Who's better- Lancers or Gothic Knights?

[The_678]

What unit do people think are better?
Gothic Knights have that Armour Piercing mace but are slow and have only 4 charge and only available in Late.
Lancers have 1 better attack, 8 charge and are faster and are buildable in High.

I have yet to play as Spain so I haven't used Lancers yet. But I have used Gothic Knights and love them. They can completley wreck any armoured units like nothing. I mod them into High era though cuz it's not fair that the Spanish get their Lancers in High and Germany doesn't get their Gothic units till Late.

So who do YOU like better?

[ichi]

first, I'd like to congratulate you on including the Gah option. Too many polls lately have neglected this important feature.

You pretty well summed up their differences; I might add that Lancers cost 850 while Gothics run 725.

I prefer Lancers they generally prevail against Chivs of the same valor. That said, my experience is tha equal valor Gothics will beat Lancers due to their armor piercing mace. If only the Gothics weren't as slow as camels or Kataphraktoi.

ichi

[The_678]

Yeah I know that one-on-one Gothic Knights will smash through Lancers, but overall, who's better? I should have mentioned that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Phatose]

Better in campaign or better in MP? They're not even close to being the same thing.

In campaign, well, to be honest I've never had much use for the gothics. Unless you're playing a late period campaign, I'd expect them to simply show up far to late to be a major factor. Much like gunpowder units and pikemen - they're quite nice, but by the time they show up, you're probably already king of the world, or very close. And if you're not...well, I doubt they're gonna change that.

If they were both High units...well, then I'd take the lancers along on offensive, and save the gothics for defense. Lancers get used as typical heavy cavalary, and the gothics would sit by the flanks of a defensive army as anti-cavalary cavalry.


In MP/Custom, I don't have a clue.

[Thoros of Myr]

Gah Gah is better

Lancers are overall better IMHO tho I only play single player. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[SmokWawelski]

Gah I just go for the looks - Lancers
(Seriously though, I vote for Lancers and their charge power).

[Robin Locksly]

Lancers are faster.

[Lacker]

I'm a big fan of the Lancic Knighters.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

[Aelwyn]

Overall Lancers for speed. Did their speed ever get decreased? Last I knew they were as fast as Chivs. This is their advantage imo vs Gothics. Gothics just aren't fast enough for me, so I never use them.

[Goofball]

Lancers, 'cause they look so slick...

[Sjakihata]

Quote[/b] (Goofball @ Feb. 13 2004,19:35)]Lancers, 'cause they look so slick...
hear, hear

[FoundationII]

Greetings,
If you let them fight each other the lancers will win, if you let them fight light infantry, the lancers will do the job faster (charge) and against heavy inf the gothics will take less casualties.

[danielrech]

Quote[/b] (FoundationII @ Feb. 14 2004,10:41)]Greetings,
If you let them fight each other the lancers will win, if you let them fight light infantry, the lancers will do the job faster (charge) and against heavy inf the gothics will take less casualties.
Not really, as The_678 has already said, one on one the Gothic Knights will beat Lancers....

[Eastside Character]

Lancers

[The_678]

It's weird how the polls are so close, yet no one has made any comments about how they like the Gothics. Weird http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Earl of Sandwich]

i'd say the lancers are better for mopping up the floor, whereas the gothic knights are good for their armor-piercing capabilities. Furthermore, the fact that they have a mace sets them apart from other knights.

[Hashishin]

I tried to use Gothtics but they are for me like slugs, therefore unuseable. Too slow.

Therefore of Lancers.

[Pox]

Two different units with different uses. The Gothics, slow and with maces, are primarily a melee horse unit (think medieval mechanized infantry). You want to get this unit right into the thick of things and let it chew up enemy armor. Best use is a head-on charge into armored swords of enemy, or for plugging holes in your inf line from your rear. Lancers make great units for guarding your flanks (defensive cav unit) or for flanking and charging the enemy rear.

What would be really cool would be to have a couple of Gothics in your reserve troop area AND have some Lancers out on the wings. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

But since I must choose one or the other I pick the Lancers because they are faster and more versatile. I play multi-player a lot and speed of movement is critical.

[katank]

I would pick lancers too but gothics do have their uses. The GK you can use like kataphracts and make them slug it out on the main battle line. Not that great for flanking or rear attacks due to poor speed. Gothics in deserts is just funny.
the Gothic knights do dismount into GFK which are more powerful that CFK that lancers and would be better for castle assaults etc.
However, not as if you will ever get the choice between them since one is span/arag and other is HRE/Ita.
generally, GK for defense and lancers for offense like ppl said.

[Lord Rom]

Pox, you and Katank have the right idea. I love the Goths. I use them in one massive battle line that charges into the weak spots in the main battle line, while taking out the enemy cav in one fell swoop They get tired quickly but not before routing my enemies before them Their Teutonic brothers get the flanking duties. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Seven.the.Hun]

i would lean slightly towards the faster lancers...unless i needed to crush some heavily armoured infantry units, armour piercing is great here and there

[The_678]

I wonder how much people opinions would change if the Gothics were the same speed? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Glory]

Lancers are better because their faster with a high charge damage, most units would rout.

[Fanty]

I wonder why peeps in Gothic style armor are slower....

The special thing with Gothic style armor (btw its only called Gothic if its a Made in Germany armor. The similiar Italian styles name was Milanese)
was that it gives the knight in it absolut freedom of movement and that the weight is so balanced on the body that you dont feel it.

It was proven by playing basketball in Gothic armor and win versus non-armored feas.

The Italian version still had movementlimits. It wasnt possible to lift the arms over head. But had better piercing protection.

Gothic Armor German version:
http://www.mackenziesmith.com/Our_Products/Plate_Armor/Complete_Suits/Gothic_Armor/Gothic_Armor_200x.jpg
Usually weared with a Sallet helm. Compare the shape to German WW2 helms.
http://home.messiah.edu/~gdaub/armor/pictures/valentin/sallet.jpg

Italian version of Gothic (there called Milanese)
better piercing protection than the German version but less mobility)
http://www.armourworks.com/images/ChurburgMilanese.jpg
usually weared with a BArbute Helm:
http://www.armourworks.com/images/helms/barbute2.jpg

.....

Another problem with Gothic style armor and this game is... that Gothic style armor wasnt invented during the time this games plays in ;)

It came up around 1480

[Fragony]

They are entirely different units, lancers are anti-infantry and gothics are anti-knights. They are both the cream in their specialty.

[Cheetah]

I am with the Gothics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Head on they can defeat any cavalry with the same valour.

I think they were made to be slow to counter balance their H2H strenght. I mean Gothics with the speed of Lancers would rule the battle field.

Also, I agree with Pox and Fragony. They have different roles.

[octavian]

as far as combat is concerned, check out the Clan Berserk site i dont know what the site address, but they have an awesome unit compare tool, for me, lancers all the way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_charge.gif

[cegman]

Germans are better Spanish should die. I love Gothic knights.

[Clips]

Hmmmm well i find its pretty even yet i usually go with the lancers it depends you see, i find lancers do better against everything compared to gothics apart from when they are put against each other 1 unit vers 1 unit the gothics tend to come out in front i spose because of there gr8 armr and weapon yet if you want to get loads of kills and do more damage to an army preferably without gothics :P go with the lancers they also kill things running faster and are faster i find just dont put them against gothics :P

[VikingHorde]

I go for Lancers, I need speed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Lord Ovaat]

FANTY'S right about the Gothic armour being later. Mostly a sixteenth century item. Tilting armour was often designed after this pattern, with additional protection.

BTW, you guys ever watch Goths try to waddle away from spears? Not pretty. Especially if they're tired.

[Sternness]

I'd personally pick Gothic Knights over Lancers. I personally love playing as the Aragonese, and the Lancers are a big part of that, but Gothics aren't quite like any other troup in the game, and because of that I favour them. Lancers are atleast comparable to pumped-up Chivalric or Crusader knights, and can be used in the same ways. With Gothics, on the other hand, I can pair them up with a unit of spears and pressure my enemy's knights and heavy cavalry, preventing those hard-hitting flank attacks. I dunno, it's just that when I have Gothics guarding my flanks, the rest of my army faces fewer problems, allowing for a cleaner sweep, of sorts.

[nick_maxell]

Quote[/b] (Fanty @ Feb. 22 2004,12:20)]I wonder why peeps in Gothic style armor are slower....

The special thing with Gothic style armor (btw its only called Gothic if its a Made in Germany armor. The similiar Italian styles name was Milanese)
was that it gives the knight in it absolut freedom of movement and that the weight is so balanced on the body that you dont feel it.

It was proven by playing basketball in Gothic armor and win versus non-armored feas.

The Italian version still had movementlimits. It wasnt possible to lift the arms over head. But had better piercing protection.

Gothic Armor German version:
http://www.mackenziesmith.com/Our_Products/Plate_Armor/Complete_Suits/Gothic_Armor/Gothic_Armor_200x.jpg
Usually weared with a Sallet helm. Compare the shape to German WW2 helms.
http://home.messiah.edu/~gdaub/armor/pictures/valentin/sallet.jpg

Italian version of Gothic (there called Milanese)
better piercing protection than the German version but less mobility)
http://www.armourworks.com/images/ChurburgMilanese.jpg
usually weared with a BArbute Helm:
http://www.armourworks.com/images/helms/barbute2.jpg

.....

Another problem with Gothic style armor and this game is... that Gothic style armor wasnt invented during the time this games plays in ;)

It came up around 1480
Great pics

when reading it some point occured to me: what about the horsearmor difference and even more important: the type of horsebreed used - might that be the speed difference? Or were the gothics made slow to balance an anticav cav - if speedy they would kill all other heavy cav.

just my 2 ct

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

nick

[lancer63]

Guess who I vouch for. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

I've had to rescue GKs from death graples with billmen and other anti cav. units. Great for brute force, but if isolated and encircled, which I call the Stalingrad move, they're caned, dead meat like all other slow cav. Lancers have better chances of survivability under the same conditions. Plus they look better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[mbrasher1]

lancers rock. they are available 100 years before.

[katank]

I also like the earlier availability of lancers.

besides, they function better as maneuvering heavy cav that can be hard hitting.

ever tried swiping with GKs? doesn't work nearly as well as a dozen upgraded lancers zipping around knocking down the enemy.

Gothics can definitely be anticav though and like katanks can be spread in front of the line to countercharge enemy heavy cav and thus replace spears where spears may be too low morale or you simply prefer more swordsmen, etc.

[PanzerJaeger]

Hehehe,

lancer vs goth = goth
However
lancer vs anything else = far better than goth would do vs the same units

I tend to take Goths in MP just because they German :D Oh and they got those awesome maces.

[Fanty]

Hmm.

Yeah thwese gothic knights in he game look ugly.
While gothic armor is one of the most attractive armors ever done. :(

It weigths less than armores done in earlier centuries but gives the same protection.

The secret is its shape and ornaments. Wich increase its stiffness and stability. So that you get more protection with less material = less weight.

the riders armor is about 25kg, the horses armor is about 30kg.

these are some more pics of Gothic knights:

http://www.gridclub.com/fact_gadget/images/qa2c04f64.jpg

http://www.arador.com/gallery/15c-3.jpg

http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/_XOOM/stefsap/Lidia%20figurines/German%20Gothic%20Knight/image/2001_1110_132231aa.jpg

Horsebreed? Hmm. German knights allmost exclusively used Frisian horse.
There was a time when a law was made that this horsebreed is for military use only and illegal to export to forreign lands. Even in the 19th century there still was a law that only nobles may own one.

The typical specials are:
- Its hairs and tails are very long
- It has long hair over the hooves.
- This race proved to have very strong nerves, nearly never falls in panic and seems even greedy for dangerous situations.
- It developes a very close connection to its rider. A very high loyality. And its very hard to give it another man. The horse wouldnt accept him. It would fall in depression and suffer very hard.

- It lifts the knees extemely high when moving. Gives the observer the imagination of a marching soldier.

However its not famous for beeing fast. ;)
Its fearlessness, its loyality til dead to its rider and its militaric looking movements may have been the keyreasons for the choise.

Thats one:
http://fcammensen.de/Kinderseite/Pferde/friesen006.jpg

They dont cut them their hairs, because it belongs to their special look....
http://www.friesen.ch/images/foto/bild-7.jpg


There is this story about the Swabian knight in Barbarossas Army, marchng towards the Holy land.
He walked besides his horse, to spare it from his weight. He loved his horse so much. He would have carried it if he could.

Suddenly Turks apreared and shoot arrows on him and the horse. He just ignored em and walked along. The Turks got angry because he just ignores them shooting. What arrogant arsehole is that? He has maybe the nerves of his horse. ;)

They came closer and attacked him with their sabers.
Then finaly he showed an reaction: He drew his sword, took it with both hands and blowed it the first turk on the head.
The sword sliced him right in two pieces and stuck in the horses back.

The other Turks flee in horror.

The Emperor let this man come and ask him for this increadable blow. He asnwered: Bah That wasnt anyting special. At home we call it a swabian blow ;)

Anyone has pictures of these Lancers?

[Bey Osman]

I chose Gothic Knights

[7Bear7Bottom]

I voted Gah

Boyers rule http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Mablung]

I voted Lancers because of their attacking capabilities but GFKs chew up virtually anything with the possible exception of Lancers.

[Impaler]

Goths. They are the best way to crush knights. Lets face it. Lancers are good but there job can be done by other knights. Keep chivalric and goth knights in your army, support them with infantry to cut down spear and pike units and your German army can rule the field. The only problem they have is that they show up in Late period. That is a problem yes but still they are extremely useful.