rather i failed to retrieve to proprely, thus did not see it.
1dread1lahll
02-12-2004, 02:49
As an addendum, not to go into a map discussion; while steppes lack any visual 'eye candy' and can be very boring (to people that must have pixels), they give no advantages to anyone....I can not imagine anyone wanting to attack maps like San Romano if we had a return of competitive games.
People who recall competitive games from STW will also recall that they were hosted on maps like 'green' or 'Ironing board'.
1dread1lahll
02-12-2004, 03:45
hummmm rob... disregard my confessions of noobieness,... I figured it out, and as final to the final, it is not my intent to slander anyone, just maybe their opinions....(thats just a joke)...
steppe type of map in MTW is more fun than in STW because MTW trees is too thick i think and disrupt formation.. hard to click and move around in forest too.
steppe is fun because its easier to move and direct units around, except in 4v4 where it is really too packed.. hardly any space for flanking.
overall steppe like other maps are all fun.
i didn't insult people who liked steppe maps i just added the little end quotes to make a little bias to the poll.
also oftenly the steppe maps are hosted by chumps who play as a clan and play 4 different people of different launguages and then count it as a great victory, and no i am not a hill camper.
i rather to play attacker on hill maps and try to use the terrain to cloak some units and organise a 3 flank attack on a hill camper. hill campers are cheap as well, playing a hill map requires more skill then playing a flat area where you can see everything.
you have to think rather than sit and arrow people until they have to attack.
thanks dessa
AMP nailed it down what this game needs is some other gameforms instead of the standard attack defend , I dont like steppes much but return to them occasionally specially after meeting hill campers 23 times in a row ...
TGI
PS: I bet anyone 100000 florin that the only love them vote so far is Kanuni http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Sasaki Kojiro
02-12-2004, 20:28
Quote[/b] (tgi01 @ Feb. 12 2004,12:28)]PS: I bet anyone 100000 florin that the only love them vote so far is Kanuni http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
You owe me a million florin... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That was my vote, I've always loved Ironing board.
I agree with SpaceCadet this thread should be titled I hate Steppes but im too lazy to have bothered to notice that there over 20 new flat maps on the latest mappack.
Well im bored of it too playing it nonstop for nearly 2 yrs does that too you, but if the rest of you lazy B*****DS in this community bothered to download the mappack I woulnt have to keep hosting Steppes so far about 20 percent of the community have it.
Stop moaning that Steppes is boring and get it now.
MizuSp00n
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif
dessa14,
There is no getting around clans who want to play as a team. Most people join clans so they can play with known allies, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I do think that clans shouldn't waste a lot of time playing weak teams because they aren't going to get stronger doing that. A newbie jumping into large team game vs an organized team will usually get his head handed to him, and that is usually going to cost his team the battle. It's ok to leave a game before it starts if you feel the sides are too unfair.
I don't like being locked into playing out a battle after it's obviously lost because players considered it unsportsmanlike to conceed. I never heard of such a thing before I started playing this game. It's a waste of my time to play out such a game, but I'm not the only player in the game so I can't leave. This impacts my choice about hosting maps with hills. I don't mind attacking maps which give the defenders an advantage, but I don't want to be locked into a lost game either. I want to move on to a new game. I've hosted maps with hills where top players joined the defense and camped on the hills. That's fine. I hosted it, but I want to be able to quit when that happens. The alternative is to stick with flat maps or nearly flat maps.
I made a map for multiplayer which gives the defenders high ground in the middle, but it was designed and tested to give attackers a chance of winning against an equally skilled team of defenders. In fact, the attackers have won in every game I've played on the map which is about 10 times. I've seen many custom maps where the attackers have to be considerably more skilled than the defenders to have a chance of winning. I'm intend to go through all the custom maps in the mappack and visually determine a set of non-flat maps which give the attackers a reasonable chance of winning in team games, and those are the maps I'll be hosting from now on. These are all very large maps so there is plenty of space to maneuver, and most of them have trees.
Which map is that, Yuuki, in the mappack nomenclature, pls?
Dessa14, you are pointing out that forcing someone to attack on a steppes map is lame? I think its part of the game and shows skill. vs Good player it fails more often then it works. Offcourse when the defending team is weaker and decide to get themselves shot up, its not my problem :D. My archers need the practice. I play my share of hill attacks, and it doesnt bother me that much, except when its a clan that is hosting and selects defense on Poittiers :S. Steppes allows both teams to fight the way they want (without ambushes and so on). If I move my cavalry behind an ally, he will be forced to do the same or suffer the consequences.
Often, when it is clear our enemys are newbies (and they dont quit the instant they rout of the field) I try to teach them a bit. With the 2.01 patch it has become rare that new players hang around when they get routed offcourse.
To get back to the skirmish and arrow units. Wasnt it their historical job to provoke enemy soldiers into attacking?? How can you call that lame? Are you going back in time and tell The english at Agincourt, STOP shooting this isnt fair to the french. They have more knights so they are allowed to win the game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
O, btw you also called Kanuni lame now, cause his goal in live is to make his enemys miserable by shooting them to tiny little bits and pieces http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Also, when I have 3 clanm8s around, I will play with the clanm8's (on the attack side of a steppes map even http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif ) So shoot me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. I could offcourse pass the game, and only invite players I know stand a chance, but ill get comments like, why is this game passed etc etc. AND on top of that I really want to give new players a chance, just dont expect me to have mercy in game. Ill make you play better next time
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Regards Sulla
Orda Khan
02-13-2004, 17:12
Each to their own...
Map choice
Florin choice
Faction choice
Army choice
Game size choice
......Orda
drawing out techniques work for one reason, if you do attack you draw out of formation for your entire team, steppes are too small and thus you have no distance between you and the enemy, if you draw out you ruin your teams strategy, if you don't you won't have enough troops to affect the enemy.
thanks dessa
Dessa14,
That's why you can't play team games like multiple 1v1's, and why coordinated teams (clans) do better than pickup teams. I don't think this issue is confined to steppe maps.
Alioven,
I made the Red Field of Patay map after checking what the historical terrain was like on 18 jun 1429. No doubt I have more trees than is historically accurate, but the editor is limited in what you can do with it. The road from Patay runs through the outskirts of the small farming hamlet of Lignerolles to the left of the attackers, and the outskirts of Coinces to the right. The two ridges on each side of the road are probably a bit higher than they actually were. The deploy zones work out well on this map with the vangard of the pursuing French coming up the old Roman road just cresting a ridge at 2PM and seeing the English incomplete defensive positions near the crossroads, and the main English army on the ridge beyond planning to withdraw up the old Roman road to Janville. Battle of Patay (http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/patay.htm)
t1master
02-16-2004, 22:55
it's a good map, the red field of patay, we had a fun game on it a week or so ago. that wagon map was fun too, if not a little confusing for my troops http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
hellenes
02-17-2004, 18:43
Ive voted for the first choice cause of the artificial enviroment in the "MTW" "online RTS" part...the lack of a MP campaign makes the whole discussion endless and the problem will persist untill the creation of a MP campaign...
Hellenes
Hi Guys,
Volume 2 Map pack is now available, which contains a small, medium and large Steppes map (ie named Green)
Thanks Tosa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif
Lord Rom
02-22-2004, 04:30
I really love steppes maps...right after having to march up a steep hill under a heavy downpour of camped out, english longbows. Its amazing how those boring maps suddenly gain appeal,lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
Antalis::
02-22-2004, 08:34
I´m from Austria and I don´t like Steppe maps very much (must be the Alps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).
I like maps with huge mountains, or large forrests.
The forrests in MTW are much too small.
And I like castlemaps with rivers, so that you have several possibilities to defend, if all works well.
But such maps don´t exist in normal MTW, only in custom maps.
Have you ever tried such a map?
Hello,
Different styles of play and it's your game with your friends. Good thing that there are different kinds of maps together with different ways to host and play it. Room for improvement though.
Aesthetics of a map and game type are a bit in conflict with each other at times. I've made and played about any time of map: plains, hills, swamps. Enjoyed most of them, because of the formidable aestehtics, playability or both. Creating Mountains is a bit of a problem though. It's either too small to be called a Mountain
or too big and hampers playability. Units can walk vertical walls like flies, mountains that make me wonder how one got his army there in the first place, fatigue (the mountain looks real, but the fatigue is not what you'ld expect from a soldier). This creates a very big advantage, one that's not too easy to overcome. There are a few textures that'll exclude parts of the map (grey nogo areas), but that has a few problems too. Limited set of textures, blending problems and AI doing odd things at times (climbing up and getting stuck). fatigue could be turned off, but requires logging off from MP games to adjust.
You could also move the highest mountains out of the playing field: a 3D backdrop. The playing field is a mountain, including modest/larger peaks, valleys, but the real huge ones are in the background. Gives the feel, but without the cons.
MTW maps offer this: the redzone. STW had that too, but it caused some problems, because it was very easy to enter this area. But the redzone is just 2 tiles deep. It's very hard to create a serious mountain on 2 tiles. Especially if you also want to add depth. MTW has another improvement over STW there, 2D backdrops. STW had only one: the sky. That didn't always look good (both on mountain and steppe maps), MTW uses a hill 2D backdrop. Con is that it also does on steppe maps, which doesn't look right either.
It probably doesn't matter much to some players, and it doesn't in many cases, but as creator of maps, but that was long ago http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , and player I would like to have a redzone border of some 10 tiles wide at least, so 3D backdrops can be made. Not by sticking a 2D image at the edges, but by creating a map outside the playing field. Choice of adding different types of 2D backdrops for the far far away horizon would be a good addition to the 3D backdrop.
Maps are 20, 26 and 31 tiles square now. A 50 tiles map and the ability for the mapauthor to set differet areas would be great. You could make a 50*50 tile flat playing map, or a 20*20 tiles one with a 15 tiles wide backdrop all around it, or a 50*40 with a 10 tile wide backdrop at one side (mountains to plains), a 50*50 tiles playing map with a 5*5 redzone core or anything else you like/have to make or play.
Matter of a grid overlay and adjusting the attributes for each (group/line/row) of tiles.
Why is this not in the Dungeon? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif
Hope this isn't entirely off topic.....
Two quick questions:
#1 Which of the standard VI steppe maps is the largest?
#2 If different from your answer to #1, which one in your opinion is the best for 4v4 and why?
TIA
Tosa,
The way the game works now units have to be able to leave the map. So, 15 tile red zones or impassable or very steep scenic terrain might not work out very well unless some other means of taking a unit out of play is implimented.
Knight_Yellow
02-24-2004, 19:20
I would rather attack on a hilly map than play a flat map.
For me the slightly hilly/wooded maps are so much more realistic than flat maps.
I hope theres less steppe maps in RTW.
there only useful for full on league matches wich are only 1% of the total games.
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Feb. 24 2004,12:09)]Tosa,
The way the game works now units have to be able to leave the map. So, 15 tile red zones or impassable or very steep scenic terrain might not work out very well unless some other means of taking a unit out of play is implimented.
Yuuki,
Units are crossing a 1 tile redzone all around the map now, the custom redzone shouldn't change that. But you bring up a good point: what if there's a 15 tile redzone that has a Rugged lay-out? It may take well over an hour to cross that zone to quit the game. I'm not looking forward to such long idle sits. There has to be a different trigger to end games: now it ends when all units are routed 100% off the map (not in 1v1). This should then change into routed off the map or all units within the redzone.
And maybe even that should be possible to change. There are MP players wanting a different thing. You could add yet another property to tiles: if all units are outside a circle or square of tiles in the center, the game's over. I guess this would have to be a more limited thing (well known presets of available arenas) as this is prone to abuse. Maybe even the host could set it. Off, which means that the whole playmap (excl redzone) can be used without penalty and a set of large, medium and small circles for those that prefer the Sumo (doesn't cover) game.
What would be the use of this? Why not just play a smaller map? The main idea is that you have a large world and can do flankings and skirmishing, yet you avoid cornercamping.
Any option for a game that allows you to play it how you like, yet is reasonably clear to the opponent how it should be played is welcome.
Pox
#1 All Steppesinland maps shipped with MTW are Medium sized (please correct me if wrong). Different texturing may make maps look bigger then the other, but that's a deception of the eye. Custom Maps (http://www.mizus.com/Files/k0rgs8gVt/Maps.shtml) MapPack Volume 2 includes Steppemaps of all 3 available sizes: small, medium and large. Listed as (fS)_green, (fM)_green and (fL)_green. Don't forget to grab a copy of volume1. There's also a default pack of the original maps to help you create a fresh map directory.
#2 That depends on what you want. Small maps will allow to make solid lines and will limit flanking. Large maps will make flanking more of an issue. Fatigue will be more important on large maps.
Dionysus9
02-25-2004, 07:39
I like your idea Tosa... we should be able to define the tile in the map editor
Thanks Tosa. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif I have volume 1 and will install volume 2. I have played a few games on the custom maps and it was refreshing to try something new. It will only get better as more people install the maps and host games using them.
7Bear7Scar
03-18-2004, 13:09
Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Feb. 11 2004,01:45)]trees are interesting now and then, but they restrict movement so much...
hills are fun now and then, but between players of equal skill the defender should always win...
steppe maps are fun now and then, but they are a little flat
Personally, I prefer maps with a few trees, a few small hills, and lots of plains for cav a manuever.
Agreed, Agreed, Agreed. Long live the mappacks and praise to the guys/girls who dedicate their time to producing them, making life more interesting for us all.
OI scar... how come you already gotten a female avatar?
7Bear7Scar
04-09-2004, 15:42
I found a cross-dresser avatar, and gave it a shave http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
hmm, I just found it I guess, in the avatar section - scroll down and eventually you get to the Princesses
Why complain about Stepp maps..I really like them 2v2, lot of room for manouvering..
But my favo maps are right now:
4v4 is fl_0 mizuland 9 (small hills every where with some small woods).
Realm004 its great..
Most important is to Have fun and play different maps and factions choices..
Tempi, She has the HF designation, I guess you could too.
Annie
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
04-09-2004, 18:21
That... or clan emissary...
Time to grow hair again Tempiic?
Louis,
tadaaaaaaaaa
pity they dont have ottoman female generals ;)
LittleGrizzly
04-12-2004, 00:57
when my clan hosts a team game of course im going to be on thier side plus even if were playing a much less skilled team it helps us improve our teamwork
but when its some other clan even one im pretty friendly with i try to get on the weaker team as i enjoy the challenge depending on if i have to defend as attackings much more fun
steppe maps i play quite a bit i would estimate about 35% with the rest small to meduim hilly maps
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