Final version of beta map

[WesW]

Below is the final version of the strategic map, which will be included in the Medmod version four beta. I seem to be getting stronger after my surgery, so perhaps things will starting moving again.
I am sure that various people will have quibbles with one thing or another, and this version is still open to discussion, but for now nothing important can be done with mod development until we have some kind of map to work with.
I'll leave it to you guys to go over it and hear your thoughts. You'll notice that there are some changes that have only been mentioned once or twice, and a few that have not been discussed before at all, but I think that everyone is going to love it once I have time to go over everything.

I wish I knew what Berengario's status is at the moment, since I would really like to turn the rest of this over to him, or someone else who knows how to do it if Berengario doesn't show up soon.
I want to do the maptex myself, but it would be a huge load off my hands if someone would do all the campaign, names, and other text work to make this map work in the game.
You would need to start with original, unaltered files, and get it all to work on the un-modded game. I would then post it all as an alternate generic map for players to try out, and get to work integrating it into the Medmod.


http://wes.apolyton.net/LukMap.gif

So, here is the final list of changes:

Removed (8): Finland, Brandenburg, Switzerland, Ryazan, Pereyaslavl, Malta, Rhodes and Sinai.

Added (16):
Murcia, New Castile
Poitou, Auverge, Dauphine,
Savoy, Verona, Calabria,
Carniola, Pannonia, Epirus, Macedonia,
Mazovia, Ruthenia, Levedia and Gotland

This adds up to a net increase of 8, which is what we have to work with. In addition,

Re-named (8):
Naples to Apulia?
Greece to Achaea?
Castile to Old Castile
Toulouse to Languedoc
Genoa to Liguria
Milan to Lombardy
Carpathia to Transylvania
Hungary to TransDanubia

Note: I am using Africa's colors for the region of Finland as well, since it will be treated as "uninhabitable".
I have not tested to see if two of the colors unavailable for normal provinces could be substituted for Africa's present colors. If so, it would then give us one last province to add to the game. I would like to keep this as an ace-in-the-hole possibility until we have the beta released and playtesting conducted.

[Ellesthyan]

Looks very good Wes, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif up It has a lot of interesting positions (Im pointing out the Polish kingdom for example), which will surely give the game a whole new experience. And besides, if something does'nt work out right, it can always be changed.

Let's hope you can get this map done without troubles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-hat.gif

EDIT: Ack, sily typo...

[The Beef Baron]

absolutley amazing wes. gald to see you are getting better.
anxiously awaiting the release of the next version. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif TBB

[The Witch-King]

Looks fantastic, too bad there weren't enough free province slots to divide Syria in two, but one can't have everything. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

EDIT: Oh, shouldn't Lithuania have sea access?

[Ellesthyan]

Witch King, I've checked some historical atlasses, and I think its save to say that Lithuania should not have access to the sea. The solution Wes has given is shown on every map I could lay my hand on, so I guess it could be a correct one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Eastside Character]

I was trying to find something i dont like about this map, but ... hmm seems like everything's great. There is one thing which makes me wonder tho: Denmark borders with 3 see regions, so it can be invaded even from the Baltic See. Why so?

Regards,
EC

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ Feb. 15 2004,17:51)]Witch King, I've checked some historical atlasses, and I think its save to say that Lithuania should not have access to the sea. The solution Wes has given is shown on every map I could lay my hand on, so I guess it could be a correct one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
You're right Ellesthyan. Lithuania shouldnt have coast.

[MiniKiller]

Damn WesW I give u all my respects.

U come back and immedialty give us an update :)

So glad to hear ur feeling better

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hi, WesW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I'm glad you're feeling better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

But I have 2 questions:

Why isn't Portugal divided in 2 provinces (Portucale - North of the river Tagus and Al-Gharb - South of the river Tagus)??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif

And why is France all that divided?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-huh.gif

[WesW]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Feb. 15 2004,18:17)]But I have 2 questions:

Why isn't Portugal divided in 2 provinces (Portucale - North of the river Tagus and Al-Gharb - South of the river Tagus)

And why is France all that divided?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-huh.gif
Well, I went over the Portugal question back a few weeks ago, but to surmise- it wouldn't add much to the game, imo, not when so few provinces can be added.

I wondered about France a little myself when I got finished and stepped back to look at the whole map.
To justify the new additions, France was a wealthy, well-inhabited area that was fought over constantly during the Medieval age, much like Italy. There are few provinces in it that will belong to the same faction in all three campaigns, especially with the High era starting in 1205.

I also decided not to change Asia Minor at this stage. The major proposal was to add a rich province representing present-day Iraq and/or Iran, to give the Turks more strength. If the Turks turn out to be weak with this map composition, then their are ways of strengthening them without creating a new province.
The deciding factor for me was the fact that the area represented by this new province, while influencing the game area, was not itself fought over by Christians in this time of history, and that the game should be limited to those areas where Christians, and Catholics in particular, were active. This is not meant to slight anyone, it's simply to recognize that this game is designed to only represent a certain part of the earth at a certain time in history.

BTW, I have just edited my initial post to list all the individual changes to the provinces. In addition, if you look at the map you'll notice that I altered the shape of a number of other provinces. I am going to change the shape of central Iberia some, which I simply forgot to do before posting last night. I don't think any new borders will be formed.

If there are other changes you think still need to be made to provincial borders, or if some provinces simply need to be shaped differently, like Austria for example, feel free to chime in.

My point for declaring this the final version was so that we can get a final list of names, then decide upon provincial characteristics like land value, goods and resources, border characteristics, etc., to start entering into all the texts.
It's also necessary so that a final decision can be made on which new factions to add to the game, and then to decide upon provincial ownership for the three campaigns.

And this isn't the half of it, as far as what needs to be done just in the campaign texts

[PseRamesses]

Wes,
You never stop to amaze me. Great work I love the historical accuracy with Denmark holding south of Sweden and that Lithuania finally don´t have sea-access. Nice compromizes in SE France and in Spain. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes5.gif

[Ellesthyan]

If you're changing some provinces, could you make Friesland to control Holland and Sealand? It's so silly that it's a part of France http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

Campaign texts... Could you tell us exactly what you mean by that, as Im sure everyone's eager to help http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ Feb. 16 2004,08:10)]Campaign texts... Could you tell us exactly what you mean by that, as Im sure everyone's eager to help http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif
I assume he means things like:
- revenue value
- goods/resources
- castle piece coordinates
- port coordinates
- neighbors
- border coordinates
- terrain type
- map type
- origin spot
- culture
- architecture
- rebelliousness
- governor title
and maybe some few other things i dont remember, its all in campaign.txt files (eg. early.txt).

Regards,
EC

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Well, I went over the Portugal question back a few weeks ago, but to surmise- it wouldn't add much to the game, imo, not when so few provinces can be added.

I wondered about France a little myself when I got finished and stepped back to look at the whole map.
To justify the new additions, France was a wealthy, well-inhabited area that was fought over constantly during the Medieval age, much like Italy. There are few provinces in it that will belong to the same faction in all three campaigns, especially with the High era starting in 1205.

I really don't want to be annoying and I understand that you have very few possiblities of adding provinces. I understand that MedMOD and MilleniumMOD don't include the Portuguese faction. So, dividing Portugal serves no purpose on MedMOD or MilleniumMOD.

However, in BKB's MOD and my MOD, the Portuguese are represented and dividing Portugal in 2 provinces should increase the feel of the game. I was hoping to use your map for my MOD. So, that was the reason for sugesting the division of the region of Portugal.

Just a little Historical justification for my sugestion:

Yes, France was a highly disputed area in the Middle Ages, but the fact that you have subdivided Castille and Cordoba is a sign of dispute itself in the Peninsula. The Portuguese regions of Alentejo (Northern Al-Gharb) and Algarve (Southern sea border of Al-Gharb) were conquered and lost by the Portuguese, Almoravids and Almohads for nearly 200 years.

I'm really not asking for 3 regions (Portucale, Alentejo and Algarve), just 2 (Portucale and Al-Gharb). But I understand your choises... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

[Norseman]

Ohh my I think this map will improve gameplay enormously http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I really like how you no longer can effectively choke the eastern part of the map by simply holding Kiev and Lithuania, as well as those extra regions in Iberia and France.

I think maybe Aymar have a point though about dividing Portugal into two. Well, I guess we can't have it all...


Quote[/b] ]
WesW wrote:
Note: I am using Africa's colors for the region of Finland as well, since it will be treated as "uninhabitable".
I have not tested to see if two of the colors unavailable for normal provinces could be substituted for Africa's present colors. If so, it would then give us one last province to add to the game. I would like to keep this as an ace-in-the-hole possibility until we have the beta released and playtesting conducted.

You could make Finland and Africa as Frankland is in Viking Invasion; just a large pink area on the LBM map. Another solution is simply to stretch Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia south to replace Africa, and Novgorod west to replace Finland. That would free those two colours for another region.

On the other hand Re Berengaria had an excellent idea using Africa to boost the rebel economy, and thus even making the rebels harder to pick on. So maybe holding on to Africa/Finland is not such a bad idea? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

Anyway, good to see you back WesW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-balloon.gif

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Feb. 16 2004,12:07)]
Quote[/b] ]Well, I went over the Portugal question back a few weeks ago, but to surmise- it wouldn't add much to the game, imo, not when so few provinces can be added.

I wondered about France a little myself when I got finished and stepped back to look at the whole map.
To justify the new additions, France was a wealthy, well-inhabited area that was fought over constantly during the Medieval age, much like Italy. There are few provinces in it that will belong to the same faction in all three campaigns, especially with the High era starting in 1205.

I really don't want to be annoying and I understand that you have very few possiblities of adding provinces. I understand that MedMOD and MilleniumMOD don't include the Portuguese faction. So, dividing Portugal serves no purpose on MedMOD or MilleniumMOD.

However, in BKB's MOD and my MOD, the Portuguese are represented and dividing Portugal in 2 provinces should increase the feel of the game. I was hoping to use your map for my MOD. So, that was the reason for sugesting the division of the region of Portugal.

Just a little Historical justification for my sugestion:

Yes, France was a highly disputed area in the Middle Ages, but the fact that you have subdivided Castille and Cordoba is a sign of dispute itself in the Peninsula. The Portuguese regions of Alentejo (Northern Al-Gharb) and Algarve (Southern sea border of Al-Gharb) were conquered and lost by the Portuguese, Almoravids and Almohads for nearly 200 years.

I'm really not asking for 3 regions (Portucale, Alentejo and Algarve), just 2 (Portucale and Al-Gharb). But I understand your choises... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif
I agree that there should be 2 Portuguese provinces. You could make them by deleting that region between Granada and Valencia. I think splitting Portugal would give much more complexity to the situation in the Iberian peninsula. The Portuguese could better compete with the Spanish and the Aragonese in reconquista, or at least have better chances for survival. What do you think Wes?

Regards,
EC

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (Norseman @ Feb. 16 2004,13:23)]On the other hand Re Berengaria had an excellent idea using Africa to boost the rebel economy, and thus even making the rebels harder to pick on. So maybe holding on to Africa/Finland is not such a bad idea? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif
What is everyones experience with the rebels getting this income? I've found it makes some campaigns very unbalanced - get a rebellion in a territory, go to war with the rebels, and you're done for. Especially since you can't make peace with the rebels, can you?

Oh, and good to see you back Wes, the map is awesome.

AB

[Ellesthyan]

Not good. The province of Murcia is necessary to ensure the christian and muslim powers are repressented well. Portugal wasn't THAT significant, and the Moorish states (Repressented by Murcia and Cordoba) were very powerful, very divided, and certainly more interesting and important then another province for Portugal. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame another province cannot be added, but Portugal loses when it's about deleting a different province.

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
What is everyones experience with the rebels getting this income? I've found it makes some campaigns very unbalanced - get a rebellion in a territory, go to war with the rebels, and you're done for. Especially since you can't make peace with the rebels, can you?


You must keep in mind that Re Berengaria made the income in Africa HUUUGE. I don't remember exactly but it was something like 50000 Make it lets just say something like 7500, and it will still boost the rebels but without making them too strong. Anyway, the rebels in the original game are IMO far to weak.

[-Isapostolos-]

I'm glad that you have recovered Wess and that you can start working again on your mod.

I agree that adding Portugal would create a more dynamic battle in Iberia, which would be kind of akin to the battles that will take places in France. But I think any changes should only be made if there is room for them.

Anyway, I was kind of hoping that you would react to my Asia minor ideas I mentioned in the last thread, and which Russ Mitchell e-mailed to you if I am not mistaken.

In case you missed the proposals, I'll type up my proposals once again. The following borders should IMO be shifted in Asia minor and it's surroundings:

-Macedonia receives Gallipoli (making a land bridge from Gallipoli to Nicaea), so that you can cross from Asia Minor to Europe, and vice versa. Thrace would now not be so essential for crossing from Europe to Asia, which is also historically correct since the Turks, Nicaeans and Latins crossed over the Hellespont rather than the Bosporus when they attempted their conquests on each of the continents. Byzantium would also be able to stick around longer since it would techinacally now easier retain their main source of wealth and because Thrace can only be accesed via Bulgaria ,Macedonia and ofcourse the sea. The AI genarally chooses the land route, so I think the AI will much more often try to reach Europe via the landbridge at Gallipoli than via the Bosporus with boats.

-I also think moving Rum westward would make the province more essential for the control of Asia minor, because the central Anatolian plateau was the main source of Turkish power. Northern Anatolia (the province) would be given to Rum, and southern Anatolia would remain Anatolia.

-When Rum would be moved westward, Lesser armenia can use up the space created and shut of Asia minor from Antioch, Edessa and Syria. This would would make Lesser Armenia a choke point for entering Asia mnor along with Armenia which is geographicaly correct since the Taurus and Anti-Taurus mountains which lie at Lesser Armenia's spot have very few accesible passes making it very easy to defend the mountain range.

I really would like to hear your comments Wes, since have posted these ideas a couple of times but you hav enot yet responded.

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ Feb. 16 2004,14:14)]Not good. The province of Murcia is necessary to ensure the christian and muslim powers are repressented well. Portugal wasn't THAT significant, and the Moorish states (Repressented by Murcia and Cordoba) were very powerful, very divided, and certainly more interesting and important then another province for Portugal. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame another province cannot be added, but Portugal loses when it's about deleting a different province.
The Almos have already quite a few provinces, why should they get another one? There are other ways they can be strengthened, if that is what it's all about. You said those territories were very divided and important and so on, but hey, all those humongous Russian regions were also pretty divided into many principalities, and this played a significant role when the Golden Horde invaded, and there are even less of them now on the map, but its ok because the balance is preserved in that region.

Regards,
EC

[TheSilverKnight]

Wes, there is something I must say. THERE IS NO MALTA
In order for it to be a completely historical map, there must be the Isle of Malta, which was the Home of Knights Hospitaller. Just a small correction which I'm sure can be fixed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Ellesthyan]

If the Almos lose proper Cordoba, it's normally game over for them as they lose one of their main provinces, lose a significant stronghold in Spain, and lose their oneprovince border. In history that was never the case, as the battle went back and forth, with both parties taking a province, losing it again, etc. New Castile, Valencia, Murcia, Cordoba make that possible. Of course, dividing Portugal would fit in that picture, but the province of Murcia has a lot more impact on that aspect. Only real advantage of another Portugese province over another Almohad province (besides strengthening the faction) is to satisfy the Portugese... Hey, I'd love a Holland province too

If you wanna get Portugal another province, try to get a less useful province and propose its delete. For example (just tossing) merging Corsica with Sardinia. Or Gotland with Sweden. I dunno... I only really think that Murcia is preferred over South-Portugal.

EDIT: New instead of Old Castile http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
If you wanna get Portugal another province, try to get a less useful province and propose its delete. For example (just tossing) merging Corsica with Sardinia. Or Gotland with Sweden. I dunno... I only really think that Murcia is preferred over South-Portugal.


I think Ellesthyan has some good points here. I agree that Murcia should be prioritized above a second Portuguese region. However, Sardinia and Corsica were hardly that important? I'm no history buff, but have read a little bit on the medieval Italian wars. I have only seen Sardinia/Corsica mentioned one or two times, and never as important regions. I may be wrong, but IMO a second Portuguese region is more important than keeping Sardinia and Corsica divided.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Only real advantage of another Portugese province over another Almohad province (besides strengthening the faction) is to satisfy the Portugese... Hey, I'd love a Holland province too

If you wanna get Portugal another province, try to get a less useful province and propose its delete. For example (just tossing) merging Corsica with Sardinia. Or Gotland with Sweden. I dunno... I only really think that Murcia is preferred over South-Portugal.
I didn't said I wanted to trade a Portuguese for an Almohad province. The Portuguese province should replace one of the French ones. In High (in a MOD that allows it) the Portuguese should only have 1 province (Portucale), not 2. In Early, Al-Gharb should be in Almohad possession as well as Murcia and New Castille.

[Eastside Character]

So what about making Corsica and Genoa one region? It would be like with Denmark which has lands on the Jutland peninsula and on the Scandinavian peninsula. Then we could split Portugal without loosing Murcia.

Regards,
EC

[Russ Mitchell]

Hi Wes. Let me see tonight if I can comprehend how early.txt works, and if so, I"ll fill in as much as I know... the map coordinates part I likely won't be competent for... but I'll see what I can come up with.

glad to see you're feeling a little better.

Guys, let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good here...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Guys, let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good here...
I'm not trying to... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

I won't bug anyone anymore, but here is my last sugestion:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Mapa%20de%20prov%edcias%20m%e1ximas.jpg

[The Wizard]

Personally, I believe Asia Minor is pretty ill-represented province-wise in MTW.

The Sultanate of Rûm was not limited to the areas that it has as a province in MTW, and extended further into Anatolia. I believe Anatolia shouldn't even be a province, and should be divided amongst Nicaea, Trebizond and Rûm.

What you did to Greece is great Wes, it rocks Very GJ on that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

Also I believe Gallipoli should be a province or something like that (at least something important). It was an important stragetic position, and the only - and first - outpost of the Ottomans in Europe for many years.

Merging Gotland with Sweden wouldn't be historically accurate IMHO. What is today Sweden was divided into Gotland and Sweden in the day, and that is what limited Sweden's power in Scandinavia up until Sweden finally absorbed Gotland. Until that time, Norway had been the principle Scandinavian kingdom.

For the rest - Very good job again Wes, looking forward to this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



~Wiz

[Erebus1101]

Fist of all I would like to thank Wes for his work, I belive it will be amazing once this mod its done.

I'm glad to see new provinces in spain, however ever since i first played mtw the shape of them seemed strange, and now that new provinces are added it looks even worse imo.

I took some books and also some information on the net and came up with what seemed a more natural distribution.

http://www.regulus.yourprivatespace.com/LukMapSpain.gif

The map I found represented the provinces from 1212-1492 when most of the reconquest was done, and those strange lines shows the borders of the provinces in the map i found and the dark dots the posicion of the main city.

Castilla la Vieja: Burgos
Castilla la Nueva: Toledo
Kingdom of Murcia: Murcia
the rest as they are now

I accidentally deleted it but actually the province Leon is the sum of Galicia and Leon, and the coastal territory in the north is the Principality of Asturias. I though this territory could be split between leon and Navarra, so that Castilla la vieja wouldnt have access to the sea, since the Castilean kingdom wasnt powerful on the sea, in fact they didnt became a naval power until late when they conquered most of the penninsula, and their main ports were in the south like the port of Cadiz, but at last I left it as it was.

On the map i found Castilla la Nueva was really big, so cut away the part in the west that is Extremadura and merged it with Andalucia to make Cordoba.

Aragon is now bigger, in fact it should be split in Aragon and Catalonia. Catalonia was a collection of small counties independent from france, all under the control of the Count of Barcelona, and it wasnt until 1137 after the death of Alfons I of Aragon when the Count of Barcelona became prince of Aragon and later his son bacame both the king of Aragon and Count of Barcelona, so basically, all later Counts of Barcelona were also kings of Aragon. Well just a remark, i can live on with them being merged but please change the provincial title to Count of Barcelona at least.

Hmm what else can we see, well Leon doesnt have common border with Cordoba anymore, i think this way is better since the castilians wont have to split their forces among 3 provinces.

I would also suggest to let Castilla la nueva be rebel in early campaing since it was in 1086 when toledo was conquered by the spanish and most of it was under control of the arabs. Toledo actually served as a border outpost during most part of the reconquista and on the map it is quite far in the north of the province.

I also support the idea of portugal being split in 2, as someone said earlier i think that Genoa and Corsica could be merged, corsica wasnt that important either, we could improve genoa, and reduce the size of corsica (well, i think that all the islands on that map are oversized, just look at crete or cyprus). If it was on me I would merge genoa-corsica crete-"any province in greece" and split syria for the sake of the turks. I would also like to see more trading goods in tripoli and antioch like it was originally, since in the medmod IMO doing a crusade to those provinces isnt worth of it anymore.

keep up the good work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif ,

[SicilianVespers]

I just wanted to point something out here...

By merging or outright getting rid of islands and provinces in the Mediterranean. You will really be ruining the game for the Med. countries.

You may not think the islands are important, but they were the front line in the wars with Islam.

Pisa, Genoa, Sicily, Aragon, Byzantine not to mention the Muslims, all fought over Sardinia and Corsica.

The Muslims besieged Constantinople by island hopping thru the Aegean.

They may not be stategic to Poland or Portugal, but they were important to the Italian states and Byzantium.

[Ellesthyan]

Ok, first off, everyone should realise that for EVERY province you add, another will have to be deleted Therefore just proposing all the provinces you can think off is absolutely not possible to implement.

I agree on the med islands. They were fought over regulary, and the map is cut on 2 islands already. Let one thing be clear: I think the map Wes presented is very good, and I think that dividing portugal, or change Spain at all, is not necessary.
But all can be changed later if anything turns out the wrong way: Byzantines overpowered, not enough med islands, gotland not necessary, etc. I think Wes intended not to further the discussion about the map (there have been already 5 pages of arguments) and he rather seeks help on the more difficult bits: what factions to include, the placement of mines and other resources, etc. etc.

[Russ Mitchell]

Checked out early.txt... I am totally hopeless regarding pixel coordinates, since I don't have that kind of image software handy, but teh rest of it doesn't seem all that difficult... I'll try my hand at it and see what I can come up with.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I'm glad to see new provinces in spain, however ever since i first played mtw the shape of them seemed strange, and now that new provinces are added it looks even worse imo.

I took some books and also some information on the net and came up with what seemed a more natural distribution.



The map I found represented the provinces from 1212-1492 when most of the reconquest was done, and those strange lines shows the borders of the provinces in the map i found and the dark dots the posicion of the main city.

Castilla la Vieja: Burgos
Castilla la Nueva: Toledo
Kingdom of Murcia: Murcia
the rest as they are now

I accidentally deleted it but actually the province Leon is the sum of Galicia and Leon, and the coastal territory in the north is the Principality of Asturias. I though this territory could be split between leon and Navarra, so that Castilla la vieja wouldnt have access to the sea, since the Castilean kingdom wasnt powerful on the sea, in fact they didnt became a naval power until late when they conquered most of the penninsula, and their main ports were in the south like the port of Cadiz, but at last I left it as it was.

On the map i found Castilla la Nueva was really big, so cut away the part in the west that is Extremadura and merged it with Andalucia to make Cordoba.

Aragon is now bigger, in fact it should be split in Aragon and Catalonia. Catalonia was a collection of small counties independent from france, all under the control of the Count of Barcelona, and it wasnt until 1137 after the death of Alfons I of Aragon when the Count of Barcelona became prince of Aragon and later his son bacame both the king of Aragon and Count of Barcelona, so basically, all later Counts of Barcelona were also kings of Aragon. Well just a remark, i can live on with them being merged but please change the provincial title to Count of Barcelona at least.

Hmm what else can we see, well Leon doesnt have common border with Cordoba anymore, i think this way is better since the castilians wont have to split their forces among 3 provinces.

I would also suggest to let Castilla la nueva be rebel in early campaing since it was in 1086 when toledo was conquered by the spanish and most of it was under control of the arabs. Toledo actually served as a border outpost during most part of the reconquista and on the map it is quite far in the north of the province.

I also support the idea of portugal being split in 2, as someone said earlier i think that Genoa and Corsica could be merged, corsica wasnt that important either, we could improve genoa, and reduce the size of corsica (well, i think that all the islands on that map are oversized, just look at crete or cyprus). If it was on me I would merge genoa-corsica crete-"any province in greece" and split syria for the sake of the turks. I would also like to see more trading goods in tripoli and antioch like it was originally, since in the medmod IMO doing a crusade to those provinces isnt worth of it anymore.
I don't agree. Spain has enough provinces with WesW's alterations. You have a MAX limit to take into consideration. I don't agree that ANY of islands should disapear.




Quote[/b] ]I just wanted to point something out here...

By merging or outright getting rid of islands and provinces in the Mediterranean. You will really be ruining the game for the Med. countries.

You may not think the islands are important, but they were the front line in the wars with Islam.

Pisa, Genoa, Sicily, Aragon, Byzantine not to mention the Muslims, all fought over Sardinia and Corsica.

The Muslims besieged Constantinople by island hopping thru the Aegean.

They may not be stategic to Poland or Portugal, but they were important to the Italian states and Byzantium.
I agree. You're right. None of the islands should disapear.

[Erebus1101]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Feb. 18 2004,10:36)]I don't agree. Spain has enough provinces with WesW's alterations. You have a MAX limit to take into consideration. I don't agree that ANY of islands should disapear.
Thats true but I havent added new provinces to spain, there are those 10 which Wes also proposed (Navarra, New/old castilla, aragon, valencia, leon, cordoba, murcia, granada, portugal).

I know we cant add provinces at whim and about spliting portugal, it was just a wish, i didnt wanted to be forceful about that. In the map i drew portugal isnt split.

I seem to be having problems with uploading that picture, well here is a link anyways.

http://www.regulus.yourprivatespace.com/LukMapSpain.gif

I just want propose that the shape of the existent provinces should be changed and along with it a mayor change should be that leon wont be a border province anymore, that was all, no new province (Portugal is another matter).

You can forget the thing about the islands, it was just that when i played the original game, when byzantines lost all continental provinces, having 3 islands didnt help them at all, the were sitting in cyprus 200 years without doing nothing. The main reason was that the islands were under developed and poor, i think they were actually in red all the time. Maybe putting some tradable goods or more buildings at the start should help it just to make them useful.

[Erebus1101]

I knew that the picture wasnt displayed, no wonder none understood what i was talking about, oh well this time this should work
http://www.regulus.yourprivatespace.com/Lukmap1.htm

[Aurelian]

Alright, in the spirit of making this map project the new definitive standard for MTW, I'll throw in my two cents. First off, thanks for all the hard work to Wes and the rest of the community. MedMod has been great. About the map:

1) I would argue in favor of making Constantinople its own space. To accomplish this, Thrace and Macedonia could be merged to form a single province (perhaps named Thessalonica). Thessalonica and Nicaea would have a crossing point between them. Constantinople would only be adjacent to Thessalonica and the Bosphorus sea zone (which could be recreated by eliminating the sea zone where Rhodes used to be). The city could be given an 'island box' like Venice now has.

Constantinople could be specialized into Byzantium's prime troop producing zone (perhaps by switching naval unit production to Nicaea or Thessalonica), and the rebellion rating of the province raised slightly (leading to larger garrisons). I think that this would better represent Constantinople's primary role in the Byzantine Empire, as well as the difficulty of taking the city.

Too often in MTW, Byzantine armies are on the peripheries and Constantinople is left unguarded. Almost every game I've played has featured someone just wandering into an unoccupied Constantinople. Making Constantinople a more rebellious troop raising province would make it much more likely that the AI would actually garrison the city. Making the only entry or exit by land through Thessalonica would keep the AI from retreating out of the province when an enemy army appears.

Thessalonica would make historical and tactical sense as a province. It would allow the Turks to cross from Nicaea to the Balkans (as they did historically) without conquering Constantinople. It would provide shorter access between the other Greek territories and Nicaea, providing a more natural flow of movement. It also would allow a fairly good representation of the Latin states after the fall of Constantinople in 1204 (Thessalonica being one of the feudal divisions, along with Epirus, Achaea, and the Latin Empire in Constantinople).

Anyway, I think this would go a long way towards alleviating some of the strange things that happen to the Byzantine empire in MTW, and would make Constantinople feel more like the last bastion of the Romans that it was.

[Russ Mitchell]

Allow me to step in here a moment:

1. The mod needs to move forward. That means there needs to be a map fix, and right now, this is the fix that Wes has for us. Everybody knows it doesn't jive up with all the realities: I could have made just as strong an argument for the inclusion of Moravia, as one of the major gateways to the HRE, as for any province on this map. The Balkans are still a mess, for that matter. But CA accidentally screwed us with the color limitations, so afaik, the only way to do any one region totally right is to go ahead and put in the sweat equity for a regional mod, as BKB's page suggests that he is doing. Or, of course, to break out a paint program and show Wes a completed map...

2. Provinces are a matter of game balance, because it is the base that determines from where troops can be drawn. In this context, Malta and Rhodes simply do not count. Does anybody seriously argue that M + R were significant economic bases, let alone bases of manpower comparable to even the smallest of the other provinces? Sorry, but considering game balance, it just ain't so. (This is why "Hungary" has been split as well into two quasi-historical units, even though historically it was one giant critter. The "standard" map puts Hungary on an equal manpower footing with Sicily or Wessex, which obviously ain't the case. The same thing goes for Mazovia, and for exactly the same reason, under ideal circumstances, breaking Poland into Greater and Lesser Poland.)

3. **IF** it turns out that we wind up with an extra province to play with, I absolutely agree with the comment regarding Thessalonica as the most important of the many correct suggestions that have been made: but not if it involves a merge.

Wes:
I'm working through early.txt now. It's not all that bad except for the map coordinates. Since I **do** have historical knowledge here and there, I"m going to keep the travel zones (aka "neighbors") historically accurate. Therefore, Transylvania->Pannonia is cut by the invisible Vojvodina, and if you must cross TransDanubia to go from one to the other (historically accurate for the late Romans, too): similarly, one must occupy or move through Wallachia in order to get to Bulgaria. It'll look a little odd, but by doing so, we can also integrate the previously-discussed historical chokepoints w/o putting the whole mod on hold for another six months while everybody tries to get their pet are represented to their wishes.

[Zhuge_Liang]

first of all i glad you are better WesW, and you are amazing me with your mod.
i think spain should be divided on the north, because there were a heavy strong on the north, lots of men in a small lands, where there were too much power
i think the lands of Asia should be divided too because turkians have to became stronger than they already are
england should be divided as much as possible, because they have no power for being one of the stronger european faction and there is no balance between england and french, they always ends loosing

[-Isapostolos-]

I agree Russ, there has to be made a decision. Every one wants that extra province he/she fancies, but that can't really be done because not everyone can be satisfied. But I still think for the sake of game balance, that Macedonia should get Gallipoli. It would help the Byzantines soooo much, and improve the gameplay alot. I am sure of it.

Somehow the Latin Empire needs to be made crappy, but I think this would be a difficult task with all those knights and 3 provinces at the start (Constantinople, Macedonia, Achaea). Maybe they should get some knigts at the start, but from then on they would only be able to get knights as expensive mercs. This would show lack of support from the west for the Latin kingdom. If the Latin player wastes his intial strong armies, he is generally done for, just like the real Latins.

Anyway. Is it Wes's plan to add more factions? In that case I really think there should be Epiros faction for the High era, since Epiros was the big contender along with Nicaea for the reclamation of the imperial throne. Serbia or Bulgaria would be good aswel although I think they are less important, although Serbia might be nice for the late era when Serbia began a big player under Stephan Dusan.

If either of these Balkan factions would be created I suggest that the province incomes of Bulgaria and Serbia go up a bit, so that they could contend a little with all the Anatolian wealth.

But how wealthy should Epiros, Macedonia and Achaia be? I think that if all of them have reasonable incomes Byzantium might get to rich at the early era, since it has all the Greek provinces then.

So I think this would be best:

-Thessalonica: Rich income, about the same income as Nicaea, high farm income, plains except at the northern borders (I know it's not completely correct but since most of the fights evolve around Thessalonica, I think plains would be good and a nice change)
-Epiros: Average income, something like Anatolia with trade good, mountainous
-Achaea: Low income, mountainous

As for provincial names, capital cities and gorverner titles:

-Macedonia, Thessalonica, Strategos
-Epiros, Dyrrachium, Despot
-Achaea, Mistra, Duke(?)

[Ellesthyan]

Good stuff Istopolos.

The Byzantine Empire controlled around 1087 the provinces:
Krim, Trebizond, Cyprus, Crete, Achaea, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and Bulgaria. That's 9 () whopping provinces, with 4 borders to defend. The Turks in Anatolia should be dangerous. Trebizond is only recently recaptured, but much of the Turkish provinces have a significant amount of christen inhabitants.
Alexios I has just beaten the Sicilians who controlled Epirus for a rather long time, defeated the Petchenegen and secured Bulgaria, and is now launching a new assault on the Turks. The emperor with the biggest part of the army should therefore be situated in Trebizond, with a large amount of mercenaries (especially Frankish knights, Cuman light cavalry and Turkish dartsmen and horse archers). Some kind of thematic armies should be left in the provinces, with maybe some mercenaries in Constantinople.
The fleet is pathetic, maybe 2 or 3 ships. Byzantine generals in the provinces have a low low loyalty. Many were the battles the Byzantines fought against themselves...
Princes Anna Comnena, Prince John II, and some other princes and princesses. A few emissaries, and maybe a spy and an assassin to reflect Byzantium's dependence on them.
Constantinople is the largest city in the world. Thessaloniki is the second city of the Empire, with a honorable note to Dyrachium. Therefore, a citadel in Thrace, a Castle/keep in Macedonia, and a keep in Epiros. All other cities should be forts. Constantinople and Thessaloniki extensively developed, maybe a shipyard in Constantinople (although main ship building was done in the west-coast of Anatolia...). Rest of Greece and Bulgaria have been fought over recently, and should therefore be undeveloped. A few facilities on the islands and the Krim. An inn in Constantinople.
On heroes: Alexios's brother (Isaac I believe) was a rather good general, Tacitus was instrumental in campaigns in Anatolia, more I can't come up with atm.
Valor bonuses: Kataphraktoi in Const., spear units from Achaea and other Greek provinces, archers from Trebizond and Bulgaria, cavalry from Macedonia and the Anatolian provinces.

Hope that helps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif They're only suggestions, if you think I've made a mistake please enlighten me

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (SicilianVespers @ Feb. 18 2004,07:47)]By merging or outright getting rid of islands and provinces in the Mediterranean. You will really be ruining the game for the Med. countries.

You may not think the islands are important, but they were the front line in the wars with Islam.
I think one of the great things about Wes's medmod is that it makes a better game by making the game mechanics work better for the existing AI. This has been the case with his CIV Call to Power mods as well MTW.

Keeping that in mind, i don't think the AI handles islands very well at all. They easily get stuck on them and go into economic collapse. Or, they don't invade them when they should. As the human player, they are an easy way to get a navel base along trade routes, which keeps your ship upkeep cost lower. The AI doens't do this.

Given that the AI doen'st handle islands well, i'd do what i can to elimante all but the most important, and attach those that are left to the mainland whenever possible (IE; Sicily).

Given this, i would scratch Gotlund (too small), combine Corsica & Sardinia and create a land bridge to Tuscany(to make one viable economic entity). The new Venice Island can attach to the mainland as well.

This leaves Cyprus and Crete as stand-alone islands. I'd even consider attaching Crete to Greece AND Nicea (which would make it a Strategic target), and Cyprus to Anatolia and Antioch. This would make both these islands work for the AI in the way they worked through-out ancient history -launching points for further invasions.

This frees up two spaces. I'd use these to add two provinces to Turkey. This is a highly contest area, and if you look at the overall New Map, it has far fewer provinces than Europe does. I understand and agree with the decision to reduce the Territories in Africa and Russia, because they aren't a focul point for this game. Turkey is.

AB

[-Isapostolos-]

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ Feb. 18 2004,15:32)]Good stuff Istopolos.

The Byzantine Empire controlled around 1087 the provinces:
Krim, Trebizond, Cyprus, Crete, Achaea, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and Bulgaria. That's 9 () whopping provinces, with 4 borders to defend. The Turks in Anatolia should be dangerous. Trebizond is only recently recaptured, but much of the Turkish provinces have a significant amount of christen inhabitants.
Good ideas Ellesthyan, but I'd like to note a few things.

I didn't understand why Trebizond was added to the original Medmod early era Byzantine terratories, bit I am very sure that this is incorrect. Between 1071-1081 Byzantium lost almost all ground in Anatolia, except for a few (major) cities, including Trebizond. But even though Trebizond remained Byzantine, I think it would be better if the province is in Turkish hands, since most of the other important cities on the northern Anatolian coastline were in Seljuk hands.

Alexius was busy with a reconquest? That didn't happen until the crusaders arrived. Alexius called in help from the west BECAUSE the empire couldn't reconquer Anatolia on it's own. Until the crusades, the Byzantines had just enough troops to defend themselves. Remember that like you said, Alexius had just fought of the Giscard and his Normans so I imagine his army was at a low profile, being completely exhausted. So generally the empire should have few troops to defend many provincies.

But 8 provinces is still alot like you said, and I fear that Byzantium will get to strong because once again ,like in the original game, it has a too big of a treasury. So I suggest that even though it isn't historically correct, that Bulgaria would be either rebel or Serbian, and maybe Epiros should be handed to the Sicilians because they possessed it a few years back.

Alternatively, the Turks could be made atleast as rich as the Byzantines, but I fear this would outbalance them in comparison to the Egyptians. The best solution once again IMO would be to add a Anatolian province like A_B said, bit I know every one dislikes that, so I guess that's open to discussion.

So What do you guys think about adding a Anatolian province in order to strengthen the Turks?

p.s What is Wes's motivation for adding Gotland, because it replaces one dreaded island for another ?

[Ellesthyan]

Isostopolos, I remember reading that Alexios did control Trebizond by 1087, and therefore I assume that he was busy trying to assault Anatolia. I did not say he succeeded tho He needed his western friends for that in 1096. Also, WHOLE Anatolia including the province Trebizond was overrun by the Turks. Slowly the bosporuscoast was retaken, attempts from Trebizond were made, and finally with help of the crusaders Nicaea could be retaken and the rest of the coast.
According to Anna Comnena, her father was constantly trying to retake Anatolia by bribing, fighting (via Tacitus) and weakening the Turkish central power. The Byzantines did not have enough troops to fight the Turks head on, but they could easily fight their ameers and sultans one at the time. The Turkish state was like the Holy Roman Empire; the sultan had almost no effective power over its ameers. To further strengthen my point, Alexios almost succeeded in taking Nicaea in 1084, but only because another ameer helped the one of Nicaea the Byzantine general had to break up the siege. The Byzantines were masters in fighting no decisive battles; Alexios was slowly breaking down the Turkish power by many other things then armies.

The Byzantine armies were really, really small, as in their full existence they had troubles extracting recruits from the native population, certainly compared to the Turks and the westerners. However, the Byzantine treasure was immense, and it could easily pay large mercenary forces. Actually, most of its native army was paid as if they were mercenaries. I don't know how to recreate that in the game tho...


The Byzantines can be powerful, but I think that the Italians will be much more a threat then usual, because Greece is easier attacked. Also limiting the income and fleet of Byzantium can create a "bad start". However, the Donau states present almost no threat to the Byzantines, and that allows them to concentrate their full force on the east. My solution would be adding the Serbian and Cuman/Petchenegen factions, with a proper army.

[Russ Mitchell]

Hungary and Mazovia are done. (not counting coordinate info). Am under the weather but hope to have all the new stuff down to, but not including, the greek stuff about which I know nothing done by ither tonight or friday.

[SicilianVespers]

Russ, If you have any questions about the Greek provinces I would be glad to assist.

I may be able to scan some maps if it would help.

[-Isapostolos-]

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ Feb. 18 2004,17:30)]Isostopolos, I remember reading that Alexios did control Trebizond by 1087, and therefore I assume that he was busy trying to assault Anatolia. I did not say he succeeded tho He needed his western friends for that in 1096. Also, WHOLE Anatolia including the province Trebizond was overrun by the Turks. Slowly the bosporuscoast was retaken, attempts from Trebizond were made, and finally with help of the crusaders Nicaea could be retaken and the rest of the coast.
According to Anna Comnena, her father was constantly trying to retake Anatolia by bribing, fighting (via Tacitus) and weakening the Turkish central power. The Byzantines did not have enough troops to fight the Turks head on, but they could easily fight their ameers and sultans one at the time. The Turkish state was like the Holy Roman Empire; the sultan had almost no effective power over its ameers. To further strengthen my point, Alexios almost succeeded in taking Nicaea in 1084, but only because another ameer helped the one of Nicaea the Byzantine general had to break up the siege. The Byzantines were masters in fighting no decisive battles; Alexios was slowly breaking down the Turkish power by many other things then armies.

The Byzantine armies were really, really small, as in their full existence they had troubles extracting recruits from the native population, certainly compared to the Turks and the westerners. However, the Byzantine treasure was immense, and it could easily pay large mercenary forces. Actually, most of its native army was paid as if they were mercenaries. I don't know how to recreate that in the game tho...


The Byzantines can be powerful, but I think that the Italians will be much more a threat then usual, because Greece is easier attacked. Also limiting the income and fleet of Byzantium can create a "bad start". However, the Donau states present almost no threat to the Byzantines, and that allows them to concentrate their full force on the east. My solution would be adding the Serbian and Cuman/Petchenegen factions, with a proper army.
No no no, I am absolutely certain that no reconquest was made by the Byzantines beofre the crusades arrived. Alexius despised the crusaders, because he knew exactly what kind of overzealous, money grabbing and dangerous horde of people he was dealing with. He made all the necessary precautions that he deemed neccesary, like setting up food hoards along the roads where the crusaders were expected to travel, so they wouldn't start pillaging the country side for food. I'm sure Alexius didn't go through all that trouble because he needed some extra support for his campaigns of reconquest. Alexius was desperate and badly needed the help from professional arms of the west.

Secondly, when Alexius helped the crusaders across the Bosporus, they were free to go. There was no more Pecheneg police, or food hoardes allong the route of the crusade. Clearly the Byzantines regarded Asia as enemy territory, and they didn't care what the crusaders did with the people across the pond.

Some cities remained Byzantine and were never captured, like Trebizond, but you shouldn't translate this a few blown Byzantine reconquest. Sure the Byzantines invaded when they fought they had a chance, but these were probably small raids by adventurous bands of soldiers. It was the Byzantines not the Turks that were on the back foot until the crusaders arrived.

Turkish power may have been somewhat akin to the HRE, because there wasn't really any central power until the time of the Ottomans. But you shouldn't underestimate them. Thousands upon thousands of Turkish warriors had poured into Anatolia after 1071, plundering and raiding into Byzantine territory every day. If you would beat one emir, another would rise is his place.

Turkish power was never completely brought down, even after the crusaders came. They had settled in central Anatolia from which they launched constant raids and attacks, and all attempts to drive them away from Anatolia were beaten.

Most Byzantine armies after Manzikert didn't recruit from local population at all, and even volutantairy recruits were refused or reluctantly accepted. Most Byzantine armies consisted of foreigners, because basically, most Byzantine Emperors destrusted any native troops. Therefor I think it might be cool to add some Cuman/Alan/Pecheneg troops who can be bought cheaper than all the other troops, because they were more available.

Russ: I'd like to help with the province descriptions, although my modding skills can't really be called advanced. But I think I know most of the basic stuff for provinces. Just tell me what needs to be done.

[Ellesthyan]

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/annacomnena-alexiad06.html

If you think Anna is wrong, you'll need some strong evidence http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

But nonetheless, I agree on using a lot of mercenary like units for the Byzantines.

[Russ Mitchell]

Elles: Anna was wrong OFTEN. Check around, her stuff must always be double-checked, and never used at face value.

Iso: for the greek territories, I know the terrain after having been all over it, but I need you to email me with the basic income you'd expect for each one, and which is which (pretty sure I know, but it's always best to assume I'm stupid) -- oh, and any natural resources or trade for which it was known.

I was sick, and so have gotten no further, and my guests from out of town just walked in the door. Call it late monday or tuesday, and I'll have all the stuff in my bailiwick taken care of.

[WesW]

Hello, everyone. I'm glad to see that there is still so much interest in the mod, and therefore in the mod, I hope.

I am soon going to make a new thread detailing everything that needs to be done to get this huge project finished so we can begin enjoying it. (I haven't played the game once since November, devoting all my time to this. This version has grown so big that no one can try it out until almost all the pieces are finished.)

First thing: Where is Berengario? He seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. I have sent him multiple emails the last few weeks, with no response, and I have not across any new post, either. I seen to recall that European schools have their semester finals around this time of year, but it's still weird, since he was fully engaged and enthusiastic about the project, and then "poof", he's gone.

Second thing: Provincial coordinates. Russ, the game doesn't use those anymore, so there's no need to worry about them.
As I understand it, the way the maps work go like this:

1)A 256-color palette, unique to this game, is hardcoded into the executable for use in the lbm files.

2)Next, the game reads the list of declared provinces and seas from a campaign text, and assigns them to the hardcoded palette, in the order in which they are declared. This means, for example, that the 50th province declared must be assigned colors 100 and 101 in the lbm palette. (The assignments start at color 2. 1 is the pink used for the sea borders.)
I use Paint Shop Pro for my editing, and if you click the Dropper feature and move it over province or sea of the lbm, the palette number is shown below the RGB stats, which are normally on the left side of the image area.

3)The lmb files are overlaid with various other image files to create the various versions of the strategic map that we see here and there. The only one of these that we need be concerned about is the MapTex(ture).tga, and right now I intend to take care of it.
Note that the lbm palette colors are replaced with the colors assigned to the various factions, and that these colors are limited only by your PC. This is why the faction colors always show up properly when you are selecting campaigns, factions and such.
Proper replacement demands that other lists of all the provinces, which may be found in several other text files, must be identical (i.e. listed in the same order) to the declared list in the campaign text.
You guys need to remember the last bit there about keeping provinces in the same order as the campaign text. If Berengario doesn't return, I think I can handle the creation of the lbm's.

So, you put all this together, and you can see that provincial shapes, and to some extent boundaries, may be changed at any time until work on the MapTex file begins, which I plan to do last. However, the declared list of provinces and seas must be decided upon before most anything else can be done.
That is why I declared this the final map, but left open discussions of some things, like borders and shapes and such.
We have been discussing what provinces should be in the game for more than two months, I have made the decision to now close discussion upon adding or deleting provinces.
We can discuss the fine-tuning of shapes, and what should border or link to what, and terrain and so-forth up until the very last week or so, but debate needs to be closed about who's in and who's out, for this first beta anyway.
If playtesting and discussion of the beta, after release, reveals that one or two changes need to be made, then I'll be happy to make them, but for now I need you guys to help me put this puppy together.

I have carefully considered everyone's comments here, and I have decided that some of them would indeed make the map better. I got the map of medieval Iberia, and I'll use it with the Euratlas maps to make something that I think will please all of us greatly. Well, most of us I guess, since I am not adding or deleting any provinces from the current map.
I'll re-arrange Gallipoli to something that I think will satisfy most of you, and explain how some provinces will link to one another, which I think is causing confusion for some of you.
I finally understand what Isopostolos, or Ellesthyan, has been arguing for with Asia Minor, and I think that it's a fine arrangement. Forgive for being able to bring the post up to see which one of you proposed this.

I am going to post a final version here so you can see the working model. I'll fine-tune it according to historical mountain passes and invasion routes, etc., based upon what Russ and the rest of you know about this period. And of course, if a province's shape just doesn't look right, feel free to bring that up, too, but I'm mostly interested in how the provinces interacted and influenced each other.
I am glad to see people from all over Europe posting here, since you guys should be very familiar with your own neck of the woods, so to speak.

Ok, now for the third, and most important thing to me at the moment- getting you guys to chip in and put this mod together, partially so I don't get to feeling like Duke John, if you read about that. I also hope you'll want to chip in so we can start playing this thing sooner
After I finish the map, I am going to try and lay out all the stuff that needs to be done, and I think all of it will be in the campaign texts.
Russ has said that he has started on some things already, based upon a long letter I sent out last Monday to him and some of the other guys who have helped in the past. A_B responded with a couple of suggestions, but said that he's going to out on a business trip all this week. Quokka responded, but just moved halfway around the world and is not sure that he'll be able to help much, though I tried to assure him otherwise.

I guess what I'll do is break the campaign file down by sections, and briefly explain what needs to be done in them. There are a lot of sections that'll be easier to do myself than put them out for you, but believe me, that still leaves a lot.
Some of it will be drawn from historical knowledge, like what should be the governor titles for the new and re-named provinces, or what goods and/or resources were regions known for, both new and existing.
Other parts will be purely computer typing, like figuring out which provinces border a given province.

And, last but maybe most important, I need faction names and heroes for all the new factions. I had hoped to use the stuff that BKB had put together, but through mis-communication or something, I never got his ok to them. Perhaps he'll get in touch with me once he finally releases his mod, but getting our own stuff together wouldn't hurt, anyway.
PseRamesses sent me a list of Swedish kings a week ago, and I wrote back with a whole list of stuff needed in addition to that, unless you guys want to use the Danish info for everything else- princess names, heroes, prince names, etc. All this stuff will be needed for all the new factions, and I really hope that some of you guys will step up and see that your country is properly represented.
I also was contacted by a Turk, who gave me some info on proper Turkish names and such, as he said the CA work was woefully inaccurate. So, anything you guys know of regarding the existing faction info that needs to be changed- now is the time to correct it.

So, please make time to contribute to the mod this next week or two. A lot of these jobs won't take more than an hour, if that.

[Kaatar]

*idiot alert*
What mod is this for? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[neogerry]

is for medmod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[GreasePaintMonkeyBrains]

I am willing to help put the mod together.just give me a job i can do just about anything

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Feb. 22 2004,11:54)]PseRamesses sent me a list of Swedish kings a week ago, and I wrote back with a whole list of stuff needed in addition to that, unless you guys want to use the Danish info for everything else- princess names, heroes, prince names, etc. All this stuff will be needed for all the new factions, and I really hope that some of you guys will step up and see that your country is properly represented.
Wes,
I didn´t recive any list from you after I sent you the Swedish kings-list. Send it again please and I´ll get right on it.

[metatron]

As the creator of the idea, I will say again... Constantinople http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WesW]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ Feb. 22 2004,16:57)]Wes, I didn´t recive any list from you after I sent you the Swedish kings-list. Send it again please and I´ll get right on it.
Pse, when I replied to your latest email, it got kicked back to me with fatal errors. I guess something similar happened last time.

Isopostolos also wrote tonight asking what he could do to help with faction research, so I went ahead and made out a generic list for all the new factions, which is written below.

First off, and most imporantly, remember that this is for a beta, so write down what you come across, but don't get bogged down with any one category. We can go back and polish all this stuff after the beta is released.

Also remember that I would rather have help with the text work than with the new factions, since if need be we can just use the stuff from existing factions as place-holders just to get the game working, so that I can begin debugging this behemoth.
However, I have gone ahead and laid out everything for those of you who have no interest in the text work, but instead a burning passion for researching one of the civilizations below.

Ideally, I would want:

1)Names of the significant kings, meaning either famous or with long reigns. 2-4 per era will be fine, and provide their birth year if it's listed;

2)The 4 or 5 or most common forenames for Princes. I guess the names of some of the lesser-known kings would suffice;

3)1-3 heroes for each era, with short descriptions of what they did to earn their notoriety.
These can be anyone, even females, and suggestions as to what their special traits should be are welcome, such as 4-star general, "cowardly" or "brave", - or + 2 morale, respectively, "high-level assassin" or "diplomat", etc.

4)A couple dozen male names, for generals, and

5)A dozen or so female names, for princesses.

If you happen across the names of real generals or princesses, that would be nice, of course, but don't spend time searching just for them once you get enough common names.

All of this info is given in the default_heroes.txt, which is in the MTW\campmap\names folder.
I suggest that anyone remotely interested in helping out look through it, even if you don't have time to tackle one of the brand-new factions, since some of the regular major factions are woefully under-represented as far as heroes and famous kings and such.
If you do have time to tackle one or more of the new factions, please do those first, and perhaps in the meantime someone else will step in and provide for the under-represented factions. Remember that this is just for a beta, and that we can add on and otherwise improve the lists at our leisure, once we get the game working.

I need all 5 components listed above for the:

1)Swedes, which PseRamesses has already worked on, so I'll award him this one, unless he doesn't want it.

2a)Cumans (Early and High eras)

2b)Georgians (all three eras)

2c)Lesser (Lower) Armenians) (Early and High eras)

In my reply to Isopostolos I listed these three (2a, b, and c), so I'll let him post as to which he wants to claim.

3)Serbians (all three)

4)Bulgarians (High and Late)

Russ Mitchell would probably be great for those two, but I would rather have him helping me with the text files, so if anyone else wants to claim one I'll probably give it to you.

5)Crusader States of the Holy Lands (High and maybe Late; it'll depend upon how things shape up with the Lesser Armenians and no.6 below.)

6)Latin States of Constantinople and Greece (High and Late)

I didn't have the Latins in mind before the strategic map took shape, so I need some discussion in the "new factions" thread that I am going to make soon to sort everything out.

7)Scottish (all three eras)

8)Irish (Early only)

9)Welsh (Early and High)

Whomever claims one or more of these needs to look through the Rebel Heroes part of the Heroes text, which I pasted at the end of this post, before beginning work on any of these three factions, so that you don't spend time on stuff that's already been done. You can of course add things that you feel are relevant, whether CA got wrong, or just didn't include them.
The Names text, in the MTW\Loc\Eng folder, probably contains common names for these three from the Viking Campaign. (I think they used the letter "v" as an abbreviation to differentiate them the standard campaigns.) But only use them if you think that they would still be used, and with the same spelling, in our game's time period.

10)Navarrese (all three)

11)Portuguese (all three)

I'd just take the Spanish entries and adjust as necessary for the common names of those two above.

12)Kievans (Early and High)

13)Lithuanians (Early and High)

14)Teutonic Order (High and Late eras)

15)Baltic Tribes (all eras)

I'm pretty fuzzy of that one, especially until we get all the provinces alloted for each era. These are the pagan tribes of Pomerania, Prussia and Livonia. I may give them the Mongol's Raider personality, which is historically correct from my reading.

And, no, I haven't counted yet to see if I've gone over the 31 faction limit for each era. (1 is reserved for the Rebels.)

I would like to have enough done on all of them by early next week, so that I can begin debugging, should a miracle occur and we get all the necessary text work finished. Please don't let this deter you from volunteering, but rather use this as a guide as to how much to volunteer for.

FAMOUS_HEROES:: FN_REBEL 18
//hero name date, c, d, p, a, l, v, TYPE ID_REGION PORTRAIT
"El", "Cid", 1054, 4, 5, 4, 3, 3, attacker2, GENERAL, ID_VALENCIA, 1 //El Cid
"Mathilda", "de Boulogne", 1102, 2, 3, 4, 4, 2, bad_sieger1, GENERAL, ID_ANJOU, -1 //opponent of King Stephen
"Leon", "Sgouros", 1180, 3, 5, 3, 5, 3, tyrant1, GENERAL, ID_GREECE, -1 //Tyrant of Naphlion
"Llewellyn", "ap Gruffydd", 1190, 3, 4, 3, 4, 5, attacker1, GENERAL, ID_WALES, -1 //Unified Wales in 1250s, ally of Simon de Montfort
"Robin", "of Locksley", 1191, 3, 1, 3, 2, 6, merciful1, GENERAL, ID_MERCIA, 4 //Robin Hood
"Fra", "Dolcino", 1200, 2, 5, 6, 2, 7, zealot4, GENERAL, ID_MILAN, -1 //Leader of the Dolcinists'"crusade" against Church corruption
"Simon", "de Montfort the Younger", 1208, 2, 4, 2, 3, 2, moneygrabber1, GENERAL, ID_MERCIA, -1 //troublemaker, Barons' struggles against John
"William", "Walays", 1272, 5, 4, 3, 2, 7, fearsome3, GENERAL, ID_SCOTLAND, -1 //Mel Gibson
"Stephan", "Urosh Dushan", 1300, 4, 6, 3, 4, 7, secret_paranoiac3, GENERAL, ID_SERBIA, -1 //"tsar" of Serbia from 1331; conquered Balkan provinces; locked up his dad
"Black", "Agnes Dunbar", 1310, 1, 3, 0, 0, 0, siege_defender3, GENERAL, ID_SCOTLAND, -1 //Bit of a troublemaker, by all accounts
"Dtienne", "Marcel", 1316, 1, 4, 3, 5, 2, moneygrabber2, GENERAL, ID_ILE_DE_FRANCE, -1 //leader of the Paris revolution 1355-58
"Philip", "van Artevelde", 1340, 3, 2, 2, 2, 3, no_v, GENERAL, ID_FLANDERS, -1 //English ally vs. French
"Wat", "Tyler", 1351, 1, 2, 4, 0, 2, bad_attacker3, GENERAL, ID_WESSEX, -1 //Leader of Peasants' Revolt 1381
"Owain", "Glyndwr", 1354, 3, 3, 3, 2, 4, defender2, GENERAL, ID_WALES, -1 //Welsh troublemaker Fought Henry V
"Iskander", "Bey", 1405, 4, 4, 2, 4, 6, scarred1, GENERAL, ID_CROATIA, -1 //Former Turkish soldier; Albanian independence leader
"Klaus", "Stortebeker", 1375, 3, 4, 2, 4, 2, brigand, GENERAL, ID_SAXONY, -1 //Pirate; preyed on Hanseatic League and Denmark
"Ivan", "Asen", 1150, 4, 4, 4, 3, 6, attacker1, GENERAL, ID_BULGARIA, -1 //Led revolt against Byzantium, established Second Bulgarian Empire
"Peter", "Asen", 1151, 4, 4, 4, 3, 6, attacker1, GENERAL, ID_BULGARIA, -1 //Led revolt against Byzantium, established Second Bulgarian Empire

[-Isapostolos-]

Hi Wes,

I'd like to help with the Armenians and Epirots (btw why didn't you list them?) for now. They should be pretty easy to implement, since they are quite akin to the Byzantines.

I can do the Bulgarians, Serbians, Georgians, Trapezuntines and the Latin Empire (or do you want the Kingdom of Thessalonica, Duchy of Achaea and Latin empire of Constantinople to be separate factions?), but only if nobody wants them.

For now I will concern myself with just these 2. While I am at it, I think I will add some Byzantine names aswel, since some of them arn't even surnames.

p.s I didn't receive your reply yet.

[Norseman]

Hi Wes

I know we are limited to 31 factions, but what about including Norway? I noticed that you have Ireland, but Norway was surely more important than Ireland? When the game begins in 1089, it is only 23 years since the Norwegian King attempted to take England(Stamford Bridge, 1066).

In EARLY Norway would also be more important than Sweden, as Norway was a united Kingdom with a large fleet(the "leidang", with which the Norwegian king tried to invade Scotland), while Sweden was dominated by internal conflict.

I can agree that Norway and Sweden is a close race in EARLY, and Wales makes it harder to expand for the English, but Ireland? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

EDIT: I can provide all the info you're asking about for a Norwegian faction.

[Eastside Character]

Hye Wes

I happen to have a complete list of Armenian names, well only that I have no names for princesses. That was info I was gathering for a project of mine, names are from the times of Cilician kingdom so 11th - 12th century as I know.

Here are the names:

armenian forenames (first six names are for royals)

Constantine
Leon
Ruben
Thoros
Hetum
Oshin

Matthew
Nerses
Vardan
Korike
Abraham
Adam
David
Daniel
Franciscos
Garabed
Haig
Israel
Kristapor
Manuel
Pasha
Sahab
Yerem
Zenob
Raphael
Lazar
Izahak
Elijah

armenian surnames

Roubenid - dynasty name
Roslin
Shnorhali
Bagradouni
Ardzrouni
Aygektsi
Ishkanian
Keoshian
Ossian
Astorian
Pilibos
Saffian
Tavrishetsi
Javehirjouni
Arshagouni
Karagozian
Sevacherian
Chulayan
Dardarian
Topalian
Israelizn
Lousinian
Yeretsian
Ter Poggosian
Mardoyan
Jaghajan
Hashonian
Fuzdigian
Boudakian
Chilingirian
Danielian
Igarian
Mathesian
Reizian
Sajian
Sadorian

So I think I'll try to get you also those princesses' names.

The Armenians will be an Orthodox faction, right?
I have also some other info, about units, made a few, so if you think like you need this too, no problem.

Regards,
EC

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Isopostolos @ Feb. 24 2004,07:03)]Hi Wes,

I'd like to help with the Armenians and Epirots (btw why didn't you list them?) for now. They should be pretty easy to implement, since they are quite akin to the Byzantines.
Oh sorry mate if you wanted to provide info for the Armenians. I only read the latest post by Wes and right away replied without reading your post... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif
And then when I was viewing this thread after I made a reply, I see your post and read it and... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

Regards,
EC

[Russ Mitchell]

I'll stick with the text files, then, and I'll also look up some better Hungarian names from my earlier research that'll represent some of the mroe prominent families.

The text file work is not particularly difficult once you've actually seen an example or two...

I don't want to start a serious thread tangent where folks start faction-wrangling (hell, I'd like to see Kiev AND Chernigov represented), but I totally agree regarding Norway vs Ireland... Ireland's contribution was vast, but almost totally limited to the theological sphere: not a prime candidate for a faction in this game.

[-Isapostolos-]

Oh while your at than Russ, I think Georgia is pretty useless too, but if someone would like to stick effort into them, go ahead.

No problem Eastside Character, your work saved me some work. Since your not really finished yet, I'll do the missing stuff.

The first King of Lesser Armenia was Ruben, he was the one that started the uprising against the Byzantines/Crusaders (oddly enough no one is sure).

When he died his grandson Leo took over. He took the important cities in Cilicia including Adana and Tarsos. John Comnenus attacked his realm however shortly thereafter(and the crusaders of Antioch before him), and took most of the cities and strongholds in Lesser Armenia, but Leo kept organising resistence from a small stronghold in the Taurus mountains, though eventually he and the rest of Armenia were taken by the Byzantines.

During the reign of Andronicus I Lesser Armenia rose up again as a state, but I do not known who led this rebellion or when it started (somewhere in the 1180's).

I do not know what age Ruben was, but I imagine he was about 20 in 1071 when he rose to power after Gagik II had died. Leo rose to power in 1129

Both Ruben and Leo were reasonable commanders since both of them had quite some skill in defying the Byzantines/Crusaders. So I suggest that both of them should be skilled attackers.

// 5: byzantine_surnames
ADD_SURNAMES::
"Nicetas"
"Ducas"
"Contostephanus"
"Notaras"
"Curticius"
"Pammakaristos"
"Gabras"
"Dalassenus"
"Vatatzes"
"Xiphilinus"
"Zonaras"
"Melisinos"
"Meletios"
"Branas"
"Kourkas"
"Pachymeres"
"Patras"
"Gemistos"

These are some extra names for the Byzantines, since I thought those names in the game weren’t enough. And could you please remove Bulgaroctonus as a surname (Bulgar slayer)? It’s quite stupid to see a Bulgarian Brigand unit having a leader with the intention to kill his whole unit because of his name. BTW the Phocas surname is in their twice, instead of once.

// 23: armenian_surnames
ADD_SURNAMES::
"Bagratuni"
"Artsruni"
"Gnuni"
"Mamikon"
"Saharuni"
"Rsutuni"
"Kamsarakan"
"Siwnik"
"Bardanes"
"Arsabir"
"Artabasodos"
"Bardas"
"Symbatios"
"Dasxuranci"

These are the names for important noble houses (Naxarars) and each of them has known it’s age of power, but power fluctates constantly in the Armenian world, so most of them didn’t enjoy power for long.

2) Prince names:
"Asot"
"Smbat"
"Leo"
"Ruben"
"Mazez"
"Gagik"

3) Other than Ruben and Leo I do not know of other heroes.

5) Princesses
"Azadouhi"
"Lusaper"
"Maro"
"Maroush"
"Lusentak"
"Azkanoush"
"Dzovig"
"Dzovinar"
"Eliz"
"Eliza"
"Eojen"
"Hasmig"
"Markarid"
"Maro"
"Maroush"
"Marta"
"Heghine"
"Undza"
"Varsenig"
"Varso"

I'll post Epiros heroes and names later.

[Eastside Character]

So the armenian names are now complete, good job Isopostolos. I'll take care of the Lithuanians I think, but gotta do some reading first http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

Regards,
EC

[Zhuge_Liang]

hi Wes
i think you could delete navarrese because navarre is a poor province and is not a great city as Rome is
would be better to give navarre to spanish or aragonese

[Russ Mitchell]

Eastside: what do you think of the Dnieper? I'm looking at how the map lays, and it looks to me like it's going to sit largely along the Volyhynian-Kievan border... whatcha think?

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Feb. 24 2004,05:13)]1)Swedes, which PseRamesses has already worked on, so I'll award him this one, unless he doesn't want it.
I´m on it I´ll post it in this thread when done.

[-Isapostolos-]

Epiros

There were 2 emporers on the throne of Epiros, after that the Nicaeans made them renounce the title and thus they became known as despots. Since history is only important at the start of the era in MTW, I guess the Epirot rulers should be called emporers since that’s what they called themselves at the start of the era. That would mean if Trebizond is in the game (although I begin to doubt if it’s ecomically possible and it’s existence may be weakening to the Turks) we would have 4 claiments to the Byzantine throne in the game. But I will leave the decision to Wes what title would be best for the Epirots.

1)Names of the significant kings, meaning either famous or with long reigns. 2-4 per era will be fine, and provide their birth year if it's listed;

-Emporer Michael I: Founder of the empire of Epiros. Under his rule lots of land was retaken for the empire although the credit should be given to his half brother Theodore. He died in 1215 so I imagine he was about 50-60 when he died since his father was the grandson of Alexius Comnenus.

-Emporer/prince Theodore Ducas: Succesing his half brother in 1215, Theodore captured a lot of ground including Thessaly, parts of Thrace and Macedonia and anhilated the kingdom of Thessalonica. He came close to capturing the Constantinople, but he was captured by the Bulgars and the empire split up again. He is said to have been a remarkable general, but other than that I haven’t really found any characteristics.


2)The 4 or 5 or most common forenames for Princes. I guess the names of some of the lesser-known kings would suffice;

Thomas
Nicholas
Michael
Nicephorus
John
Manuel

3)1-3 heroes for each era, with short descriptions of what they did to earn their notoriety.
These can be anyone, even females, and suggestions as to what their special traits should be are welcome, such as 4-star general, "cowardly" or "brave", - or + 2 morale, respectively, "high-level assassin" or "diplomat", etc.

I guess the only real hero of Epiros was emporer Theodore Ducas. Since I only know that he was quite a capable general but certainly not undeafetable I guess he should be a 4-star general with some kind of of virtue like “inspirering leader”.

4)A couple dozen male names, for generals
Byzantine names

5)A dozen or so female names, for princesses.
Byzantine names

I'll move on to the Latin empire.

[Highlander X]

what? take out Ireland? are you mad? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Russ Mitchell]

No, not mad: historically educated. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Pannonia, TransDanubia, Transylvania, Mazovia, Ruthenia, and Levedia complete. Will do Charnigov, add neighbor and border fixes for Levedia's neighbors (unless, Wes, you want me to do the neighbors up from scratch using the best of the old data), and then will swing southwest to Carniola and the Balkans. Very busy week on my side, though, so I don't know how much I'll get done by the time I leave town for my weekend trip ... committed to attend a seminar on Fiore dei Liberi de Premariacco... 14th-century swordplay ... fun :) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Russ Mitchell]

Oh. It just occurred to me: to solve the land-bridge and Constantinople issue, why not simply pull "Macedonia's" eastern border a bit to the right, to the other side of the bay where the beginnings of the Dardanelles? It's kludgey, yes, but so is everything else here, and it would take care of all of these issues in one fell swoop, without having to get into another round of "what ought we to include?" A simple graphics fix, and Contantinople can be as lonely and isolated as it wants... plus, it'll really bolster the Bulgarians as a threat, the way they should be for any earlier mod depicting the Bulgarian khanate in its full glory. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kaatar]

I'd like to have the Irish as a faction too but there are others who had a greater impact on history that should be included instead.

Poor Wes. So many choices. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[WesW]

Quote[/b] (Russ Mitchell @ Feb. 24 2004,17:04)]Oh. It just occurred to me: to solve the land-bridge and Constantinople issue, why not simply pull "Macedonia's" eastern border a bit to the right, to the other side of the bay where the beginnings of the Dardanelles? It's kludgey, yes, but so is everything else here, and it would take care of all of these issues in one fell swoop, without having to get into another round of "what ought we to include?" A simple graphics fix, and Contantinople can be as lonely and isolated as it wants... plus, it'll really bolster the Bulgarians as a threat, the way they should be for any earlier mod depicting the Bulgarian khanate in its full glory. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
What was exactly what I am going to do. My PSP hack went out on me for some reason, so I'm dl'ing the entire 56M trial version of 8.1 on a 28.8k connection. It just dropped about half-way through, and JASC doesn't seem to have heard of applets that let you resume your download where you got cut off. I may have to go into town and download it from the library.

I worked on the map about 3-4 hrs last night, and I finally rotated the image 10% so that it matched up with the Euratlas maps and Encarta's Atlas. NEVER, EVER ROTATE AN IMAGE WITH PSP (And yes, there is a need to shout.)
It caused all the colors along the provincial borders to bleed into each other. Thank God that I had Norton SystemWorks with its Protected Recycle Bin, or I am pretty sure that I could never have recovered the file as it looked when I began working on it last night. I also managed to recover the file as it was when I last saved it, I believe.

As for what new factions to include, I guess most of you here now were not here back in the summer, when I first laid out my goals for the mod. One of them was to have little or no rebel provinces in the game, since I believe that they screw up the AI at the start of campaigns to an extent that will astound us. So, my selections for the new factions were based upon that goal.

To start with, I mainly chose the major factions which were not included originally, like the Crusader States and the Teutonic Order.

Btw, what provinces were taken by the 4th Crusade other than Constan, with the new map? I don't think my Latin States proposal is viable because their would be no Homeland, as I define it, to recruit from. What I would do is combine these states with the Crusader States and see what happened.

I have no intention of adding an Epirus faction right now. If one of you guys wants it badly enough to come up with all the necessary stuff, then we can keep that in mind after we have gotten the beta up and running and see how it's all fitting together. I urge you to spend your time on other factions right now, and do this faction after we have everything else needed for the beta.

**The Serbian and Bulgarian factions will take up the Balkan provinces not claimed by major factions like the Hungarians and Byz.

**Sweden was ok to add because some people had asked for it, and it filled a couple of the rebel provinces in the Baltics, where there were too many, imo.
**I want the pagan peoples along the southwestern coast of the Baltic Sea represented as a weak faction which will comprise the rest of the rebel provinces in that area.
*Btw, there will not, under any circumstances, be a Norwegian faction. This was decided back about last April, when we were working on faction balance and sustainability. Denmark was too weak by itself to do anything, and too powerful with Sweden, but with Norway it was juuuuuust right.
Sorry, but were quickly slipping back into regional pride issues like we had with the map.

**I wanted the Cumans in so as to occupy the Steppe provinces not claimed by the Kievans or Novgorod/Russians, ahead of the Horde's arrival.
**I chose the Georgians because they were never conquered by anyone in this whole age, to my knowledge. They would be a strong faction defending rough terrain and occupying a strategic land link between the steppes and Asia Minor.
**The Lesser Armenians are another strong one-province faction that is located in a pivotal position on the map.

And remember, everyone, that these small factions will be available for re-emergence just like the big boys, and will be available for courting by the big boys as far as alliances. I am not giving them access to religious or diplomatic figures, and I hope I can find a way of denying them princesses as well, to cut down on the clutter when you want to watch enemy moves.

I wanted Portugal and Navarre because both were never conquered, and I think Navarre was a pretty important ally for the Spaniards when they had their backs turned to fight the Almohads. More on that later.

I included all the rebel provinces in the British Isles because I thought there would be a lot of people clamoring to play as them. The Irish were the least important, only being around for the Early era, and not connected by land to anyone else, so I can easily leave them out.



So, I guess I had better order the new factions in importance for the beta, and let's leave off discussions about who's in and who's out, just as with the provinces. And remember that, as with the provinces, this list can change after we get the mod working.

The factions needed, listed in importance:

1)Crusader States (H&L). Ideally, the kings, heroes and generals would NOT be taken from the Crusaders, but rather from the ranks of the Templars and Hospitallers who battled the Muslims in Outremer.

2)The Italians (All eras), which are going to be broken up into two factions. Just give me all the famous kings, heroes and generals of Italy, and which provinces they generally fought for, as defined by the present map. I know many changed sides, but give me their overall preference. We can start the serious debate after the beta is working. Right now I am thinking about the two factions being Venice, Verona and Lombardy versus everyone else.

3)The Teutonic Order (H&L), from the exploits of the Sword Brethren onward.

4)Swedes (All eras). There were several Swedes that frequented here a few months ago. Surely one or two of you can get together and do a good job here.

5)Cuman (E&H), there probably isn't much info out there on thses guys, so anything anyone can dig up on the peoples between the Kievans and the Urals.

6)Scots (All eras). I am sure that someone has already put a Scottish faction together. It may be in the files section here. Anyway, surely someone here can construct a decent one without too much trouble.

7)Serbians (All eras) and Bulgarians (H&L)- I have a suspicion that whomever wants one will want or can do the other, but jump in for you only want one, of course.

8)Georgians (All eras) and Lesser Armenians (E&H, maybe L)- same as with the two above.

9)Portuguese (All eras)- there should be some guys here jumping to do this one.

*)I can take the Pamplonans (Navarre) out. They may be a good province to give to either the Spanish or Aragonese, or maybe eliminate the province itself There are certainly other provinces in Iberia that were probably more important to the era.

10)Lithuanians (E&H)

11)The Baltic Pagan states (E&H, maybe L)- Prussia, Livonia, Pomerania

*)Sometime someone needs to sort out the Kievans, Novgorods and Russians properly, but that can wait for now.

Claiming and collaborating on factions:

Things were already getting disorderly, so what I want you guys to do is post in with "I want 3)The Teutonic Order."
I would prefer that everyone do this, even if they have said in earlier posts that they definitely want to do a certain faction(s).

You can claim more than one, of course, just make sure that you'll have time to do the research and get it turned in the in the next week to ten days. And wait a day or two if someone has explicitly called a faction before this post.

If someone else wants to help with the Order, for example, and/or some of the other taken factions, then he can post here and just say "I can help with 3)The Teutonic Order, too, as well as ...."
Or, he can email the first guy, or leave a PM, for you lurkers out there. After that, you'll have to wait until the person who called the faction first responds to you, and hopefully you can help him out with anything he's having problems with. If anyone who calls a faction receives such a message, please reply even if you don't need the help, as a courtesy.

And if you do collaborate on a faction, try and correspond by email, to try and limit the number of posts here.

Finsihed factions:

Finally, when you guys get everything needed for a faction, email it to me, instead of posting here.

Regarding troubles:

If you are having trouble getting part of the info needed, just post here and tell us what you need, rather than posting lists of names and such to show what you already have.

Ok, that's it for tonight, and I hope this is the last big post I have to make regarding the new factions.

[SicilianVespers]

Wes,
Would you be interested in getting historical Sicilian Surnames, Kings and Heroes? Using the default Italian surnames is completely incorrect.

Will you be keeping Sicily in the game in Late? They really should be, as they were an independent Kingdom under a younger branch of the Aragonese dynasty. When the Catalan company conquered the Duchy of Athens it became a fief of the Kingdom of Sicily, not Aragon. One of the king's sons was usually the Duke of Athens.

Since Malta is gone Late Sicily should probably have Sicily and Athens (or whatever it's name will be on the final map)

As far as the Latin Empire's provinces, I argued for this, but it fell on deaf ears.

They historically had the Kingdom of Thessalonika (the new Macedonia?), Duchy of Athens, and the Principality of Achaea in the Morea (I believe Athens and Achaea are combined on the new map). This is all in addition to Constantinople of course.

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
*Btw, there will not, under any circumstances, be a Norwegian faction. This was decided back about last April, when we were working on faction balance and sustainability. Denmark was too weak by itself to do anything, and too powerful with Sweden, but with Norway it was juuuuuust right.
Sorry, but were quickly slipping back into regional pride issues like we had with the map.


I never expected a Norwegian faction to be included, we were(and still are) a small kingdom with little international influence. However I just felt that if an Irish faction was to be included, it would be better to have Norway if there was no good reason otherwise. You clearly have a good reason though, and I agree that a balanced Denmark is more important historically.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Russ Mitchell]

I stumbled onto an article last night with a slew of Cuman names... I forgot it today, but will post it when poss...

[-Isapostolos-]

Russ, are you going to do the Cumans? If you want I can help with some books who have a reference to them. BTW the Cumans are pagan in early, but Catholic in High. I don't think anyone fancies two Cuman factions with different beliefs in two different era's, so we will need to choose what religion they should get. I think pagan would be best

You can find some info here on Cumans:
http://www.bartleby.com/65/cu/Cumans.html

BTW Wes, the Cumans our nowhere near the steps between the Kievans and the Novgorods. They lived between the Bulgaria and Kiev, and between Hungary and the Black Sea. So in the game they would occupy Wallachia, Moldavia and the new province south of Kiev.

Wes: I'm sorry for getting ahead of myself, but I'm a bit puzzled why you are reluctant to add Epiros. They were very important on the Balkan stage in the high era and were still around at the start of the late era (although their power was greatly reduced). They shouldn't be to hard to create since they are mostly akin to the Byzantines. In comparison, Georgia is on the edge of the map, has an economically weak province and is harder to implement because it needs it's own units. But Epirus is just a copy of the Byzantine faction (although they had more Latins in their army), has a better economy and has alot of influence on Balkan politics. Nicaea and Epiros had an equal chance of becoming the legitamit empire of Rome, and thus in Epiros should be regarded as an equal candidate. If this doesn't convince you, I'll shut up, but I really hope you do reconsider.


Like Sicilian Vespers said the Latin Empire occupied Macedonia, Achaea, Bithynia(the other side of the Marmara) and Thrace. I don't think it would be such a good idea to merge the Crusader states in the Levant with the latin empire. Viewing from a historical viewpoint, crusaders generally didn't really cooperate really well with each other, and this even became their downfall. Crusaders of the Latin empire didn't give a damn about their brothers in the Levant, and vice versa.

Gameplay wise, I imagine that if the crusaders get a fleet they will get rich very fast because they have the rich provinces of Antioch and Constantinople, and that's without counting Macedonia, Achaea and Tripoli. Crusader armies in the Latin empire would be financed with Levant money which ofcourse doesn't really make sense. It would be overpowering aswel, since the Byzantines, Serbians, Lesser Armenians or Bulgarians won't be able to get anywhere near the wealth of the Crusaders.

So I suggest two factions will need to be created, the Latins and the Crusaders.


BTW, Lesser Armenia occupies 2 provinces in high, Lesser Armenia and (southern) Anatolia.

[Russ Mitchell]

Wasn't planning on doing them explicitly, since I'm still hip-deep in text work, but I can if nobody wants to. The encyclopedia text is definitely lacking information here and there (to begin with, it was alliances between the Russians and the Black Cap confederacy that trimmed the Cumans' sails), but it's a good start.

(Outside of typical caveats, up to: Chernigov, Kiev, Volhynia, Lithuania, Crimea, Croatia, Serbia. May finish SE Europe after lunch today.)

[-Isapostolos-]

I might have some time to do them, but it will take a few days.

I just saw I gave the wrong link, here is the general page with several Cuman links and bits of info.

http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/97/Roman_Zakharii/gal.htm

[Eastside Character]

Is anybody doing the Kievians? If not, then I can take care of them.

Regards,
EC

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

YEEAAAAHHHHHHHH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_jumping.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_jumping.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_jumping.gif

I've been out of the Forums for a few days and WesW announces such amazing novelties http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-nice.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-pleased.gif

I'll take the Portuguese, since it's my area of expertise http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink3.gif

BTW, WesW do you need help with shield or flag graphics for factions? I might be of some assistance.

[Kaatar]

Wes, I know you don't need it but I'd be more than willing to help if you needed it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[PseRamesses]

I want 4, The Swedes.

I also would like to call upon all my fellow countrymen that has any info or suggestions to contact me at: pse@brevet.se or PM me through the forum.

[PseRamesses]

Wes,
I´m a bit uncertain of the request you made to me regarding the Swedish faction.

Significant kings:
1a. Can´t u use the kings-list I sent you or are we only going to use the most significant kings?
1b. Do u want their full name or just forename with numerals?
1c. For most kings under "early" no birthyear can be found. What do I do?
1d. Do you want v&v´s for them

Princes forenames:
2a. Do you also want them "per era" since the trends for names shifts during time?
2b. Do you need v&v´s for them?
2c. Don´t you need birth dates when they emerge?

Hero´s:
3a. Don´t you need dates when they emerge?
3b. Can women, bishops, emmessaries etc be used for heroes?
3c. Do you want v&v´s for them?

Generals names:
4a. Same as 2a under "Princes forenames"
4b. Do you want v&v´s for them?

Princesses forenames:
5a. Same as 2a under "Princes forenames"

General problem:
During the period up to 1250 when Birger became "Jarl" over Sweden the kings family-lines shifted constantly.
There where 3 major families fighting for power. Familiy X´s leader became king, then family Y´s leader killer the
X´s and then the family Z´s killed the Y´s. So how do we solve the chronology? Just pretend they where one big
happy family and make the kings "belong" to the same family/ dynasty?

Thanks,
PseRamesses

PS. 1, 2, 4 and 5 are finished just need theese Q´s answered to know how to present the info to you.
3 is under way. Gonna recruit some help for that amongst my fellow cuntrymen on the forum. DS

[WesW]

Ok, here's how things stand at the moment. Remember, for those of you who haven't checked the thread out in a few days, that my list of what is needed for a faction is in my Feb. 24th post, near the top of page three.

1)Crusader States of the Levant- not taken.

1b)Latin States of Constan and Greece- Sicilian Vespers, if you would do this one, it would be a big help. The Italians and Sicilians, which are next, can wait until after the beta is released.

2)Italians (All eras)- Sicilian Vespers.
Go back and cover what I said in my previous post about how to list the info for the kings, heroes and famous generals, since it's different than for the other factions.
Go ahead and do the Sicilians for all three eras as well.

3)Teutonic Order (H&L)- not taken

4)Swedes(All eras)- PseRamesses.
(Btw, if that email you just gave is the one you wanted me to use for contacting you, be warned that I kept getting it bounced back.)

5)Cuman (E&H)- Isopostolos, if you would like to work with Russ to put this faction together, I would certainly appreciate it.
The thing that matters here is that this faction is going to be given control of Khazar, Volga-Bulgaria, Chernigov and maybe the Crimea, in the Early and High campaigns. I don't care what you want to name the faction, I just want it to be a decent representation of the people who lived in that area of the world from 1087 to 1242.

You can go ahead and make an Epirus faction as well. We haven't gotten into who will own which provinces in which eras, so if there are enough provinces for a viable faction, I certainly have nothing against it being Epirus.

You also stated that you could do the Serbians, Bulgarians and Georgians, but only if nobody wants them. I hope it doesn't come to that, but...

6)Scots (All eras)- not taken.

6b)Welsh (E&H)- not taken.

7)Serbians (All eras)- not taken.

7b)Bulgarians (H&L)- not taken.

8)Georgians (All eras)- not taken.

8b)Lesser Armenians (E&H, maybe L)- Isopostolos, you just need to email EastSide, so he can put your stuff together and send it to me.

9)Portuguese (All eras)- Aymar de Bois Mauri, have at it. ;)

*)I think I am going to take Navarre out of the game, and use it's slot to split Portugal in half. I'll use the map you posted on page two as the guide on where to make the split.

10)Lithuanians (E&H)

11)The Baltic Pagan states (E&H, maybe L)- Prussia, Livonia, Pomerania

12)Kievans- Eastside, take it away my friend.

Kaatar, GreasePaint, the Teutonic Order, Lithuanians and Baltic Pagan states all have not been called. If you guys want to help out, maybe you could team up see what you could do with these three. They all existed in the same general area, and continuously fought each other as well, so anything you found about one of them would probably have some stuff about the others, too. If you two would agree to do this, I think we will be in fine shape overall.

This would still leave 1, 6, 7, and 8 unclaimed, but I feel pretty confident that either someone new will want to help with one or more of them, or else one of you guys already volunteering will help out with them once your current projects are done.

[Russ Mitchell]

Wes: email me about that "decent representation." It's a little complex, and you'll have to make some value calls.

But I'm primarily posting in order to note that I have only done said map provinces for early as of yet: building modifiers, etcetera, and faction info, has NOT been updated for H & L ....

[Eastside Character]

Wes,
I've emailed you a complete list for Lithuanians. Now Im doing the Kievians. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif

Regards,
EC

[Kaatar]

I'll work on the Teutonic Order.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]9)Portuguese (All eras)- Aymar de Bois Mauri, have at it. ;)

*)I think I am going to take Navarre out of the game, and use it's slot to split Portugal in half. I'll use the map you posted on page two as the guide on where to make the split.
YEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_jumping.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_jumping.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_jumping.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Here is a rework of Erebus1101's map that sheds some info:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Aymar%20de%20Bois%20Mauri%20Iberian%20Map%20MedMOD.jpg

Quote Erebus1101:
Castilla la Vieja: Burgos
Castilla la Nueva: Toledo
Kingdom of Murcia: Murcia
the rest as they are now

As for the names and heroes, I'll send you a mail tomorrow. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[SicilianVespers]

I will try to have something for you this weekend.

[Russ Mitchell]

DONE.

Wes has the map instructions, barring a couple of caveats, for:
PANNONIA
TRANSDANUBIA
TRANSYLVANIA
MAZOVIA
RUTHENIA
LEVEDIA
CHERNIGOV
KIEV
VOLHYNIA
LITHUANIA
CRIMEA
CROATIA
SERBIA
WALLACHIA
BULGARIA
EPIROS
ACHAEA
MACEDONIA
CONSTANTINOPLE

I have NOT yet dealt with Khazar (its borders need updating), because my machine is practically in a closet while my house is under repair...

Probably I'm off this thread until at least Monday, and possibly as long as Wednesday while I handle travel and stuff at the house.

-Russ

[Erebus1101]

I'm most pleased with the decision to take Navarre out, but at first I thought that it would be more correct to give its territory to the Aragonese, but after consulting some books and it seemed that the partition was correct after all. Navarre was under the rule of the kings Of Aragon only during 1094-1134 and after that they tried to maintain their Independence from both aragon and castilla with more or less success (leaning more toward Castilla to seek protection from the Aragonese).

Now it will be more difficult to play the Aragonese starting only with 2 provinces potentially (well they were rather weak military in comparison to the castillians). That will be quite a challenge.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Wes, I would like to redo the entire Aragonese faction (Names, kings etc) since I think that it is awfully done in the Original game. I would also bring some info about all the Spanish and aragonese provinces, and if i find something maybe add some Spanish heroes.


I think the capital for the Aragon should be Barcelona as it originally was. It is true that the seat of power of the Aragonese Kings was Zaragosa but when both countries were united Barcelona was the most important city without any doubt. Even since the XII century Barcelona was one of the most important ports in the Mediterranean second only to Venice and rivaling with Genoa. It was known for the quality of its shipyards and its trade was based on wool and slaves, but it also traded with silk and spices, since its trade routes stretched from Antioch and the Black See to the English channel. Without the Ports of Barcelona and many others in the Catalonian and Valencian coast, the Aragonese wouldn't have been able to do anything. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[-Isapostolos-]

Hi Wes:

Woohoo for the Epiros faction I'll send the stuff I posted here to you.

About the Cumans, I guess it would be best to call them Steppe nomads since "Cuman" origin won't be relevant to all the steppe peoples. Instead you could use Turkic names for them since most steppe peoples were of Turkic origin. If they occupy the steppe provinces, what will be done with Wallachia and Moldavia?

Maybe Wallachia can be given to Bulgaria, although I don't know what needs to be done with Moldavia.

5) Ill do the Cumans(steppe nomads), Russ can help if he wants to.

7b) I'll sign up for the Bulgarians, and if nobody wants them, I can do the Serbs aswel. For now it will be jsut Bulgarians though

I'll sort the Armenian stuff and send it east side.

[Kaatar]

Sent that e-mail, Wes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Here is something for you, WesW. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

If you're trying to make the Portuguese-specific Knightly Orders, these are the shield images of the two most important ones in the Middle Ages.


Order of Christ:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Aymar%20de%20Bois%20Mauri%20Cruz%20de%20Cristo%20Geometria.jpg

The black background is for the sake of contrast. It should be white.


Order of Avis:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Aymar%20de%20Bois%20Mauri%20Cruz%20de%20Avis.jpg

I hope to post the names and remaining info tonight. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Eastside Character]

Wes,
I sent you complete name lists for the Lesser Armenians and the Kievans. I write it just in case you didnt get them. Might be I have a wrong adress? Is the one on your site a valid one?

Regards,
EC

[SicilianVespers]

Wes,
I just emailed you the complete Latin Empire list.

Will send the rest as soon as I can...

[WesW]

http://wes.apolyton.net/LukMap.gif

Ok, here is the final beta version.
Note: If you saw it before 6:30 A.M. Eastern (11:30 Greewich, I believe), then the part regarding Friesland will be new to you.

Blame Russ if the "Six Points" intersection looks odd. ;) The reason is that the six provinces which meet there only border the two on either side as they draw down to the intersection. I'm sure it has to do with Balkan mountain passes and such that limit where you can travel to and from.
People used to the standard map, however, are used to the fact that armies can be moved between provinces if they border each other at any point. This is why I drew Savoy so as to separate Provence and Liguria all the way to the sea, even though there were no mountain passes at the time which could have been used by an army to move between them.
The House of Savoy also obtained access to the sea by taking Nice in Late. I might play around with this after we get the beta out.

Anyway, to the map...

Here is an updated list of the changes, from the initial post of this thread.

Removed (9): Finland, Brandenburg, Switzerland, Volga-Bulgaria, Pereyaslavl, Malta, Rhodes, the Sinai and Navarre.

Added (17):
Murcia, New Castile, Al-Gharb
Poitou, Auverge, Dauphine,
Savoy, Verona, Calabria,
Carniola, Pannonia, Epirus, Macedonia,
Mazovia, Ruthenia, Levedia and Gotland

This adds up to a net increase of 8, which is what we have to work with. In addition,

Re-named (8):
Naples to Apulia
Greece to Achaea
Castile to Old Castile
Toulouse to Languedoc
Genoa to Liguria
Milan to Lombardy
Carpathia to Transylvania
Hungary to TransDanubia

Note: I am using Africa's colors for the region of Finland, as well as the point of Intersection mentioned above.
I have not tested to see if two of the colors unavailable for normal provinces could be substituted for Africa's present colors. If so, it would then give us one last province to add to the game.
However, I would like to keep this possibility as an ace-in-the-hole until we have the beta released and have done considerable playtesting.

Regions of interest since the last version I posted:
1) Iberia;
2) Eastern Alps, esp. Austria;
3) the Balkans, which I alluded to earlier;
4) Asia Minor;
5) the Baltic Sea, and
6)Friesland-Flanders

1)There is simply no way to make a "correct" version of Iberia for the entire Medieval age, but I think I managed to achieve that elusive blend of historical accurracy and good gameplay.
Cordoba has access to both parts of Portugal, but not Old Castile. Whomever controls New Castile can strike every province in Iberia except for Granada and Portugal. Aragon is much larger, to better represent its influence and power, both on land and sea.
In the Early Campaign, I would give Portugal, Leon and Castile to the Spanish; Aragon and Languedoc to the Aragonese; while the Almohads get Al-Gharb, New Castile, Cordoba and Granada.

Historically, the Almoravids were the Muslim empire in control of the southern half of Iberia, plus Morocco. They were in civil unrest, however, and this allowed the Christians to consolidate their holdings while a desert people, the Almohads, defeated the Almoravid and took their holdings, plus Algeria and Valencia. Losing Al-Gharb was probably not that big of a deal to them at the time.

With the new Iberian provinces, I am thinking of reviving the idea of a Berber faction, which would hold Libya, Tunisia and Algeria in Early. They could certainly draw Almoravid power away from the Christians.

2)Eastern Alps- here I have simply re-drawn some of the boundaries around Austria, enlarging Bavaria, Lombardy, Carniola and Pannonia, while decreasing the size of Tyrolia, Austria, Bohemia.
I think that they look more historically correct now.

3)Balkans- Other than the creation of the Six Points mentioned at the top pf the post, about the only other things I did was to enlarged Macedonia to include the Gallipoli Peninsula. Thrace has been reduced to approximately the area held by Turkey today, except for the peninsula, of course.

Proposal- changing the name of the province from Constantinople to Thrace, and leaving Constan as the capital/castle of the province.

4)Asia Minor- Generally speaking, I reduced the size of the Crusader States and Nicaea, and enlarged the size of Lesser Armenia, Rum, Armenia and Syria. This is another area, like Iberia, that is impossible to create to everyone's satisfaction. You could create an entire scenario from Egypt to Hungary to Georgia and probably use 100 provinces and 20 factions.
I chose to expand Lesser Armenia to cut off Anatolia from the coast, meaning that the Turks must take a province and start a war to get any kind of trade going, though I don't think trade mattered much after the Mongols arrived, anyhow.
I expanded Armenia eastward so that Rum and Syria no longer border each other. We can probably make Syria richer to represent its increased size and trade routes. This would help somewhat with strengthening either the Turks or the Egyptians, and explain why the Crusader States put so much effort into their attempt to conquer Damascus, which ended in betrayal if I remember correctly.

5)Baltic Sea- I decided to add a couple of seas here, for a couple of reasons.
I wanted the eastern Baltic made into its own sea, so that the Novgorods or whomever could defend their coasts without threatening anyone else, such as the Danes or Swedes. They would also get a connection to Gotland and its trading markets.
In addition, most of the overland routes from the Baltics to Persia or the Black Sea started in the Gulf of Riga, with the city itself sitting at the mouth of the Daugava River.
After going up the Daugava, traders could cross overland either south to Smolensk, and down the Dnieper to Kiev, then to the Black Sea, near the Crimea and the Greek, Byzantine and, later, Genoan trading colonies located there.
Or, traders could go west, to Moscow and the Volga, and wind their way down to the Caspian Sea, and then along its shores to Persia or Central Asia.

The reason I added the Gulf of Bothnia was partly to cut off the top of the map, since it's beside Finland. but mostly because things just looked funny after I added the Gulf of Riga.
I also thought of adding another sea across from the Gulf of Riga. This one would leave off from the border of Denmark's Scandinavian Peninsula territory and connect to Gotland as well. However, since Sweden also has access to the Skagerrak Sea, it probably wouldn't add much to the game.

6) Friesland-Flanders -I remembered someone's rant about the current way things were set up, so I decided to do some research. It turned out that Flanders never seemed to control anything north of Zeeland, while at one point Friesland extended all the way to Zeeland, so I decided to change the map, also tinkering with Flanders' eastern boundary with Lorraine in addition to the changes with Saxony, and Franconia.

You might look at something like this and think that not much effort is involved, but I assure you that I spent 2-3 hours at least researching and then making the changes so things would look as accurate as possible.

Finally, I have been looking at the work that Russ has sent in, and I'll have to delve back into the Early campaign text and make notes for him, while trying to figure out how I'm going to start integrating the map into all the other files.
There are also a lot of text areas, like provincial titles, that have parts in different files due to the patches and expansion, and I am going to try and get those re-organized as well, both for me and for anyone else who might look into making their own mods to this one.

I'll make a post about the new factions next.

[SicilianVespers]

Wes,
I am just about done with the Genoese and Venetians, I should be able to send it to you tonight.

Did you get my email for the Latin Empire?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

First of all I have to say: What a fantastic work, WesW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

It just looks beautifull... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif


Quote[/b] ]1)There is simply no way to make a "correct" version of Iberia for the entire Medieval age, but I think I managed to achieve that elusive blend of historical accurracy and good gameplay.
Cordoba has access to both parts of Portugal, but not Old Castile. Whomever controls New Castile can strike every province in Iberia except for Granada and Portugal. Aragon is much larger, to better represent its influence and power, both on land and sea.
In the Early Campaign, I would give Portugal, Leon and Castile to the Spanish; Aragon and Languedoc to the Aragonese; while the Almohads get Al-Gharb, New Castile, Cordoba and Granada.
I agree. Excellent choises http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

I think you have achieved a very beautifull equilibrium in the Iberian Map. Excellent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif




Quote[/b] ]Historically, the Almoravids were the Muslim empire in control of the southern half of Iberia, plus Morocco. They were in civil unrest, however, and this allowed the Christians to consolidate their holdings while a desert people, the Almohads, defeated the Almoravid and took their holdings, plus Algeria and Valencia. Losing Al-Gharb was probably not that big of a deal to them at the time.

With the new Iberian provinces, I am thinking of reviving the idea of a Berber faction, which would hold Libya, Tunisia and Algeria in Early. They could certainly draw Almoravid power away from the Christians.
And I agree with you on the Berber faction. Let me ask you:

-Are you going to make a Almoravid (Al-Gharb, Cordoba, Granada, New Castile, Murcia, Morocco) faction and an Almohad (Berber faction with Algeria, Tunisia and Cyrenacia) in Early?

-What North African and Iberian Muslim factions would be historically accurate to show in Late?

BTW, a very busy weekend did not allowed me to finish the Portuguese Kings and Heros. I'm adding all V&V to each one. I should finish them up today. I'll try to send it as soon as possible.

[A_B]

Wes,

I really think Ireland needs to be split into two or three separate provinces - JUST KIDDING

Map looks excellent.

Do you (or anyone else) know how to make movement between two provinces possible? For example, making Wales to Ireland possible - such as Sicily to Naples? I made them neighbors in the Campmap text, and gave them border info, but they still don't border each other.

There are two numbers in the Neighbor info, and i assume it has to do with these, but i couldn't figure out what the numbers are (although they look like pixel counts right-and-down).

Thanks in advance.

[Kaatar]

Are you absolutely sure 32 factions is the limit?

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] ]11)The Baltic Pagan states (E&H, maybe L)- Prussia, Livonia, Pomerania



Ill take it.

But that wont be a homogeneous list I think. The Pomeranians were Slavic people, while the Prussians and the Livonians belonged to Baltic nations group. So the names will be a kind of a mix. Or can there be two groups? One - the Baltic Tribes of Livonia and Prussia, the other one - the Pomeranians. If there was that split Id prepare the names for both of them. Anyway what do you think about this idea Wes, and others?

Regards,
EC

[-Isapostolos-]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

Argh, I can't seem to load the map on this damned laptop of mine. Could somebody send the file to me please? I'd appreciate it alot.

Anyway your map seems to sound great from what I am reading, but seeing is believing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif.

Anyway, I haven't been able to do much about the Cumans, since I'm on vacation in Switserland, but I guess I can get the names finished in a couple of days since I brought some books with me. I hope you won't mind the delay Wes.

[WesW]

Here is a copy of my initial post regarding factions, listing what I wanted, and edited to be more clear in some areas. I think listing it again, after many of you have done a lot of the work involved, is good to refresh our memories.

Ideally, I would want:

1)Forenames of the significant kings, meaning either famous or with long reigns. 2-4 per era will be fine, and provide their birth year if it's listed;

2)The 4 or 5 or most common forenames for Princes. I guess the names of some of the lesser-known kings would suffice;

3)1-3 heroes for each era, with short descriptions of what they did to earn their notoriety.
These can be anyone, even females, and suggestions as to what their special traits should be are welcome, such as 4-star general, "cowardly" or "brave", - or + 2 morale, respectively, "high-level assassin" or "diplomat", etc.
Both forenames and sirnames are needed.

4)A couple dozen common male names for the faction, to be used to name its generals. Both forenames and sirnames are needed.

5)A dozen or so common female names, for princesses. Forenames only.

If you happen across the names of real generals or princesses, that would be nice, of course, but don't spend time searching just for them once you get enough common names.

All of this info is given in the default_heroes.txt, which is in the MTW\campmap\names folder.
I suggest that anyone remotely interested in helping out look through it, even if you don't have time to tackle one of the brand-new factions, since some of the regular major factions are woefully under-represented as far as heroes and famous kings and such.
If you do have time to tackle one or more of the new factions, please do those first, and perhaps in the meantime someone else will step in and provide for the under-represented factions. Remember that this is just for a beta, and that we can add on and otherwise improve the lists at our leisure, once we get the game working.

Note: I have run across some CA additions made to these lists in the changes text, which is another reason why I want to get everything together before we release the beta.

Here is an edited paste from the Default Heroes text, which should help explain things further.

// FAMOUS_HEROES::
// This sets up heroes for a faction.
// The forename and surname must correspond to an entry in names.txt or changes.txt.
// Date is the year that this character is born. He will be available to appear 20yrs. after this date.
// Possible types are: GENERAL, SPY, ASSASSIN, EMISSARY, BISHOP, INQUISITOR, PRIEST, MULLAH, and PRINCESS.
// Region, or province, gives the place where the character will appear, ID_LIMBO means everywhere is possible
// So, playing as the English, if you train any assassin anywhere in your kingdom after 1210, you will get Guy of Gisbourne

// ADD_FORENAMES::
// ADD_SURNAMES::
// ADD_PRINCESS::
// This creates a list of common names to be used in the game.
// You can have as many lists (factions), and as many entries in each list as you want.

Here is a copy of PseRamesses' post, which I didn't see when he initially made it, because he happened to post it after I had starting making my post, hense it wasn't in the list of previous posts when I was replying.

Anyway, he asks some good questions, so I hope that by posting my answers others will bw helped, too.


Quote[/b] ]Significant kings:
1a. Can´t u use the kings-list I sent you or are we only going to use the most significant kings?
1b. Do u want their full name or just forename with numerals?
1c. For most kings under "early" no birthyear can be found. What do I do?
1d. Do you want v&v´s for them

a)I only need the most significant kings, because reigns in the game are much longer than they were in reality.
b)I just need their forename and numeral
c)then just give me when they reigned.
d)I only need V&V's for famous kings. I'm actually not sure how this part of the game works, or more likely I had it figured out a few months ago and can't quite recall it now.
It may be that, if a prince is picked with the same name as a famous king, then there is a chance that he will have the V&V's listed when he becomes king.


Quote[/b] ]Princes forenames:
2a. Do you also want them "per era" since the trends for names shifts during time?
2b. Do you need v&v´s for them?
2c. Don´t you need birth dates when they emerge?

The only thing needed for the princes is some names to randonly pick when the queen gives birth.
There is nothing in the game to sort them by eras, and they have no V&V's, since they don't represent an actual individual, and so they don't need birthdates, either.

If there are princes who gained notoriety, either good or bad, but never became kings, then you can list them in the faction's heroes section.

Hero´s:
3a. Don´t you need dates when they emerge?
3b. Can women, bishops, emmessaries etc be used for heroes?
3c. Do you want v&v´s for them?

a)The way all this works for heroes is that I can type in a birth date, and the game will make those characters available to appear in the game 20 yrs. after that date. Thus, if you can't find anything official as far as births, let me know what they did and approximately when they did it, and I can just enter in something reasonable and things will work out.
b)Yes, anyone can be used. Give me the individual's name, profession, gender if female, what they did and when they did it.
c)Ahhh, yeah, they wouldn't be described as heroes if they didn't have something unique about them.

Remember that they can also be cowards, traitors, or any other type of villian as well, and I think that you should put those people in the list in order to provide a fair representation of the faction, even if it's your own.


Quote[/b] ]Generals names:
4a. Same as 2a under "Princes forenames"
4b. Do you want v&v´s for them?

No, I just need some common names, both forenames and sirnames, for people of this faction. There is nothing to separate them by eras, and, like princes, they do not represent a particular individual, so no V&V's are attached to them.



Quote[/b] ]Princesses forenames:
5a. Same as 2a under "Princes forenames"

Same answers as for 2a. ;) (Only forenames needed)


General problem:
During the period up to 1250 when Birger became "Jarl" over Sweden the kings family-lines shifted constantly.
There where 3 major families fighting for power. Familiy X´s leader became king, then family Y´s leader killer the
X´s and then the family Z´s killed the Y´s. So how do we solve the chronology? Just pretend they where one big
happy family and make the kings "belong" to the same family/ dynasty?

Thanks,
PseRamesses

[WesW]

Sorry I didn't get to your last question, Pse. I had to get off the internet suddenly.

Your question about the Early kings of Sweden fits in with Eastside's questions regarding the Baltic states.

In both cases, just go back to what I initially said that I wanted. Look through whatever history sources that you can find about the area, pick out whatever famous or notable individuals you run across, and note what they were famous for. Don't worry about things like tribal continuity when any info at all is scarce, since we just can't be that precise with the time that we have. It also wouldn't add anything to the game except for someone who's an expert on obscure Duchys.
If you have trouble finding enough common names and such, just note which major faction(s) were closest culturally to your minor one.
See Eastside's email at the bottom of this post about how to present your info.

And remember guys, this isn't for a term paper.
Eastside's Baltic faction is little, very little in fact, more than the rebels who have always held these territories at the start of the Early game, so please don't put too much time into them. And by too much, I mean more than a couple hours at most. If you just can't find much, that's perfectly ok for the minor or one-province factions.
Post here with what you weren't able to find, so that perhaps someone else can help out. If no one does within a day or so, send in what you have, and I'll handle the rest.

The ideal that I initially posted was for major new factions like the Crusader States, Sweden, and maybe Bulgaria or Serbia, and for further developing existing factions, like the Novgorods.
I apologize for not being more clear as to the different standards for the various factions.

Fortunately, Eastside sent in the perfect faction info for Lithuania, meaning that he did everything right as far as the quality and quantity of information for a faction of moderate significance. He also presented it in a clear and precise fashion in his email.

I have pasted that email below, since it's a perfect model for everyone to use.


Now, back to the factions list....

I have received several emails from you guys, and I am sorry to say that I have not been able to go through any of them yet until now. The last work on the map, making all these long posts, and getting my stuff together about how to take this enormous amount of info, from units to the map, to the factions, to rearranging the way that all this stuff will be complied and entered into the texts...
I have been spending 12 to 16 hrs. every other day on this for the past week, but I can really start to see it coming together now.

There have been times when I have been a little disappointed with the amount of work that the Medmod users have been willing to devote to making it better, but you guys have definitely exceeded expectations with the map and the factions. I know that a lot of you have been doing research on your own before posting to push for one thing or another, and it shows in the of times that I have ended up agreeing with you guys and making those suggestions. I'm really not this much of a push-over normally. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

To address a few questions from the emails:

Eastside, you threw me off by emailing from a different account, but I got 'em. Everything you have sent in has been A+ work. The only thing that would want is the year(s) of the event(s) which made them famous, and this is optional, meaning that if you don't have it handy, don't worry about it.
As for the Poles, feel free to dig into them, or anyone else that you care to research.

Vespers, you didn't include the V&V's for the Heroes you sent in, nor did you include when they were born, or the year(s) in which the event(s) occurred which made them (in)famous. Either one would give me enough info to get by, but both would be preferable.
It would also help if you would mark the kings' significance like Eastside did with his *** system. Any birthdates that you run across would be helpful as well, just like for the heroes.

Aymar de Bois Mauri wrote:
And I agree with you on the Berber faction. Let me ask you:

-Are you going to make a Almoravid (Al-Gharb, Cordoba, Granada, New Castile, Murcia, Morocco) faction and an Almohad (Berber faction with Algeria, Tunisia and Cyrenacia) in Early?

I am seriously thinking about it right now.

-What North African and Iberian Muslim factions would be historically accurate to show in Late?

That's a little too far for me to spend time upon right now.

-BTW, a very busy weekend did not allowed me to finish the Portuguese Kings and Heros. I'm adding all V&V to each one. I should finish them up today. I'll try to send it as soon as possible.

That's fine.

And everyone, look through the Heroes txt. to see how the heroes are described and V&V's allotted. For example, in the Rebel heroes, there is this guy:
"Dtienne Marcel". He can appear in Iie de France if the provence has a revolt after 1336, has the moneygrabber vice, and is described thusly: leader of the Paris revolution 1355-58.
You may not be able to find out that much info about guys from the smaller factions, but again, don't worry too much about it. CA determined that the Poles only had one man in the entire Medieval age who qualified as a hero.

For everyone:
I hope these last two posts have helped solve most of your remaining problems or uncertainties. If you still have questions or problems though, post them here and hopefully we can get them answered quickly.
Researching takes time, and this stuff doen't actually have to be done for the beta, but please make sure that you have some time set aside to work on this, or else you'll forget about it completely.
I have more than I can do for weeks as it is, so your help is crucial in getting the mod out anytime soon.

For example, all the new provinces and factions will need new governor and ruler titles, as well as office titles. This will take a lot of research and debate just by itself. And there will be other things after this, like faction write-ups such as those shown in the campaign and faction selection screens, so please don't relax just because it's not absolutely needed for the beta

Kaatar, 32 is definitely the hard-coded limit for factions in each campaign, meaning that we can have more than that by switching factions in and out of different campaigns.

A_B, make sure that you have the neighbors and borders info for both of the provinces. The numbers in the borders section are no longer used, so that's not the problem.

Here is Eastside's email for Lithuania, and I urge you guys to imitate his style as much as possible. Just remember that heroes can be other types of people besides kings.


"years of reign
------------------------------------------------------------

Kernius 1040-???? first rather mithical ruler of Lithuania

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Steksys * 1201-1214
Zivinbutas 1215-1218
Rimgaudas * 1219-1235 (the legendary first Grand Duke of Lithuania and founder of a dynasty)
Mindaugas *** 1236-1263 (the only one who was crowned King, creator of ithuanian state)
Treniota 1264-1265
Vaisalgas 1266-1267
Shvarno 1268-1269
Traidenis * 1270-1281
Daumantas 1282-1285
Butigeidis 1286-1291
Butvydas 1292-1294
Vytenis * 1295-1316
Gediminas *** 1316-1341 (a very significant ruler)
Jaunutis 1341-1345 (the least important of all, was dethroned, not include?)
Algirdas *** 1345-1377
Kestutis *** (the same times as Algirdas, controlled southern Lithuania)
Jogaila *** 1377-1392 (son of Algirdas)
Vytautas *** 1392-1430 (son of Kestutis) (born in 1350, was known as Vytautas the Great)

* significant rulers
*** most important rulers
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Early 1087 ?????????
High 1205 Steksys I age 50 (born around 1155)
Late 1321 Gediminas Iage 46 (born around 1275)

//lithuanian forenames
--------------------
Steksys
Mindaugas
Gediminas
Algirdas
Kestutis
Vytautas
Jogaila

Shvarno
Daumantas
Traidenis
Vytenis
Tautginas
Visvaldas
Daugvilas
Ceidvilas
Geidas
Tautenis
Algelis
Kantibutas
Dravenis
Minegal
Gedigold
Mikolajunas
Jasonis
Ivonaitis
Skirgaile
Mitautas
Taviras
Valdas
Gintautas
Jovirdas
Lasukas
Gostautas

//lithuanian surnames
-------------------
Rimgaudaitis ***
is Tauras *
is Apuole *
is Rietavas *
is Vilniaus *
is Kernave *
is Trakai *
is Kaunas *
is Dabsiai *
is Aukstadvaris *
is Narkunai *
is Tushemlya *
is Sauginiai *
Vytenitis
Vytautaitis
Jaunuaitis
Jurate
Dravenio
Shvarnitis
Treiniota
Daumantas
Reksnys
Beragis
Aukstakojis
Ingeborga
Gintautaitis
Ivaniuitis
Butwydas
Budigeitis
Vaisalgas
the Curonian
the Sembian
the Aistian
the Samogitian
Leitis
Vatijaitis
Kernius
Zivinbutas
Valgirdas
Gintautas sunnas
Visvaldas sunnas
Daugvilas sunnas
Ceidvilas sunnas
Geidas sunnas
Tautenis sunnas
Algelis sunnas
Kantibutas sunnas
Minegal sunnas
Mitautas sunnas
Taviras sunnas
Valdas sunnas
Jovirdas sunnas
Lasukas sunnas

*** dynasty name (although there was no one fixed dynastic name at that time,
this one is derived from the name of the legendary first Grand Duke of Lithuania - Rimgaudas)

* noble name, "is" is something like "von" in german names (eg. von Jungingen)

//princesses
----------

Martha
Elena
Grazina
Aldona
Ausra
Ruta
Saule
Laima
Gierde
Linas
Gintare
Roze
Svajone

//possible heroes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

Note: the multiple entries for piety were due to the fact that Lithuania changed religions through the ages, so don't let that confuse you. No loyalty is given because these guys were kings.

Mindaugas (1189 - 1263)
-----------------------
Command ****
Dread *****
Piety-pagan *
-orthodox ***
-catholic ******
Acumen *****

Atheits (if pagan) Zealot (if catholic) if orthodox - any not connected with religion virtue like 'Brave' will do
Deep Thinker
-----------------------

Gediminas (1275 - 1340)
-----------------------
Command ***
Dread ******
Piety-pagan *****
-orthodox *
-catholic *
Acumen ******

Skilled Defender

-----------------------

Algirdas (1296 - 1377)
-----------------------
Command ****
Dread *****
Piety-pagan ***
-orthodox **
-catholic *
Acumen ***

Great Warrior
Scant Mercy
-----------------------

Jogaila (1351 - 1434)
-----------------------
Command ***
Dread ****
Piety-pagan *
-orthodox ***
-catholic ******
Acumen ******

Natural Leader
Educated
-----------------------

Vytautas (1350 - 1430)
-----------------------
Command *****
Dread *****
Piety-pagan ***
-orthodox ***
-catholic ***
Acumen ****

Utterly Brave
Mighty Warrior
-----------------------
Regards,
EC"

[Condottiere]

Being as it is my first post, I would say that you've done an excellent job with the map. Macedonia - with the addition of Gallipoli - now has more or less the outline of the Kingdom of Thessaloniki in 1214. I also like what you did with Asia Minor as regards to Nicea's border, and Anatolia and Rum being expanded westward.

These being said, without seeming impertinent, I would like to offer the following suggestions:

Any chance you could expand slightly Thrace/Constaninople north and north-west and possibly Macedonia to the north? I ask because Bulgaria, seems to me, to be a little bloated in appearance - more so than it was in history. Thrace could be expanded westward into Macedonia to occupy the northern inland half, while the latter still retains Gallipoli. The peninsular part of Thrace could be made a separate province named Constaninople with its borders mirroring the Anastasian Walls: http://www.arch.uiuc.edu/research/rgouster/

Lesser or Cilician Armenia is too far west of its historical boundary. In Men-At-Arms Series 195, I've found a province called Tekke(possibly a Turkish name?) that occupies, in an arc, the northern part of the Pamphylian Gulf and encompasses the southern peninsular(the bulge) part of the in game province of Nicea. This territory could be called Pamphylia, a former Byzantine province. Bordering Anatolia in the north, Nicea in the north and north-west and Lesser Armenia in the east, the area would be of some strategic value: acting as a buffer zone for any power that controls Nicea or Lesser Armenia.

[metatron]

Quote[/b] (Condottiere @ Mar. 01 2004,19:51)]The peninsular part of Thrace could be made a separate province named Constaninople with its borders mirroring the Anastasian Walls:
Believe me, we've asked... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[SicilianVespers]

The Latin Empire of Romania, Genoese, Venetian, and Sicilians are all done, I will send them all to you when I add the requested hero data.

[SicilianVespers]

I have a question for the Oltremare Crusader states experts.

Was the County of Edessa originally Armenian? I vaguely remember a Latin Crusader marrying into the ruling house there, and inheriting the County.

Was it originally part of the Cilician Armenian Kingdom?

[PseRamesses]

Wes,
Here´s the completion of the Swedish factions list. I´ve not rated kings and heroes with 7 command or 3 accumen just "high", "low" etc. It´s up to you to make the final adjustments for gameplay puroses.

Swedish kingslist:
Inge I, 1079-1105 AD
Filip, 1105-1118
Inge II, 1119-1125?
Ragnvald Knaphövde, ????-1125
Magnus I, ?1125-1130
Sverker I, 1130-1156
Erik IX, 1156-1160
Magnus II, 1160-1161
Karl VII, 1161-1167
Knut I, 1167-1195
Sverker II, 1195-1208
Erik X, 1208-1216
Johan I, 1216-1222
Erik X, 1222-1229, 1234-1250
(Knut II Holmgersson, 1229-1234)
Valdemar I, 1250-1275
Magnus II, 1275-1290
Birger I, 1290-1318
Magnus III, 1319-1364
Albrecht I, 1364-1389
Margareta I, 1389-1412
Erik XIII, 1412-1440
Kristofer I, 1440-1448
Karl VIII, 1448-1457


Significant Kings:

Inge I, born 1055, ruled 1079-1105 AD, died 1118.
Was a religous devotee, founded monastaries, appointed bishops and embarked on crusade upon the Finns. A good commander with high influence.

Sverker I, born ?, ruled 1130-1156, died 1156.
High piety, high accumen, high influence and a very good administrator.

Knut I, born 1150, ruled 1167-1195, died 1196
A good commander, most dreaded and highly influencial. One of medieval Swedens most able kings.

Erik I, born 1216, ruled 1222-(1229, 1234)-1250, died 1250
Weak king with low influence, low piety, low influence and no military experince with fairly good administrative skills. Long reign though.

Valdemar I, born 1240, ruled 1250-1275, died 1302
No military man. Was actually asleep in his tent when his ursurping brother Magnus defeated his army in 1275. Had many mistresses and atleast one incestual relation with a kin. High piety though and a pilgrim voyage to Jerusalem.

Magnus II, born 1240, ruled 1275-1290, died 1290.
High piety, Excellent statesman, very high accumen and a great military leader both defensively and as an attacker.

Magnus III, born 1316, ruled 1319-1364, died 1374.
Lawman, adulteror, high piety.

Margareta I, born 1353, ruled1389-1412, died 1412.
Queen in the Kalmarunion: Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Extreeme influence, excellent statesman with very high accumen but no military experience.

Erik XIII, born 1382, ruled 1412-1440, died 1459.
High piety and a good commander.


Princesses forenames:

Katarina
Ingeborg
Kristina
Margareta
Rikissa
Ingegerd
Agnes
Magdalena
Anna
Cecilia
Birgitta
Ebba
Maud
Blanka


Princes forenames:

Erik
Sverker
Valdemar
Magnus
Knut
Jon
Joar
Karl
Burislev
Sune
Filip
Johan
Bengt
Gregers
Birger
Håkan
Olof


Generals:

Forenames:

Inge
Filip
Magnus
Sverker
Erik
Knut
Magnus
Valdemar
Erik
Johan
Ture

Surnames:

Sverkersson
Ingesson
Nilsson
Karlsson
Eriksson
Henriksson
Birgersson
Magnusson
Bonde
Knutsson
Valdemarsson


Heroe´s:

Early Period:

Folke (the fat) Ingevaldsson, born 1100, died ?
Jarl in Östergötland. The Folkungadynastys founding father. The familys crest is still a part of the Swedish Royal Crest. No info regarding command, accumen. Piety etc. Prefered use for unit: MILITARY

Jedward Bonde, born around 1100? died? Jarl and a knight templar. Very pious and highly heroic. Crusaded against the Finns. His son, Erik I (the holy), became king of Upland in 1150 and Swedish king in 1156. MILITARY

Birger Brosa Bengtsson, born 1161, died 1202.
Jarl over Svealand and Götaland from 1174. Was realted to both the Swedish and Norwegian royal house which made him very influencial. Very carismatic leader (Brosa=the smiling one) and a true statesman. EMISSARY

Sune Folkesson, born ?, died 1247.
Lawman, a knight templar and good commander. MILITARY

High period:

Birger Jarl Magnusson, born 1210, died 1266.
Great military leader with high piety. A great stateman, most dreaded and with high accumen. Also known as Swedens founding father and the founder of Stockholm. MILITARY

Torgil Knutsson, born ?, died 1306.
Highly skilled and dreaded commander and attacker that conquered Karelen and Ladoga. MILITARY

Late period:

Mathias Kettilmundsson, born ?, died ?
During the early 1300 he was duke Erik´s closest man and played a key role in the rebellion against King Birger. In 1318-1319 he was a chancellor. When Magnus became king in 1319 Mathias Kettilmundsson became chancellor of Sweden . In 1322 he reigned and became the duke of Finland and managed the defence of the unruly border towards Novgorod until his deth in 1326. MILITARY

Bo Jonsson Grip, born 1330, died 1386.
Jarl of Sweden and archbishop. Was the leader of the rebellion that brought down King Magnus and appointed Albrecht as the new king of Sweden. Low loyalty towards both older and newer king. Was supposedly the richest man in Swedens history and owned more than a third of the country. Most dreaded and influencial statesman. Most generous but deformed with a humpback and an ugly appearence. MILITARY/ BISHOP

Engelbrekt Engelbrektsson, born 1390, died 1436.
Lord in Dalarna, duke in Örebro county. Had extensive military experience. Started a rebellion against the king and conquered the whole country but was assasinated on his way to a peace meeting with the king. Very influencial and good accumen. MILITARY

Bengt Jönsson Oxenstierna, born 1395, died 1450.
Lawman, noble with good administrative skills with high accumen. BISHOP/ MILITARY

Krister Nilsson Vasa, born 1365, died 1442.
Extreme loyalty and a good military commander with fairly high accumen.


Feel free to complement this list in anyway you like if you have any significant changes or additions.

[Condottiere]

Quote[/b] (SicilianVespers @ Mar. 02 2004,09:13)]I have a question for the Oltremare Crusader states experts.

Was the County of Edessa originally Armenian? I vaguely remember a Latin Crusader marrying into the ruling house there, and inheriting the County.

Was it originally part of the Cilician Armenian Kingdom?
It was Byzantine territory up until Manzikert in 1071. Due to the debacle Anatolia became a void to be filled by Turks, Armenians, Kurds and Arabs as well as former mercenaries such as the Normans. The Armenian Philaretus, a former Byzantine general, seized Antioch in 1079. He went on to annex Edessa. He commanded an army of 20,000 of which 8,000, the elite, were Normans. He appears to have been a shrewd politician. His empire came to an end in 1085, when the Seljuks captured Antioch after defeating his Arab allies in Mosul and Aleppo. Edessa fell in 1087 by treachery. It retained a level of autonomy under Armenian governors until it was annexed in the First Crusade becoming the County of Edessa.

[SicilianVespers]

Has anyone claimed the Oltremare Crusaders?

[Condottiere]

Regarding Medieval names, if anyone's interested, check out this site: Medieval Names Archive (http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/)

[Mouzafphaerre]

Quote[/b] (Condottiere @ Mar. 02 2004,02:51)]...In Men-At-Arms Series 195, I've found a province called Tekke(possibly a Turkish name?) that occupies, in an arc, the northern part of the Pamphylian Gulf...
-
"Teke" (Male goat). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif A minor Turkish "barony" (so to speak) around 1300s, which vanished as the Ottomans rose. There were many of them between the collapse of the Seljuk ("Rûm") Saltanate and the unification of Asia Minor under the Ottomans in the 15th century.

My congratulations, guys This looks like is going to be a great mod. I can't wait for the completion. I would offer my hand for any help but will have to deal with serious real life troubles in the upcoming weeks. So...

Let me still offer some salt for the soup:

For monarch/ruler names almost in all over the world in all times, with brief background, you may refer here:

http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/HistoryFiles.htm

Best
_

[Mouzafphaerre]

Quote[/b] (Condottiere @ Mar. 03 2004,01:08)]Regarding Medieval names, if anyone's interested, check out this site: Medieval Names Archive (http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/)
-
Nice website, which links to here (http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-names.html) with Khazar names. :) Cumans, like Khazars, were a Turkic people, who adopted Catholicanisme (I would take it rather than pagan for accuracy but for gameplay you decide; maybe Catholi religion AND pagan culture if possible?). Names would be just the same. (Omit possible Khazar names with Toraic reference, if any.)

[Also PMed to Russ Mitchell]

Codex Comanicus is what remains from Cumans; a book dealing with their dialect of Turkish, religious texts etc. I don't have access to it; if any of you do, via a library or university, it would prove helpful.

Good luck people http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
_

[PseRamesses]

Condottiere and Mouzafphaerre,
Great links, thanks a mill http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Highlander X]

hmm, anything i can do to help? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Condottiore's names site is great. Here is the page with Byzantine names:

http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/byzantine/names.html

A little plea:

Would you mind restoring the Greek spelling (eg. Komnenos) from Latinized (eg. Comnenus) and English() ones? (eg. Ioannes, not John.)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
_

[Kaatar]

*throws Highlander X a pile of paper and runs*

just kidding ;) Highlander, do you any Teutonic Order/Knights heroes?

[Condottiere]

http://www.hostkingdom.net/Chivalry.html

The above page lists the names of the Grand Masters of the Teutonic Knights until the present day. The rest of the site: http://www.hostkingdom.net/regindex.html might have some usefulness.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hi, WesW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I was finally able to send you an e-mail with the specific information of the Portuguese faction. Hope it is to your liking.

[BobTheTerrible]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

Hello everyone, I haven't posted in a while, but I have been following the topics lately. A apologize from not having been able to express my "Get well soon" in the "Wes is hospitalized" thread. So I will tell you now, I hope you are feeling much better Wes

As you may remember, I asked how to change units costs and stuff in MedMod. I doubled the upkeep and train costs fro units. My goal was to make less of the unit training jump that happened at the beginning of the game, and create less battles but more decisive ones, and more successfull rebellions (and also since big battles run slow on my comp, to lower the amount of big battles that take place). For the most part though, it failed. It seems MedMod's AI works best when it has plenty of units to "throw away;" the more units it has, the more agressive it becomes. Although it did lead to an interesting experience when the horde showed up.

My new quest is now to improve the rebels. As Rio Benegerio (ok that's spelled wrong) did in his mod, and as suggested in this thread, I gave the sahara as much income as I could. (Interesting, giving it income that went into the next tab actually ended being up negative in the game, along with negative people following Judaism, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif ) Anyway, with that being said, I tested the game, and nothing different happened. The rebels ever built any units, and yes, .matteosartori. revealed the Sahara to be making a huge profit. So I am wondering whether the rebels have access to build any units on the map. And if they don't, if it would be possible to make it so they do. (Maybe you knew this all along, making this post irrevelent)

Anyway, keep up the good work Wes.

/ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[WesW]

Quote[/b] (Clownmite @ Mar. 07 2004,19:36)]http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

Hello everyone, I haven't posted in a while, but I have been following the topics lately. A apologize from not having been able to express my "Get well soon" in the "Wes is hospitalized" thread. So I will tell you now, I hope you are feeling much better Wes

My new quest is now to improve the rebels. As Rio Benegerio (ok that's spelled wrong) did in his mod, and as suggested in this thread, I gave the sahara as much income as I could. (Interesting, giving it income that went into the next tab actually ended being up negative in the game, along with negative people following Judaism, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif ) Anyway, with that being said, I tested the game, and nothing different happened. The rebels ever built any units, and yes, .matteosartori. revealed the Sahara to be making a huge profit. So I am wondering whether the rebels have access to build any units on the map. And if they don't, if it would be possible to make it so they do. (Maybe you knew this all along, making this post irrevelent)

Anyway, keep up the good work Wes.

/ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif
No, this is as good of a time as ever for the "Get well soon" thought, since I have been totally laid out since last Wednesday morning. Tonight was the first time I had even turned my computer on since then, and if you know me, that means I had one foot in the hospital.
Thankfully, things are looking up now. I just had multiple, new things hit me at once, which aggravated all the old stuff and created a real nightmare for about three days there. One of my doctors gave me something to relax me, and I barely got out of bed from Friday afternoon to this morning. Some of the best sleep I had since I was a child, and I needed it, as it turned out.

As for your playtesting, Clownmite, I managed to pull out the piece of paper where I have all the code words, and...... well, I don't even have .matteosartori. listed, though I remember using it a lot. What I would recommend for all testing is to rt.-click your desktop shortcut, and under Properties, Target, change it to:

"C:\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe" -ian

Provided, of course, that you have the exe installed to this same directory. I don't know which guy from CA Ian was, but he must have been one of the main playtesters or somesuch.

Note: You can also use -loyalty:xxx, in conjunction which -ian to have the AI keep provincial loyalty at this number when you let it handle that part of the game.
Ex.: -ian -loyalty:141

Once you have entered the -ian extension, you can either start or load an existing game, and have all kinds of powers. All you have to do is press the key in the quotation marks. Pressing the Spacebar, I believe, lets you regain control of a faction if you have all of them over to the AI. See below:

The ones I use most are the "F5" key, "a" for autorun, "g" for god-mode, "#" to let the AI take over your faction. Pressing Shift when the AI controls your faction makes it play out the battles instead of auto-computing, but I may be wrong about exactly which keys and when you have to press them.

The most powerful ones for playtesting and such, however, are the commands which toggle control of the factions to you. Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to view more than the first 20 factions declared in the campaign text, but it may be that we can work around this when we get to playtesting.
To control factions 1-0, in which the Rebels must be declared first, and thus be faction (1), simply hold down the CTRL or the Shift keys, plus one of the numbers along the top of your keyboard.
This gives you control of the factions, which means you can see what they are building, their finances, etc., etc.


Factions
Now, onto the factions. And please note that I was going to start organizing the emails and such when I came down sick, so please forgvie me if I leave out credit for anything, and especially tell me if you have sent me something that I don't have credited below.
I also hope the links provided in the last few posts above this one will be a big help.

I have been just blown away by the work you guys have sent in, and the speed with which you have done it. I have detailed everything below, but mainly we just need one more round of work, and this part of the mod will be done.
The sooner you guys want to get this stuff to me, the faster the mod will be to completion, but anytime in the next cuople of weeks will be alright, as I know how things come up.

Here is an updated paste of the list I made on Feb. 26th, with the finished factions first.

Latin States, Italians and Sicilians- Finished by Sicilian Vespers.

Swedes- Finished by PseRamesses.
(Btw, all your emails are downloaded twice from my server. Just thought you would like to know.)
Also, if you want to add to the serious lack of prince names and such for the Danes, I'm sure a lot of players would thank you for it. I have been getting complaints about the lack of Danish common names ever since I started this mod.

Epirus- Finished by Isopostolos.

Lesser Armenians- Finished by Eastside and Isopostolos.

Kievans and Lithuanians- Finished by Eastside.

Portuguese- Aymar de Bois Mauri,I have notreceived the Portuguese mesage from you. Try and send it again, to wesw@hiwaay.net , and if I don't get it this time, just paste it in here.

Teutonic Order
I have overlooked who sent in the Teutonic Order, but they are done well enough, except for heroes. So, if anyone knows of or happens across any significant heroes or personalities while researching other factions, or historical battles with the Order, such as who was leading the Order when Nevsky defeated them, please send them to me.

Actually, I have been thinking, and perhaps the terms "notable" or "influencial" or "famous" personalities might be a better term than "heroes" in some instances, since legendary spies or assassins would fit this category just as well as famous generals.

I would really like for the two Crusader factions to be major players in the game for an era or two, since Prussia went on to be a major power in later times, and the Middle Eastern Crusades continue to have an impact upon current world events.

Eastside, if you would take a look into this, you would probably have more success than most anyone else. You also mentioned wanting to work on the Balkan Tribes and Poland, who is about as poorly done as the Danes or any major faction in the game. Anything you want to contribute will make the mod that much better.

Steppe tribes, and Balkans. I have just sent an email to Russ and Isopostolos, asking them to tackle this part of the map.

For the steppe tribe, I want them faction to have a good assortment of troops, which I have already laid out, so that it could be a great faction for the player to try, with defeating the Horde and all that. Otherwise I just want a "real" faction occupying those provinces instead of independent, weak rebels, in order to keep the Rus peoples from expanding too easily, or the Byzantines from spending all their energy up there when it should be spent closer to home.

1)Crusader States of the Levant- Vespers, no one has claimed them, and I would love for you to handle it. Your work to date has been awesome.

Georgians (All eras)- not taken. I think this could be a fun faction for someone who wanted to take the time to dig into them. What little I have come across regarding their history in this period of time has been quite interesting.

Scots (All eras)- not taken.

Welsh (E&H)- not taken.

So, if we can get through one more round of research, with Eastside handling Central Europe, Russ and Iso handling Southeastern Europe, and Vespers handling the Crusader States, that should about finish up this part of the mod.

Palace titles
And remember, we need titles for all the new factions, like the Cathedral names, Admirals, Master of the Horse and so-forth, so if you guys come across any of this, make note of it, and if some of you who haven't joined in yet thinks that they may able to help here, because they know of a special book or website, then you can be a great help.
Up until now, I have had to think things up based upon my limited knowledge, or most often, just make up something. I am referring to the palace titles here:

AddOffice:: FN_BYZANTINE royal_palace "Chamberlain of the Palace"
AddOffice:: FN_BYZANTINE constables_palace "Commander of the Stables"
AddOffice:: FN_BYZANTINE marshals_palace "Commander of the Army"
AddOffice:: FN_BYZANTINE Chancellory "Chancellor of the Palace"
AddOffice:: FN_BYZANTINE admiralty "Commander of the Fleet"
AddOffice:: FN_BYZANTINE cathedral "Patriarch of Constantinople"


Muslim factions-
I would like to make the game more historically accurate with the rise and fall of the various Muslim factions during this time in history. Due to Quokka's great efforts, the names of their units have been greatly improved, and if there are any Muslim historians who would like to see other changes made, now would be the time to do so. A man recently sent me a correct list of Turkish names, saying that most of CA's were Arabic.

I also have a feeling that the heroes for the Muslim factions are poorly done. Here is a paste of the names and comments from CA regarding the Turkish Heroes:

FAMOUS_HEROES:: FN_TURKISH 5
"Hasan-e","Sabbah", //Nazari leader, could be rebel based on Turkish/Iraq border
"Imad","al-Din Zengi", //atabeg of Musul 1127 on
"Qara","Timurtash", //very much a best guess about this bloke
"Qutb","al-Din Aibak", //"Pole Star of the Faith"; Turkish viceroy in India; needn't have ended up there
"Gazi","Evrenos", //very much a best guess about this bloke

I would like faction descriptions telling of the Almoravids, the rise and fall of the Almohads, the various Turkish tribes, and the story of the Fatamid Califate, the Ayyubids and the Sultanate of Egypt.

Then, there is the matter of the Muslim princesses. Another poster here sent me a list, and I had them all set up before I had to re-format my harddrive. Now, I have the names, but I don't know which are Turkish and which are Arab. The list is below.

> "Acelya"
> "Adara"
> "Aida"
> "Aludra"
> "Amani"
> "Amber"
> "Beyza"
> "Ceren"
> "Fadime"
> "Farah"
> "Fatimah"
> "Haifa"
> "Halimah"
> "Imran"
> "Jala'"
> "Karida"
> "Latifah"
> "Layla"
> "Leyla"
> "Lu'lu'"
> "Malika"
> "Mariam"
> "Melisa"
> "Melodi"
> "May"
> "Nadia"
> "Nazli"
> "Nisan"
> "Nuriye"
> "Rana"
> "Rashida"
> "Selma"
> "Siren"
> "Verda"
> "Yasemin"
> "Yasmine"

[SicilianVespers]

Wes,
I have already started working on the Oltremare Crusaders, but I probably won't be able to seriously look at it until the weekend.

Regarding the Russian Steppe, I believe the Cumans should historically occupy the lands held later by the Mongols. The Cumans were only restricted to Moldavia and Wallachia after the Mongols arrived.

I believe the Pechenegs were in Moldavia & Wallachia in Early.

The Rus & Lithuanians in the north, and the Cumans, Mongols, & Georgians in the south should fill Russia up pretty well.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hi, WesW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Sorry to hear about your health problems. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad.gif

Hope you have left them behind and won't need to worry about them anymore.


As for the mail, I don't understand why you haven't recieved it, but I've resend it to the wesw@hiwaay.net adress. I hope you get it this time around.


There are a couple things I would like to ask or comment about the MOD:

1-If Switzerland is no longer a region in the new map, how will you use the Swiss faction and units (SH, SP and SAP)?

2-Regarding the capital of Al-Gharb, there were several designations in several forms of Arab, all meaning the same:

-Chelb
-Shilb
-Yelb
-Xelb
-Xelbe

Take your pick... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

3-Regarding the Almoravids (in arabic Al-Murabitin) and Almohads (in arabic Al-Muwahid). As you know, they weren't exactly two separate empires, but two tribes fighting for power within the same empire, difering in certain religious interpretations of the Coram. However, I think it is a good aproximation to make them separate factions. Why? Because they originated from different regions and were really different people. Regarding units, there is something that still bugs me with CA's aproach: As you've seen above, Murabitin Infantry should be a exclusive Almoravid unit and Muwahid Foot Soldiers shoud be an exclusive Almohad unit. If that's too restrictive, maybe both of them can be produced by both factions, but with specific cost advantages for each one of the originators. They shouldn't ever be produced by Egyptians or Turks.

4-Regarding Almohad Urban Militia: another incorrect designation by CA. AUM should be read as Andalusian Urban Militia. They were essencially militias formed from the populations of the cities of the Taifas (the small Iberian Muslim Kingdoms formed after the fall of the Kalifate of Cordoba in 1031). The Taifas lasted until the Almoravid invasion in 1086, but the militias lasted longer, used by their North African lords. Andalucians were known to fight with a lot more armour than their North African couterparts and like BKB has in his MOD, they had a good strike cavalry (Andalucian Cavalry). You could use a weaker version of Armenian Heavy Cavalry to represent them. Both units should be trainable only by Muslim factions and only in the Iberian Peninsula. From Early period on.

5-Trade: Are you going to block passage in the Hercules Strait? Is that necessary or realistic? Couldn't you just unable Muslims to build ships in Europe?

Thanks in advance for your comments... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Ivan Bajlo]

No Bosnia? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Seriously Croatia and Serbia look way to odd, at lest border between them should be moved east to today's Danube/Drina rivers.

Historically Croatia & Serbia provinces should be split up:

Dalmatia - center of medieval Croatian state, rich Dalmatian cities (which only acknowledged Croatian rule and often took protection of Venice) provided much of the income.

Slavonia - part of Panonian valley between Drava and Sava rivers, in medieval times heavily wooded area with many swamps mostly mosquitoes and bandits lived there and prayed on poor crusaders and pilgrims going to holy land.

Croatia - northern and central Croatia were today's capital Zagreb is located

Bosnia - mountain ranges and poor roads made it virtually isolated from rest of the world allowing it to separate from Croatia and form independent state.

Herzegovina - area which often changed hands between Bosnian and Croatian nobles who themselves even more often switched loyalty and even called in Ottomans to help them.

Zeta - covering Montenegro

Kosovo and Raska

Ragusa - http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ok, maybe we need bigger map

Anyway if someone has extra time to make at lest some of these provinces for new version of my mod I would be very grateful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The problem is:

The number of provinces is limited. (blame CA for that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-argue.gif )

WesW is trying to reach a balance that trully can reflect the Middle Ages most important warfare aspects. He would be happy if there was no limit, but there is one, and he has to make concessions somewhere. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

[Xenophon]

Wow, things have really moved on since I last checked up on the Mod. Considering how much time I have spent playing the different MedMod versions, I think it is about time that I contributed in some way.

The first thing I'd like to contribute is a term software engineers use and that is Scope Creep.

Scope Creep is when people change the specification for a piece of software while that software is being developed. Adding features, changing features ... each suggestion is a little tweek but it all adds up. Every little change might be important to someone but you cannot let every little "improvement" allow you to become distracted from your goal.

In my experience of writing software (about 25 years), Scope Creep will kill you every time. I could tell you some stories ... but they are long, boring and have no punch lines Basically, I have seen projects involving talented and dedicated workers destroyed because little changes were sneaked in at the wrong time. It is of great importance that nobody forgets what everyone here, and especially Wes himself, is trying to achieve. I.e. to produce a Mod that we can all enjoy playing.

If folk see something that just has to be in the mod, and that this involves changing something crucial, such as the map or the faction list, then remember that trying to force that change in could delay the production of the Mod. Let's be honest here, we want to play this Mod and not just talk about it. If getting this Mod into a Beta release means ommitting one of your ideas then consider this your own personal sacrifice for the good of the Mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

If during the Beta play testing we see that something has to change to make the game work (and remember it is only a game, albeit a damned good one) then that is the time to discuss critical change. A new Beta can then be produced and we go around again if necessary. None of this can happen if we do not help make the first Beta happen.

Right, that's my veteran campaigner speech out the way, lets do some work. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

I notice that no-one has claimed the Scots or the Welsh. I might not be celtic myself (Brit-Viking I think) but I know enough of the freckly chaps to put together the necessary text for these minor factions.

I also notice that the Irish seem to have fallen off the Things To Do list. Does this mean that the Irish have been done already?

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Mar. 10 2004,02:27)]Swedes- Finished by PseRamesses.
(Btw, all your emails are downloaded twice from my server. Just thought you would like to know.)
Also, if you want to add to the serious lack of prince names and such for the Danes, I'm sure a lot of players would thank you for it. I have been getting complaints about the lack of Danish common names ever since I started this mod.
Wes,
I actually have two adresses to you: wes@apolyton.net and wesw@hiwaay.net so that´s why you get two mails from me. Have deleted the last one so it won´t happen again, thanks

I´ll look into the Danish princes names. Should I research generals, princesses, kings etc too???

[Ivan Bajlo]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Mar. 11 2004,18:34)]WesW is trying to reach a balance that trully can reflect the Middle Ages most important warfare aspects. He would be happy if there was no limit, but there is one, and he has to make concessions somewhere. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif
That is why I only suggested to move only Croatia-Serbia border to more historical then current fifty-fifty split.

I already have mod that I want to expand in that direction so no need for Wes to do that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[PseRamesses]

Wes,
I´ve put together the Danish princes forenames and also some surnames. The forenames can be used togheter with the
surnames for generals. Haven´t found any princesses though and I guess that you already have a kingslist for the Danes?

Forenames (in no particular order):
Harald
Hårek
Gorm
Svein
Knut
Hardeknut
Magnus
Olav
Erik
Nikolas
Svend
Valdemar
Christoffer
Hans
Niels
Sigurd
Ragnar

Surnames (in no particular order):
Sigfredsson
Godfredsson
Gormsson
Blåtann
Tjugeskjegg
Svendsson
Knutsson
Olavsson
Hardråde
Sveinsson
Eiegod
Eriksson
Valdemarsson
Holmgaard
Plogpenning
Klipping
Menved

Let me know if you´ll need something else

PseRamesses

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]That is why I only suggested to move only Croatia-Serbia border to more historical then current fifty-fifty split.

I already have mod that I want to expand in that direction so no need for Wes to do that.
Then just PM or e-mail him sugesting that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Eastside Character]

Wes,

I have all the names fof Baltic faction. Only I dont know who would have to be their ruler for every era. And as this faction doesnt really represent a real historical faction, Ive decided to use pomeranian names for royals. I did it because the Pomeranians had the strongest state organization of all those three baltic nations.

I also have only two heroes/famous individuals, but for a minor faction like this, I think I'll get some 3 more and thats it. I'm going to send you this Baltic Tribes list with reworked list for the Polish. You'll have it very soon, maybe even tomorrow.

Regards,
EC

[WesW]

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ Mar. 13 2004,14:09)]Wes,

I have all the names fof Baltic faction. Only I dont know who would have to be their ruler for every era. And as this faction doesnt really represent a real historical faction, Ive decided to use pomeranian names for royals. I did it because the Pomeranians had the strongest state organization of all those three baltic nations.

I also have only two heroes/famous individuals, but for a minor faction like this, I think I'll get some 3 more and thats it. I'm going to send you this Baltic Tribes list with reworked list for the Polish. You'll have it very soon, maybe even tomorrow.

Regards,
EC
That's great, David. Don't worry about this faction if you have trouble finding anything.

Xenophon, I know exactly what you mean about scope creep, or mission creep as they call it in the military (Vietnam, anyone?). I always try and watch out for that, and that's why I try and start my mods small, and solve those first few things before getting into other areas of the game.
This version has been a victim of scope creep to some extent, but that's because new opportunities, like the new strategic map, opened up as I was making the already planned expansions from version three to four.

Everyone, I think this thread has served its purpose, so I am going to start one, maybe two, new ones on the next stages of the mod's development very soon. I have been doing so much writing the last four days that I can't see straight, but I have finally gotten commitments from good people, who have already turned in outstanding work, to continue their efforts, even if I had to plead (and I did).

And in my own research I have about figured out how I can put it all together, and by that I mean the whole immense juggernaught that this mod has become, this piece of work that is going to become legendary among Total War fans, and in which you all will deserve some credit for, in a way that is so slick and smooth that it will have almost no conlfict with anything else.

In short, we are in fourth, about to shift into fifth, and there's nothing but clear highway between us and the finish line.
I don't want to throw any dates out, because there are still delays that could happen, or people could back out of crucial elements that they had agreed to take care of for me, which has happened more than once here. Even if everything goes smoothly, I imagine it will still be a couple of weeks at least before this puppy is ready for the first playtesting, and who knows how long after that until it's ready for public release.

All that may souond like a long way off, but speaking as the only guy who knows how the entire eight-course feast is progressing, I can almost taste it already.
And it tastes gooooooooooooooooooooooooood

[BDC]

Hope it all comes together http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Looking forward to this.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
This mod will set a new ground, a new standard for the aging game. If I ever dare making a mod, it will at least have a "Wes compatible" edition.

About the "scope creep"...

You are the masters here but IMHO, minor tweaks can be made later once the foundation is there. This is the beta of v.4; there'll (most hopefully) be the full release, then 4.x versions and so on.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
_

[Russ Mitchell]

Ivan:

Believe me, I feel your pain: my bitching to Wes in email about how badly the Balkans was done was one of the things that got a lot of these map rocks tumbling down the slope. CA's province limits have REALLY screwed us... mapwise, the graphics aren't my bailiwick...