invisible archers

[Oishi]

I decide to storm a castle. After learning that the besieged had no missile units (just a bunch of peasants and horse-guys), I surrounded the castle (a complex one) with my archers, without breaking down the walls, expecting to see my archers pick them all off with impunity.

Imagine my surprise when I find my troops being devastated by missle fire (and no, not friendly fire, either).

But they didn't have any projectile units

So my question is: is the game bugging out, or if you upgrade your castles to a certain level, does it come with "missile defenses" that will work on their own even if you haven't stocked the castle with projectile troops?

[Kraxis]

All castles have missile defenses.

I suppose you faced a Fort or one of its variants. From the center tower there will be fired a number of arrows at the same intervals as your own archers until you enter the castle. Then the enemy has to kick you out again to get the fire.

In later castles you have to break down the towers to stop the fire.

[Oberstein]

On a related topic, it seems that when I have archers inside a castle, though the text floating over them displays that they are 'aiming' 'firing' etc., there is no animation to show that they are. Not unless they're firing at someone without a wall in the way. Note: this is the defenders.

This would suggest that one is better off defending a fortress with rock-hard melee troops...rather than missile troops. Which surely can't be right?

[scudknight]

To my knowledge archers are useless inside a fortress unless it's the straight shooting variety (crossbowmen) that can attack targets directly in front of them.

[The_Emperor]

Hidden Troops can be targeted by missile fire from castles... Sad but true.

I had a concealed unit of Hashishin placed close to the walls to act as a spotter and the unit was decimated in a short time through incoming missile fire.

Shooting out of a castle is difficult because of the walls, they DO get in the way and your archers will go through the motions but fail to loose their arrows.

Sometimes they can shoot if they have a good line of sight (on a steep hill inside, and possibly with a partly damaged wall which has been reduced by siege engine fire), but all in all archers are very ineffective at shooting out.

The Other thing you can do is wait for the enemy to breach the walls and have your own archers fire into the combat when it comes.


Quote[/b] ]This would suggest that one is better off defending a fortress with rock-hard melee troops...rather than missile troops. Which surely can't be right?

Well it certainly sugguests that you would be better off with a mainly Melee army with fewer archers than a typical field army... So have only one or two archer units, the greater bulk should be infantry, with a unit or two of cavalry (but as Cavalry is double in terms of supplies, you need to be sparing with them as well).

Its a tricky balance. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_duel.gif

[Wishazu]

Is there any way you can set the game so you can select which units will be garrisoned in the castle after a lost battle. Or is that solely up to the AI

[Zone]

Troops can also be taken out by shrapnel, I've had the experience of hashishnin dissapearing but I had a look round and all that was firing were my cannons. It was shards of rock from the walls that was taking them out.

[gaijinalways]

You can also use missile troops to fire through some kinds of gate on the castle. Some of the gates have holes which is great for shooting troops trying to knock the door down. Otherwise, yes, you need a hill inside to make missile troops effective for shooting outside the castle.

[Oishi]

for those of you playing with modded projectile units, it may be of interest to know that the Towers, in terms of stats at least, are classified as longbows.

I've been monkeying around with the projectile stats and this has become evident.

[Kraxis]

Naphta is great for defending gates. Try and have four units of Naphta in a castle and get it under siege. They will laste forever because they are so few, so the AI will attack. Now you have to hope he doesn't bring any big weapons (or hope he places them too close hehe). Anyway when the infantry attacks the gates you can scare them away with the bombs (use Wedge to conserve ammo). That way they will have to walk up to the gate again under fire from the towers. It can be rather fun to see.

[squippy]

One of my glorious defenses of a castle in Georgia against the Horde saw archers used to good effect, as the horde deployed down in the valley from some reason and marched a long way under fire every time. Also, becuase the archers were in the inner baily, on the mound, they could shoot out until the horde got under the walls. But as a general rule, I'd try to defend a fortification with heavy melee infantry. I suspect halberdiers are more useful than normal here as having nowhere to retreat to improves their morale.

[Bob the Insane]

As has been stated the walls of a castle break line of site for missile troops and they can't fire... The reason the castle itself fires is to make up for the fact that you can't man the walls with your troops...

I have always pictured it like this... Any castle comes with it's own troops who man the walls and towers and guard the gates... These guys are basically cowards and will instantly surrender to an attacking army unless there are some of the King's own troops in the provence to enforce their loyalty to the crown... This is why the castle promptly surrenders as soon as the King's troops are defeated...

I think the fact that the castle can attack hidden troops is a bit of a bug, but it is unlikely to be fixed and it is not really a big one...

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (Zone @ Feb. 13 2004,22:51)]Troops can also be taken out by shrapnel, I've had the experience of hashishnin dissapearing but I had a look round and all that was firing were my cannons. It was shards of rock from the walls that was taking them out.
Not possible, must've been something else.

[Kraxis]

Gil, I think he meant that parts of the wall fell down on his troops. And that can certainly kill.

[metatron]

^Indeed... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Ragss]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 24 2004,13:29)]Gil, I think he meant that parts of the wall fell down on his troops. And that can certainly kill.
yes but I am also sure that is not possible. Once, for shits and giggles as your brits say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif , i set up a custom battle against the biggest castles the maps come with. I have 12 cannons of some sort and was tearing the place down ( I eventually took down EVERY peice of the place, keep, towers, walls, everything). Anyways, i purposely, on many occasions, took down a tower when a unit was underneath and watched as a few hundred tons of stone fell DIRECTLY on them but they took zero casualties. It would have been cool if it worked... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Kraxis]

It does work Ragss, I have lost plenty of men to this, when I have forgotten about the walls. Try the same setup with the AI assaulting your castle (with the guns). Then position your troops closely under walls under fire and see how many you lose. It will most likely be somewhere around 30-40% per dropping wall per unit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Servius]

also, I was reading through the projectile_stats file and found that certain missile units, like Longbowmen, have an option that allows them to shoot at a much higher angle in order to get over certain obsticles. I think (though I haven't tried this yet) that this enables those missile units to shoot over castle walls more effectively.

Ah, found it... The variable is called TryHigh, the description is "Can the weapon try a high angle shot if the low angle shot is blocked"

longbows, mountedlongbows?, siege rounds, torches, and arrow_from_model projectile-using units have this option.

I have no idea which unit is referred to with mountedlongbows or arrow_from_model, but it's in there so who knows.

[fruitfly]

When assulting a castle, the walls and towers fire at your troops automatically. I've got a couple of questions about that...

1) Will the outer walls/towers stop firing once enemy troops have entered the castle, or will they continue to fire until the end of the battle?

2) When you're defending and the AI is assulting your castle, is it possible to target the wall/tower fire at particular units, or is that out of your control?

[Sociopsychoactive]

Quote[/b] (fruitfly @ Mar. 01 2004,17:43)]When assulting a castle, the walls and towers fire at your troops automatically. I've got a couple of questions about that...

1) Will the outer walls/towers stop firing once enemy troops have entered the castle, or will they continue to fire until the end of the battle?

2) When you're defending and the AI is assulting your castle, is it possible to target the wall/tower fire at particular units, or is that out of your control?
When assaulting a castle...

If the castle is a keep and curtain wall or higher, then it has different rings of defences. Each ring will stop firing once your units are inside and none of the defenders are in that ring

Only when every defender is dead will they all stop firing, also, if you move your forces from an outer ring into a ring further in, the outer ring SEEMS to be able to fire again. I'm not sure about this one, but I have definately lost troops to tower fire when they were out of range of the inner ring, and I had troops fighting in the inner ring only.

As to defending sieges, No. You can;t target any of your towers. They will all fire automatically, and they are reasonably smart in their firing, I think they have a targetting priority (They always seem to shoot at enemy siege weapons most) but you'd have to ask a modder or look in the stats.