Armor and Weapon Upgrades

[Servius]

I was thinking, usually if I have a province with Iron I tend to build my heavy cavalry there. But Hvy Cav take the longest to get the buildings for, and this time in only increased because of the weaponsmith times too.

So then I just starting building my swordmen there and used my capital to train Hvy Cav. Now I'm thinking maybe I should only build the weapon upgrade buildings and NOT the armor upgrade buildings, and build offensive (sword) units there. I would still build the armor upgrade buildings for defensive units like spears and archers.

Does anyone do this? If so, how well does it work for you? Is there a big disadvantage to not giving certain ofensive units the armor upgrade too?

[lancer63]

I upgrade armor for all units but those intended for desert/arid terrain warfare.
I used to upgrade weapons for sword/axe/spear units and would leave ranged ones out of it; being that the tiny sword didn´t help the performance of misiles. But what about when you can't withdraw a spent archer and need every single unit to face a determined enemy?
Well I understand the weapon upgrade is effective for ranged units in close combat. And if I have enough money for them too, I do it. But melee and shock troops have precedence. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif

[Crazy Duke]

I'm upgrading everything as much as I can do, and it really help on battlefield.

Also unit from other provinces that those upgrades come later, I send to those who have earlier, so my army is well armored and weapon upgrade so my loses are much less than usual.

[gaijinalways]

I try to do both if possible. Money of course is an issue, but it's true that archers with better armor survive longer and with swords fight better

Of course, in the desert armored groups will tire quickly, though I find sometimes they still carry the day if you hit the enemy fast

[Servius]

do the armor upgrades actually affect the fatigue rates of units, or does only their base armor rating affect how fast a unit will tire in the desert?

[The_678]

I'm about 90% postitive that the Armour upgrades affect the fatigue rate as well. Because what the armour upgrades really do is increase the units base armour and the upgrades make the new stats their base stats. Again it's only 90% positive but I'm pretty sure. And I may have worded it weird but the effect is still there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Sociopsychoactive]

I tend to upgrade them both, and for instance love playing the danes thanks to iron in a very early province.

The weapons upgrade does make a huge difference, tho I have not custom battle tested it myself, I have seen a squad with same valour, same armour and same formation go against each other, and the one with only one armour upgrade was victorious by a long shot, and both squads fought on past 50% casualties.

I agree it;s kinda pointless for ranged units, but it is worth having if, like me, you desigante one province to be retraining central, and have it an iron province that you concerntrate on building unit buildings, upgrade buildings and nothing else, except a port of course. For allmost all naval empires it works doing this, and all partial units get the best upgrades, and almost all units can retrain there early on, only when you get to high do you start finding units that can;t retrain yet, and if you build constantly in your retraining province you tend to find the wait isn't so huge after all, as you are not building moral buildings 9no point, it doesn;t effect retrainign units) not building agent buildings, not building the title holder buildings and so-on.

[Phatose]

Well, usually I play as the spanish, so iron isn't so rare a commodity.

However, if I only had one province...I'd probably build up to whatever swordman is the level needed for the current MAA's era, then build in the weapon upgrades. Ideally, 3 provinces would be assigned swordsman duty, for an assembly line type approach. The first builds up to the best swordsman possible, for the valour bonuses, and actually produces the units. The second builds up only to what is needed to retrain the current standard, and builds armor upgrades. The third is the one with iron, and builds to the current standard+weapon upgrades. Train, retrain for armor, retrain for weapons and you've got fully upgraded swords ASAP. And since you can just retrain the units anywhere and keep the bonuses, the slower pace isn't that big of a problem.

[Knight Keimo]

Armour do affect units fatigue rate and upgrades even more, at least on desert. In fact, if an unit have a somekind of armour upgrade, theyr fatigue will go down at just to standing there.

[MuseRulez]

I'm not sure but I think all unit with armour of 5 or more take a penalty in the desert(upgrades included). Can anyone test this? Thanks anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kraxis]

I think it is much lower than that. I think it starts all the way down at Armour 2. And then it works upwards from there. So a unit with Armour 2 isn't affected much, while an armour 3 is felt and armour 4 is anoyingly faster tired. In any case I'm quite certain that Armour 3 units tire much faster than Armour 1.

[Chaffers]

I'm sure it isn't just the desert. Armoured units will tire just by standing there in the desert but heavily armoured units seem to tire far more quickly even in temperate zones.

Personally I avoid adding armour to everything as I find that the fatigue penalties nullify its effect in many cases. Its only the long, difficult battles that really matter in the long run, and these are the very battles where you need stamina and morale in your troops. Those up-armoured CMAAs look great hacking peasants up in short battles but get chewed out when they are exhausted (-6 penalty?).

This seems to be particularly noticeable with heavily armoured and slow troops. Halberds spring to mind, seems as though they arn't fit for battle after merely walking the way across the map to the enemies lines in some cases.

Spears always get lots of armour, as do Pikes and Archers. I'm still not decided on my heavy cav, sometimes they get it and sometimes they don't. Once light cav has gained a few points of valour I tend to up armour them but I don't assume that every troop type is enhanced by +4 armour.

[bunt0025]

I'm sure it isn't just the desert. Armoured units will tire just by standing there in the desert but heavily armoured units seem to tire far more quickly even in temperate zones.

Personally I avoid adding armour to everything as I find that the fatigue penalties nullify its effect in many cases. Its only the long, difficult battles that really matter in the long run, and these are the very battles where you need stamina and morale in your troops.

I thought units had to be moving (even readjusting) or fighting to tire out?

I agree. I only upgrade armour when there isn't much else (worthwhile) to construct... and I ensure that I upgrade to an ODD number of armour... to ensure the enemy won't attain as much AP bonus against me.

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, bunt0025! ~:wave:





I thought units had to be moving (even readjusting) or fighting to tire out?.
Nope, they can indeed get tired just standing still. This is especially the case in desert provinces.





I agree. I only upgrade armour when there isn't much else (worthwhile) to construct... and I ensure that I upgrade to an ODD number of armour... to ensure the enemy won't attain as much AP bonus against me.
For me, whether or not I build armorours really depends on the situation. I generally use a combination of four main factors when determining whether or not to build armour upgrades:


1.) Which faction I'm playing as. (For instance, if I'm playing one of the western European factions, I tend to have lots of heavily-armoured troops. However, if I'm playing one of the Muslim factions, then not so much.)

2.) Which province it is. (As a primary example, I almost never build armourers in desert provinces.)

3.) What unit type(s) I generally recruit in that province. (Example: If I have a province dedicated to training mostly light cavalry, then I probably won't build any armourers. If it's one of my provinces dedicated to training knights or heavy infantry, however, then I generally do.)

4.) If the province has a specific unit bonus, and whether I'd deem it appropriate for that unit to have armour upgrades. (For example, I usually don't build armourers in Scotland, as I feel the primary value of Highland Clansmen -- who receive a +1 training bonus there -- is their strong charge/attack stats, not their defensive capabilities.)

[caravel]

I always modded out armour upgrades, but I admit that they add "flavour" - it's a personal thing of course. IMO they worked ok in Shogun because the AI would often be ahead of you in terms of tech/upgrades, it was a lot simpler in terms of unit roster, types of terrain and types of unit and pretty much any unit in Shogun benefited from them as all units were either elite or spearmen. In Medieval however they weren't too well balanced and the AI would never use them on the right units/in the right provinces - e.g. heavily armoured vanilla archers or peasants aren't really that useful - and the AI is oblivious to the "armour in the desert" problem.

[Gilrandir]

Nope, they can indeed get tired just standing still. This is especially the case in desert provinces.

And especially the case in winter. Once on a frosty day I had a unit of chivalric knights waiting for their turn to join the battle. When the turn came their charge was just creeping along as they were reported to be very tired even before they reached the enemy's line.