Why does everyone hate the Byzantines?

[kawligia]

I just started playing with them recently. I'm really starting to like their units, but no one will ally with you even at the very beginning of the game and even though I have high influence and I don't have a lot of land, so they shouldn't be jealous.

What gives?

There is always a time in this game where the whole world hates you and wants to fight, but with them it happens almost immediately. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Thoros of Myr]

Becuase as teh Byz in early/high you have really good units and you happen to hold a very nice piece of land called Constantinople... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_surrender.gif

[RZST]

maybe theyre scared of you coz your too big(?)
meh, i dont complain, theyre all heathens anyways, the whole lot of em...heathens O.o;

byz on early are sooooo goddamn easy its not even funny, the byzinf kicks so much ass and the katap's. whoa.

[Jeff]

Yeah in my games everyone is always at war with the Byz, including myself. For a while they seem to dominate, but then just kinda die out. In fact the only time I have ever really seen the Byz dominate the entire game was when I was using them. Other than that they always seem to get trounced by the time the High period starts. That's just my experience with them. They never seem to be allied with anyone for too long and if they are they get back stabbed pretty quick.

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Jeff @ Feb. 14 2004,22:32)]Yeah in my games everyone is always at war with the Byz, including myself. For a while they seem to dominate, but then just kinda die out. In fact the only time I have ever really seen the Byz dominate the entire game was when I was using them. Other than that they always seem to get trounced by the time the High period starts. That's just my experience with them. They never seem to be allied with anyone for too long and if they are they get back stabbed pretty quick.
I've seen the Byzantines as one of the main powers several times. They have been my main competitor for domination in some games. They have even wiped out my entire fleet once http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif (good luck taking out three full stacks at the same time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif )

[Phatose]

You know, the Byz usually end up pretty powerful for a while in my games. Since their main threats are muslim - and since my main goal for the first part of the game is to eradicate all islamic cultures - they end up doing ok. Usually they're the ones who take the brunt of the horde assault.

[Nomad]

Quote[/b] (Phatose @ Feb. 15 2004,02:01)]You know, the Byz usually end up pretty powerful for a while in my games. Since their main threats are muslim - and since my main goal for the first part of the game is to eradicate all islamic cultures - they end up doing ok. Usually they're the ones who take the brunt of the horde assault.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif [/QUOTE]

[Nomad]

Guess,
I've not sussed out the quote thing yet only meant to lift one line there. That being the one about the eradications of all Muslims...............hope this prejudice is contained to the virtual world.
Nomad.

[Phatose]

*chuckle*

No, I'm not planning on having my hordes of lancers over-run the middle east in real life. Hating real muslims would probably involve knowing real muslims, and I don't so I don't.

In the game though, it's not only my catholic duty, but a very wise tactical move.

[Aelwyn]

I usually have a lot of allies as the Byz. But generally it does seem like no one wants to ally with you, the more powerful you get. It just seems like the game trying to balance you out with everyone else, stop you from getting power...like the inevitable mass rebellion you'll get once you get close to winning.

[kawligia]

Its not because I'm too powerful, because I'm playing with medmod which means I only have 4 provences at the start.

Actually my main threats are not Muslim. They are the ONLY ones who ally with me. Its the Catholics that are a pain...especially those crusades. Now when I play the first thing I do is build ships and take out the pope.

[Chaffers]

Its always the Catholic factions who seem to stab you in the back, the muslims tend to look to make war with you straight away. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I ended up refusing all alliances as Byz, the only people I could trust (same religion) were the Novs and I wanted their lands. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[econ21]

In game terms, I find Catholic nations to be the real enemy of Catholics. They have potentially better troops and are usually closer. Plus they can be a pain to deal with because of the Pope and their crusades. I also like the Muslims to deal with the Byzantines with their scarey earlier period units. However, this is all powergaming and I guess should be resisted when role-playing.

[Random Ronin]

Byzantines are in a terrible decline by the time this game come about. They suffered a horrible defeat in Turkey, losing a lot of their best lands to the Turks in 1071, their armies are only a shadow of their former glory, and that is why they are so odd, for they really do become less able to deal with things by the end. Remember, the game ends in the year that Constantinople fell to the Turks, and there is good reason for that...

The reason that people dislike Byzantines is that Byzantines hold the gate. Europeans hate the fact they have to go through Byzantines to get at the eastern trade-goods, the Arabs hate having to go through Byzantines to sell their wares to Europe, and regardless of whatever anyone did, those Byzantines never would just give up, even with their capitol city besieged. Their Navy simply was unbeatable, which meant they had the power to starve everyone at will. Even in a weakened state, the Byzantines still had a power far out of proportion to their actual mass for the 400 years before its fall. IF they had wanted, they could have conquered the world in the 12th century, but they were really a spent force, looking at the relfected glory of its days as the real dominant power.

[Aelwyn]

They are one of the few nations with 40 men general units. (41 for the king) I wiped them out recently, and I mean only minutes ago. They had about 3 full kata units, 1 king, 2 heirs. They had about 2 other cav units, a few inf and some missles. I chose to move towards the best ground, so eventhough on defense...they chose to attack me. My Billmen just tore through their cavs. I had Gallowglasses and some FMAA protecting the flanks of the Bills, so no other units could get to them. There was really only 1 unit doing the work, and that unit only lost 8 men. Honestly, the rest were just in the process of flanking when that 1 unit of Billmen had already torn completely through 2 cav units, and was routing the third, when all the units decided to run. I have never seen any units cut through another like this 1 unit did. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif It was a v2 Bill at the start, and a v4 Bill at the end.

[Nowake]

Byzantines are in a terrible decline by the time this game come about. They suffered a horrible defeat in Turkey, losing a lot of their best lands to the Turks in 1071, their armies are only a shadow of their former glory, and that is why they are so odd, for they really do become less able to deal with things by the end. Remember, the game ends in the year that Constantinople fell to the Turks, and there is good reason for that...


Manzikert http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


As to why everyboady hates them. I just wonder .. who? I never had problems with alliances or anything else. I just wipe out the turks in the first 4-5 turns of any era and after that I build up for Bulgaria, Serbia, Georgia and Egypt. Never had any problems, even on Late/Expert.

[Praylak]

Yeah it seems to depend allot on various things. I've seen them pushing up the Balklans really fast in some games. Almost as if the Turks were pushing them out from the south and the Byz were running north. Other games I've seen them defend well, and then counterback to wipe the Turks out in record time.

Unlike some other factions, all they have to do really is defend and develop until they can form thier mighty armies. If they do this (either as AI or player) they become a tough force for anyone to take on. Riding north to take no mans lands may be sound strategy, but not at the cost of weakening the borders with the Islamic nieghbours. They already begin with potentially rich lands.

EDIT: Note this observation was made with Early starting period conditions.

[Chaffers]

Late / Expert / Byz is pretty much the only faction I've had difficulty with. I assume you got your trade working if you found it easy, gittish Catholics kept sinking my l'il boats every few turns..

Be interested to hear what strategy you used to beat it...

[kawligia]

The only game I've ever played in the late period was the Swiss. I was doing damn good too but I ran out of time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

I still survived the games I stuck it out it, I gave up on the rest. Here's a typical Byz game: I spend only a few turns building more units, then I ally (finally) with the Hungarians only to be backstabbed by them as soon as I attack the Turks. Shortly after that the Egyptians start to sink my ships and I get two crusades launched at the Eternal city, one French, one Sicilian (or Aragonese) who were previously my allies.

[Bob the Insane]

In this game I find the which even faction is doing best is normally the most disliked, and that goes double for the players faction....


The number of times my realatively peaceful expansion has generated hostility.. Try the following, ally with everyone... Don't directly attack anyone, only defend yourself... For expansion look out of rebel lands to conquror or bribe... If you have to chose between alliance chose those whom border your lands over those you do not...

See how long until everyone is at war with you...

[kawligia]

That IS exactly what I do. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[The Tuffen]

In my last english campaign the Byz were the only major power left by the start of the high period, I'd reduced spain to 1 provence, the french had been eliminated, the germans were surrounded the pope was also confined to one provence and the muslim factions had been wiped out thanks to a few crusades from me. I was just waiting for the horde to show then the byz - the only faction I wasn't at war with (and never had) attacked me by surprise. They took out half my fleet in the east med http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif. Admittidly it only took me a few turns to replace my ships but they hampered me bringing in reinforcements for my troops in Khazar. I then nearly eliminated them for the attack and left them on their islands.