Defending is too easy

[Lacker]

So I have just clobbered the CPU the past million defense attempts and I'm wondering if it's supposed to be more difficult.

I'm playing as the Brits and I just sit on a hill side, use my longbowmen to wipe out their generals unit, and that settles it. They almost always flee. They'll bring up reinforcments but after a few vollies from an elevated position from my archers, they scurry away and I rout them with my horse.

Why does the CPU (even in expert) Lead with their general? and... Is it possible to fight a battle where the CPU reinforcements actually DO something?

Thanks

A

[chilling]

Play a different faction.

[The Wizard]

Personally, defending is easier than attacking because I seem to have more time for a good deployment.

As an apparent result, I usually win my defends and sometimes screw up royally (pun intended) in an attack. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif



~Wiz

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

I havent often seen the AI lead with the general on attack unless I have significantly fewer numbers overall (though on the actual battlefield there is near parity).

But the way you describe it - sitting on a hill and blasting away with long bows - imagine you attacking such a position - you would be screwed Adn the AI isnt going to do better than you. Play Almos in High or late, you have no decent spears and no good cav, lot harder than with English LBs.

[MiniKiller]

u on easy? thats the only level where they just walk up and let u shoot.

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya sez...

When shooting arrows from hill, the steeper the hill, the less youz will hit. Call it a bug or a feature, but units do not lead their targets when they aim. So, even though they tend to shoot in back of marching foe, when foe march UPHILL at youz, youz will just shoot grass.

So... easier defend flat ground, Vanya sez.

This not Shoggy, where youz can win vs warrior monks using only peasants with an arm tied behind their arse as long as your peasants be charging down the hill, lad

GAH

[Yoko Kono]

bring back shoggy

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Lacker @ Feb. 17 2004,14:55)]So I have just clobbered the CPU the past million defense attempts and I'm wondering if it's supposed to be more difficult.

I'm playing as the Brits and I just sit on a hill side, use my longbowmen to wipe out their generals unit, and that settles it. They almost always flee. They'll bring up reinforcments but after a few vollies from an elevated position from my archers, they scurry away and I rout them with my horse.

Why does the CPU (even in expert) Lead with their general? and... Is it possible to fight a battle where the CPU reinforcements actually DO something?

Thanks

A
Wait until you're forced to fight 6000 good men lead by a 8-star general (with morale boost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) that is alone in his unit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You'll go from http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[econ21]

The AI leading with their generals was what ruined Shoggy for me ("kamichaze daimyos", I think it was referred to). After a few battles, I would have unintentionally decapitated rival factions and the game would be very dull. However, I have not noticed it with MTW. More often I see the AI hang back with their general, then charge him in at a critical point. They usually don't die unless I try to kill them and I usually let them live to avoid a boring game.

If you are targeting his general with your longbows in order to kill him, well you are just getting what you would expect from this tactic. Leave him alone and the AI will give you a better fight.

Of course, it was a legitimate historical tactic in those days (and even now, ask Saddam) to go for the generals - was it the Ottomans who planned battles around charging for the leader's standard? But killing them with concentrated missile fire sounds a little cheesy and seems self-defeating in your case (you want a fun game, right?).

[Bob the Insane]

Are you playing with the Viking expansion and patch??

I am and I don't see quite the same issue, I think it was a behaviour that was modified at some point.

Now the enemy general still advances with his other units, but usually stays at the back unless he can charge into some archers or the back of some other units.. Pretty sneaky really.. This is on Hard...

[gaijinalways]

Of course terrain will make a difference. As earlier mentioned, try attacking with the situations reversed. I have generally found defending easier of course, but it is sometimes difficult when you are drastically outnumbered and outclassed either in armor class, attack, and/or valor.

Also, not every battle finds you with great terrain or in a good starting position. Sometimes the best terrain on the map is already taken

[Lacker]

I guess I understand WHY they retreat, but I don't understand why they lead with the Generals unit. I'm Playing on expert and I've seen this in nearly every situation (numbers be damned)

As a side note, does anyone else think it's kinda silly how (in most cases) the minute the general dies almost EVERYONE from his army, no matter where they are the minute he falls, will turn and run?

What in the middle of a tangle with my clans men, some Nubian Spearmen will get a "general died on the other side of this god forsaken hill, lets get the hell out of here pass it on..." from the Ghulam Bodygards? I guess there could be a horn they blow when the general dies but WHY would you do that? I'd keep it hush hush. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[MiniKiller]

none of those 3 every happen to me on normal let alone expert.

I've only seen a general lead battle on easy, and most of the time he is behind one or two units.

That does sound silly how when the general dies everyone will run, but it rarely happens to me. But you have to take in all the outside info. how tired are ur men how many left, how many men the other guys have. so if u htink about it, it isnt silly. what would u do if u saw ur general die before ue eyes, hell if he cant beat em what makes u think u can? see my point?

[Lacker]

I totally see that point, but the problem is, I've seen units on the opposite side of a hill side, or in a clump of trees or something turn and run... A friend of mine suggested that maybe they heard the other troops routing and even though they couldn't see them they took off, but it's all so instantaneous.

And while I'm gripeing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif , has anyone ever seen the general die and the CPU reinforcements lead a coordinated attack after that? I've had one or two skirmishes with reinforcements but never a coordinated assault that in any way threatened me. I do tend to run routers off with my horse, which I'm sure doesn't do much for the Moral of those being pulled up but still... it makes huge battles kinda dull when all I have to do is fight off the first wave, kill the general and I'll win no matter what the odds.

I wonder if my game is messed up, I've seen these things on every difficulty level and with every faction I've played. (Brittish, Italian, German)

[lancer63]

Haven't seen a general lead an uphill charge since...wow v1.1. That's a long time ago.
But I agree that defending comes easier than attacking. And the defender generally has the advantage in RL. But I have been defeated under ideal defensive conditions other than bridge defense. That is a blow to my ego. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Lacker @ Feb. 18 2004,11:05)]And while I'm gripeing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif , has anyone ever seen the general die and the CPU reinforcements lead a coordinated attack after that? I've had one or two skirmishes with reinforcements but never a coordinated assault that in any way threatened me. I do tend to run routers off with my horse, which I'm sure doesn't do much for the Moral of those being pulled up but still... it makes huge battles kinda dull when all I have to do is fight off the first wave, kill the general and I'll win no matter what the odds.

I wonder if my game is messed up, I've seen these things on every difficulty level and with every faction I've played. (Brittish, Italian, German)

I've seen a coordinated attack after the general was killed. Yesterday I had battle as the Russians vs the Aragonese (They are big in this campaign and deployed myself on a hill. The comp attacked me three times from both sides, with decent coordination. The map was like this.
From west to east
X _ H _

X = enemy summon-place
_ = enemy attack-path
H = my hill
Yes he walked with a large force outside my hill to deploy himself to the otheer side of the hill.
Unfortunately it was against my 8-star general so it was hardly a challenge after the first wave. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

On the other hand was the first wave surprisingly tough. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif He had only a 2-star but all units except 2 was Swiss Pikemen or CS and they all refused to rout. They fought literally to the last man several times and I took less than 30 prisoners out of 1000+. He was close to breaking my lines on one place and I was forced to use my bulgarian brigands in melee only to keep it holding. (17 suvivors out of 120)

The computer can put up a challenge after a killed general if you don't have a 6+ star general and you're a little bit short on reinforcements. Even those urban militia causes some damage if your archers are out of arrows and your cav is exhausted (=some melee).
But I admit if you survived the first wave and killed/captured the general, it's often quite easy.

If you can kill the general in my earlier example then you're very lucky. Good luck chasing him down. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Kristaps]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

Yes, very rarely (I think twice), I have seen the AI put up a reasonable fight after the first wave has been fought off regardless of what numbers they have in reinforcements...

For me, the hardest to fight off in terms of reinforcements are horse archer armies... They just seem to keep coming, and coming, and coming... The others usually show up on the map just for a second before fleeing :)

So, yes, when the program says the AI is attacking you with 6000 men against your 1000 it's actually about 1000 against 1000 on the field... And... if the AI has artillery, they WILL deploy it... which means the odds are likely to be in player's favor on the battlefield...

Of course, there is the fatigue factor - the player's units will be less efficient after the initial fight. However, reinforcements march onto the field already rather tired... (In my opinion, they should reach the battlefield in the same state of fitness as the original 16 units: those also had to march to the field somehow...) and since the AI's reinforcements are disorganized: the player can enjoy slaughtering them :)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Crazy Duke]

I'm playing on the expert for the last one year, and saw many times enemy general lead the army, especially going uphill and it is a cavalry, mostly royal knights.

Usually I play with Spanish, England, Aragon, Sicily, Egypt.

In the game when enemy general is killed, it's normally to his army to route, but if there are some elite unit, they will not run back easier, no matter I'm better on the field. Especially with Golden Horde, Byzantines, Suisse and Egypt when they have their elite units.

[gaijinalways]

Subsequent waves are not always easy to deal with. Of course it depends on your general, but I have won battles where I killed the enemy general, the AI did not completely rout, and sometimes my general routed Later attack waves were possible and you had competing initiatives on the battlefield depending on the area. On expert in my experience, you often can't chase the AI off the field when he has plenty of reinforcements. I have sometimes dealt out a lot of punishment on the first wave only to find the second wave was actually stronger and sometimes more aggressive (you sometimes have far less ammo and maybe lost some missile troops in the first wave).

[Random Ronin]

With such powerful archers, the longbow, then defense is obviously going to be easier, but if you are playing more "typical" factions, then you are going to find defense much more interesting.

For me, I am a Frenchman, or at least I prefer to play them. The dreaded Longbow has been mostly an amusing form of knight fodder for me, as my grand armee of knights and skilled infantry just eat them up for dinner, but at often heavier than preferred losses (But I think anything less than 10 - 1 ratio is bad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif so my standards are a bit high)and in offense, I am dreaded by all my foes (no less than half my generals earned an "attack-only" bonus, where my generals gain some stars when they are attacking, not defending) and my influence rating remains top-notch purely on virtue of my potent capacity to make those who are not nice to me, especially the fat old pope, dead or without armies. My only limitation being the difficulty in building up a navy to allow me to transport troops over the vast tracks of water (3 years to make a row-boat? What the F***??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif).
As the French, I have only one real method of defense. Use the advantage of deployment to better place my knights to launch their offensive thrusts, just like I attack, for the French simply have no real method of holding ground, as their archers are only average, spears are terribly limited, and swordsmen/axemen have their limitations as well.

[katank]

You must really be playing 1.1 or easy.

generals in VI rarely leads but is good at flanking and delivering rear attacks that can cause your line to crumble.

The Golden Horde really doesn't rout after genral's death.
I can remember epic battles in Kiev while I killed their general and the horde just keeps on coming.

Thank god that there was a bridge or I might have been toast.

It was funny when I finally invaded khazar. My halbs were so pumped up with valor that they just marched across the field and hit the reinforcements as they came in.

Don't you mess with my valour 14 halberdiers or my V10 pavise arbs LOL

[Demequis]

Quick, easy fix:

MedMod (http://wes.apolyton.net/)

[Pitt_Slayer]

defending is easier BUT if you want to become good learn to attack

[The_Emperor]

I have seen the AI lead with its general on Expert in VI.

I had a couple of major fights against the Egyptians in one campaign, and there I was camped out ona hill with all my Byz Inf, Cav and Trebi Archers.

Then as the enemy army marched up to meet me, the Sultan went out in front... All my archers targeted him and reduced his unit dramatically in size.

When the main charge came he was among the first casualties... the rest of his army suddenly changed strategy and decided to confuse the enemy by running away.


Quote[/b] ]defending is easier BUT if you want to become good learn to attack

Exactly attacking is harder than defending.

Always remember that Attacking wins battles, but defending wins wars

[The Tuffen]

In my aragonese campaign my aim is usually to capture the geneneral (or kill him) and i've known peasants to still fight for a while after he's been captured/killed.

[katank]

i think it's a -8 morale for first few seconds and then -2 afterwards.

I would sometimes target exclusively the general too. Like Vanya suggested, select all your units and double click on the enemy general.

however, you should also try to quickly target several enemy units after the general falls. I find that quick even suicidal frontal charges by cavalry can break the enemy quickly and hopefully tip off a chain rout.

[AqConsul]

You are right...def is easy on hills. Thus, for a challenge, simply make a map on flat land. So both sides are evenly matched and the game will be more challenging.

Consul

[nick_maxell]

Quote[/b] (Lacker @ Feb. 18 2004,10:52)]I guess I understand WHY they retreat, but I don't understand why they lead with the Generals unit. I'm Playing on expert and I've seen this in nearly every situation (numbers be damned)

As a side note, does anyone else think it's kinda silly how (in most cases) the minute the general dies almost EVERYONE from his army, no matter where they are the minute he falls, will turn and run?

What in the middle of a tangle with my clans men, some Nubian Spearmen will get a "general died on the other side of this god forsaken hill, lets get the hell out of here pass it on..." from the Ghulam Bodygards? I guess there could be a horn they blow when the general dies but WHY would you do that? I'd keep it hush hush. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif
Hi Lacker,


they run because the death of general gives a shortlived -8 penalty on morale, which changes to a -2 one - forgot how long it takes but there is a thread on morale somewhere here. They also loose any morale boost he might give with V&V and command - that atop a -8 can be hefty. If you are close to your end of the map you will see some of the higher morale units rally if they are not low on morale for other reasons and you don t persue.
For the "hush hush" part - I agree - I read somewhere here that unit morale is boosted the closer their commander is - I don t know if thats really true but they could implement the same for morale loss - ie the farther away the unit the less affected from death of commander.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

nick

[katank]

nick_maxell is right, the -8 penalty is 5 sec. I believe so you better have some crazed charging done to maximize it.

the distance from general is that +1 morale for every star if 75m or less from general. otherwise, it's every 2 stars.

This can cause a nice stiff penalty so maximize it to break them ASAP.

[nightcrawlerblue]

I have to agree that defense is very easy. I was playing with the Spanish and I was outnumbered 1000 to 700 and beat them bad. They had 500 losses while I only had 100. I never even defeated the general but with the huge mountain I was on they couldn't beat me. I beat most of their units with my 3-4 Spanish Jinettes then used spearmen and bowmen to finish the job and make them rout.