Favorite unit

[Sasaki Kojiro]

For me it is definatly Cavalry Archers...

Nothing beats sending them around the flank of your enemy and shooting up his hon6 nods...or hiding them behind a small hill and sniping a musket unit...harassing your opponent and luring his cavalry after them to be destroyed...they have too many uses to be listed here, today I had my 3 ca units kill 420 enemy men http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif


What is your favorite unit and why?

[Ithaskar Fëarindel]

All of them?

Hmm, if not then probably Naginata. 2-4 ranks deep, hold formation, keep them central and let other units flank. Core of my army...

[Togakure]

Um, I like ashigarus cuz they just run away and throw a sake party instead of fight. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Seriously, I don't really have a "favorite" unit from a practical standpoint, but I agree with Mimesaka--Cav Archers are the most interesting unit to use because of their vesatility. Ranged weapon, speed ... and in the hands of someone who knows how to use them well, a MAJOR pain in the arse (MIMESAKA, KANSUKE ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif).

You shoulda never published those replays Magyar Khan-san ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif.

My favorite unit in concept in the Battlefield Ninja (my name, etc.).

[AggonyDuck]

Naginata Cavalry by far...... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
They've served me way too well in both my SP and MP games, always tend to get over 100 kills per battle when playing online, so lets just say that they serve me damn fine... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[DeadRunner]

That is hard mate
i Like them all
all of them was give me victories and defeats.

Archer cav is most versatil like Shinano said they are a unit for many jobs.
Can i vote all ??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
maybe yari ashigaru in campaings are my early back bone in my armiesAnd comp always perfer to run them face a mass atack of ashigaru

[makkyo]

using my ninjas to kill the enemy general before the main fighting has begun is extremely amusing. the enemy begins to waver like crazy if they don't run http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kansuke]

Naginata Cavalry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Althoug I favour a few units.

[Orda Khan]

Mongol Light Cav

......Orda

[Seven.the.Hun]

hmm, well a fav...i'd simply say heavy cavalry because they are the strongest, and warrior monks for infantry...
but i build different armies with different clans really, those pesky cavalry archers are indeed versatile and useful for any clan...
and with shimazu i'm notorious for turning kyushu into a nodachi and kensai assembly line...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[Quessa]

Sarurai Archers, nothing beats the feeling when you pour a few volleys of arrows in the enemy armies and then charge down hill.

[Mithrandir]

havent played STW in months http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I have to get myself to reinstall it again :).

I always liked Nag cav best, why ? Because I like heavy cav best, but seeing how nag cav is easier to produce they were more numerous http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

My fav clan was the one with the cheap archers ~:o

*routs from STW vets who want to take my head for not knowing every name


was it Hojo ?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Uesugi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Togakure]

Gah ... Hojo ... GAH

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Yeah Mithrandir, git yer butt online and play with us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[ichi]

Cav archers. I remember when, early in a game, about 12 units of cav archers shot the h# out of my infantry and there was nothing I could do but die. I thought, I gotta get me some of those.

ichi

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi guys
I voted SamArchers because Lord Uesugi loves them.
If you are on hilly terrain in defense they just rock. And I absolutely love the deadliness (?) of them. Compared to MTW these are real Archers.
Of course, If you mount them they should be even more deadly, but it's difficult to control them. I also have no MP experience, so what do I know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Cheers

[Seven.the.Hun]

oh yes... and battlefield ninja...if there are alot of these, be ready for casualties...they are even more annoying and deadly in great #s... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[spmetla]

For me it has to be Yari Cavalry. Fast enough to catch those pesky Horse Archers and absolutely beautiful to watch in a loose formation chasing down a routed enemy. Not too good for close combat but that's alright with me.

[Togakure]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ Feb. 24 2004,22:11)]Hi guys
I voted SamArchers because Lord Uesugi loves them.
If you are on hilly terrain in defense they just rock. And I absolutely love the deadliness (?) of them. Compared to MTW these are real Archers.
Of course, If you mount them they should be even more deadly, but it's difficult to control them. I also have no MP experience, so what do I know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Cheers
Hi there R'as al Ghul http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif . Well then, what are you waiting for? Git yer butt online and play with us

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi there R'as al Ghul . Well then, what are you waiting for? Git yer butt online and play with us
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif
Thank you very much for the kind invitation.
May I inquire when the Lords usually do meet in the online Teahouse?
At what time and day (christian Mediterranian time) would it be most suitable to join you?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

P.S.: Is the server still online? Will the Log-In via EA.play work? What do I have to look out for?

[Brutal DLX]

Didn't the Imagawa clan get a discount on archers?
Anyway, I liked the Korean skirmishers, and our plain old samurai archers. Muskets are not honorable for a true Samurai http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[R'as al Ghul]

@Brutal_DLX

Nope It was Ninjas for Imagawa.
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kansuke]

Howl,

The server is working fine, "logging in" hangs on some pc's but just keep trying, we are in the STW/MI/WE EA server. A good time to come online is around 8pm GMT, lately around 15 peeps there.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Also make sure you have patch v1.02. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[R'as al Ghul]

I'm on my way guys.
If EA would send me the confirmation of registration, now that would be nice... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif ...still waiting
Well, sooner or later....
Till then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kansuke]

Hi,

They rarely send confirmation, just try to log-in m8.

[Cazbol]

I'm the weirdo that voted arqubusiers, but I really mean it. It's actually the same in MTW. Watching how the enemy gets demoralised is just such a blast to watch. I prefer the arqubusiers to muskets because I don't have to turn christian to get them and I get them fairly early.

[Ithaskar Fëarindel]

Plus, I must admit the sound that the guns make is great. Position two guns opposite, and listen as the distant ones fire, then yours... does give a better atmosphere.

[Nowake]

Nowake chooses Naginata Cav .. they are tough enough to engage any oponent. With them and Cav Arch you have all the cavalry you need.

[Kansuke]

Must admit, yari sams are a unit in my top 3 and a very widely used troops.

Kans.

[Aelwyn]

I like Cav archers, but I voted Kensai. I love seeing an 8 foot tall guy going in to a crowd and chopping them all up. Although, I just played a battle and had 120 kills with 1 sam archer, so maybe that should be my favorite unit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Togakure]

I'll second that on the Yari Samurai, Kansuke-san. My newest 10K army for 1.02 incorporates 4 h7a1 Ysams, and they chew through most 10K 1.02 No Dachi and Monks like butter. And Cav ... hehe, well I'm sure you can imagine ... .

Now some peeps are probably wondering ... how the hell can ya afford h7a1 Ysams and still have a functional army ... well, that's the tricky part. Come and play with/against me and then reference your handy-dandy log file reader http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Off-Topic: Been really enjoying all the new faces in the STW/MI foyer lately http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif . I hope more of ya will come and join us for some games. STW/MI can be quite refreshing after a boggy spell of SnailTW ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif.

[Kansuke]

Yes Toga-san.

I think I know the army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, works nice.

Kansuke. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[SwordsMaster]

Kensai.
I just love the feeling when my valor 5 kensai (2 of them) just stand on a bridge, and the whole enemy army tries to get through and they cant....great feeling.Even better when your Heavy cav, crosses the river using another bridge and hits them in the rear.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

Really depends on the used stats and situation. Cavalry archers is what I voted. I've once used 15 of them in a teamgame. But I normally use about 2 of them. The other units have great uses too.

[Puzz3D]

I don't have a favorite unit.

BTW, H7 YS is just plain wrong, and illustrates the problem with playing at 10k. We used to play STW at 5k. Eliminate guns, weapon upgrades and armor upgrades, all three of which were bugged by Creative Asssembly in WE/MI, and you can play at 5k once again.

[Orda Khan]

Yes Yuuki ........I was astounded when I read that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

.........Orda

[Togakure]

So then, h7 YS is an example of the imbalance inherent in 1.02? That is why you feel it is "wrong?"

They are so expensive that you cannot afford to bring monks or no dachi with them. The one army config I use them in has no monks or no dachi--the 4 h7 YS comprise the only h2h2 infantry in the army. Their high cost forces the use of cheap units in other areas--h2 muskets and h0-1 ca--4 each of these, so the army is by no means a super army, and quite difficult to manage actually (8 fast cav and 8 slow inf). I lose with the army often enough, and I am no longer a novice player, so I don't think it's particularly unfair to use it. It does force other players to approach my army differently than they would a "stock" army, which is part of why I like it.

They are "legal" in common 1.02 games, and many have been following suit having seen my army's effectiveness and are now bringing h7 (or better) YS to counter mine. I know that that you, Puzz, and you Orda, are strong proponents of 1.03 and 1.05, and hence I understand why the two of you would be prone to comment as you have. You are are also both versed in the stats and helped to develop them. Please, at your convenience, share with us/me more information about why you feel these are "wrong."

Thanks for your comments. They surprised me--both your positions and the tone.

[Togakure]

Oh and Orda, was the http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif really necessary? All "comments" like that do is reinforce the perception that you and certain other vets of a certain other clan are jaded with an elitist attitude--that you have little respect for the attempts of new players to be creative within the realm of commonly accepted game rules.

Come and play against the army. I doubt that it will dominate any of you elite players. Other vets have lost a few games to it at first, but they just adjusted their armies and tactics, and now beat it quite often. Almost any army can be beaten--it just requires some creative thought in army design and application on the field. I hardly think this army constitutes a problem like the superashi or monk rush armies ... .

[Togakure]

Thinking about it from a historical perspective: isn't it possible that an elite group of yari samurai could defeat average no dachi or yamabushi in combat? Not the norm perhaps, but entirely possible.

Their combat prowess still doesn't protect them against archer, cavalry archer, and musket/arquebus ranged fire ... so they are still quite vulnerable--just not as vulnerable to an equal amount of typical h2h units. Because of the 4 max rule, my 4 YS are usually outnumbered by opponent infantry. With effective h2h flanking they are usually defeated unless I am able to use muskets and all cav effectively.

After thinking about your positions, I've concluded that the high cost and 4 max rule limit the use of h7 or better Ysams effectively. 4 (h7, h7w1, h7a1) Ysams cost almost 5000K--that's half the cost of a typical 1.02 army spent on 4 units. The other 12 units will necessarily have to be cheap. Ranged units still rip these YS to shreds, and as they are most often outnumbered by opponent no dachi, monks and ysams, a good player should be able to overcome their high honor by using effective tactics--softening them up with ranged fire and then flanking with both h2h and cav.

Side note: This army was developed specifically to defeat a returning vet from the old days who typically takes 12 units, 4 of them h8-9 Ysams. I'd have never considered it had it not been for the effecetiveness of this guy's 12 unit army. Since the introduction of my army however, he has not been able to defeat me.

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

Simply blame another one for anything that's 'wrong'.

Are there wrongs in STW WE? Yes there are. But more oversights than a reason to blame anyone for wrecking the game.

Are there wrongs in STW WE? No, it's a great game. Just make sure you play at the right settings with the other people in your game to keep it great (isn't that true for anything in life?). Give, take and have a good time. What's right? You and the other players decide for a given game.


To answer the question about the 'imbalance' of the H7 YSam:

H7 Ysam 16 combatpoints 8 anticav points and (mostly) cancels frontal charge, 16 morale 1076 koku.

H6 Nod 15 combatpoints 0 anticav 20 morale 1152 koku.

The 4 morale difference isn't of much relevance at this level, the Ysam is a bit stronger, cheaper (almost allows purchase of extra Weapon) and has extra cav combat which the Nod has not. There are favourable differences for the Nod however: faster and more charge. And it does have more morale, which means that you could push it just a little further; a mans breathe is the difference between life and death.

What you could say about using such units, is that 'correct' unit match ups on the battlefield are less important: the H7 YSam will handle most of them (wins or is defeated slowly). Good, wrong? Depends what you and the other players in your game want.

My personal feeling is that it's a more relaxing way to play, I do it at times: 4 muskets, 7 heavily upgraded Ysam, 3 Nods in wedge and 2 other units (mostly cheap cavalry to harass and chase).
There even are 'fair' reasons to do that: your hardware is slower than your opponents or there's a bull terrier on your lap seeking for the best formation to have a nap and you need a more solid and defensive army to stand a chance.

I also see the other sides of the coin, so I swap between several styles (including mods, map and settings) and enjoy them.

[Orda Khan]

I have never claimed, nor would I claim, to be a vet. I have never claimed to be a statistician...in fact I never study stats. Nowhere have I claimed that I helped with the development of any Mod........Me??? You must be kidding.

And as for http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif .......that's my opinion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Elitist.....ROFL........I don't think so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

......Orda

[Togakure]

TosaInu-san, thank you for your opinion and for the analysis. Not that agreement matters, but I agree with everything you wrote.

As most are playing 1.02 now (which is not my favorite patch, but one must accept reality), it is challenging to find an effective army that is siginificantly unlike others with the 4 max and no ashi rules in place. The use of h7 ysams had not been seen very much until the returning vet came with his 12-unit army which included 4 h8-9 ysams. At first his army was surprisingly successful. Then many analyzed his army and style, and developed counters for it. Soon, many were discovering the effectiveness of h7 ysams--though only a few were able to balance the rest of their army effectively given that they cost so much.

Orda, I assumed that you were involved with the patch development--indirectly if not directly. After reading your post in the thread about stats or common sense, etc., I saw that you do not place much value on stats. Why then does using h7 ysams shock you?

Mainly, I knew that Puzz was a key player on the 1.03 development team. Based on the sacrifices one must make to employ h7 ysams in a 10K 1.02 army, I was surprised at the seeming vehemence of Puzz's post. Yes, h7 ysams have some distinct and powerful advantages. But they have distinct weaknesses as well, you can only bring 4, and they cost half of the total koku available to you. Thus, the rest of the army must bear the weight of their high cost. From my point of view this seems to balance them out well.

Most people would not consider themselves to be elitist. But it is the perception of others that earns the reputation. What the elitist thinks has no bearing on what others perceive. What an elistist says and does, does. But no matter ... you will think what you will think--as will I. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Togakure]

Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ April 04 2004,00:28)]What you could say about using such units, is that 'correct' unit match ups on the battlefield are less important: the H7 YSam will handle most of them (wins or is defeated slowly). Good, wrong? Depends what you and the other players in your game want.

Regarding this: I think RPS is a good general reference. However, I don't think it's realistic for one to always expect it to apply in unit match-ups--nor should it always apply, imo.

Military units throughout Medieval Japan (and anywhere, anytime else for that matter) had varying levels of training and experience (which is reflected by honor in this game). Elite units existed, possessing far better skills than average units of the same type. I think it is entirely realistic that elite Yari Samurai units could defeat average to good No Dachi, or that elite Cav units existed that could defeat average Yari Samurai, etc.

Therefore, I think use of RPS in game combat (or Earth, Wind, Fire, Water depending on the analogy you prefer) should be balanced with the knowledge that honor (training and experience) of any given unit may be higher than the average. The balancing factor is that all teams are limited to the same amount of koku to invest in their armies.

[Puzz3D]

TogakureOjonin,

I think spears pumped to that extent degrades the game balance significantly because it swamps out the RPS. That's why I said it's wrong. I'm not saying you are wrong. It's just the situation created by the game engine with the v102 at 10k. That's indicated by the fact that you eliminated a whole class of units to beat a vet who exploited this flaw. The class that you eliminated is supposedly the anti-YS unit. I don't see how playing with less unit classes makes the game better. It certainly doesn't for me. We already know what works best in v102 at 10k as determined by the player community in the months after v102 was released. It's 8 YA and 8 musketts, and there is no counter army. The 10k standard itself is there to raise morale so that units can stand in the face of those muskets, but that exacerbates the YA upgrade problem and the YS is following not far behind, although, the problem isn't as pronounced because the base cost on YS is higher.

I would be fine with the v102 if the muskets, YA and kensai, which are the most unbalanced aspects of it, were eliminated and the game was played at lower koku thereby minimizing the upgrade exploits. Have you experienced the 16 kensai walkthrough? I find so much wrong in v102 with the current settings that I'm not able to get any enjoyment from the game, and I certainly tried to enjoy it over the 9 months that I played it.

The YA is messed up by the incorrect calculation of the weapon and armor upgrades which actually affects all units. The musket is messed up because of the way the high kills per volley interact with the morale system and the extremely high number of total kills you can get with a single unit. The kensai is messed up because of the way it interacts with the battlefield upgrade system and the ballistics of the ranged units.

It still surprises me how bad v102 is considering how much effort went into it, but the game engine defeats you at every turn as you try to address unit balance. The v103 along with playing at 7k koku reduces some of the problems, but it doesn't eliminate them, although, I think you can utilize more varied army types. To me, that's a more interesting venue to explore than the convergence of v102. Since v103 was not official, it was doomed to never be accepted by the community eventhough more players worked on it than worked on the v102, and we didn't have the 6 week time limit to get it done. I'm not the only one who thinks v102 is bad. Something like 66% of the multiplayer community left after we/mi came out, and v102 only brought this back up to about 50% of stw levels for about 3 months before it dropped back to pre-v102 levels.

From a historical perspective, you just don't see military units 2.5 times or more better in combat than other units of the same type. An upgrade of 5 honor points does that. Taking less than 16 units in order to exploit this aspect even more seems inappropriate to me. SingenMitch presented the historical analysis on this a while back. I don't know if it's still available. Historical arguments for a certain play balance within the game are not really applicable anyway because this isn't an historical simulation.

As far as it being ok just because you can do it within the game has some complications. Did you know that you can put units in the red zone, shoot at enemy units and they can't shoot back? Did you know that you can attack and kill your opponent's troops during the deploy phase? Are these things ok because the game allows it? Some players though they were ok to do, and some didn't. I sided with the players who felt these things were not ok to do. They were both flaws because CA fixed them in mtw. They also fixed the flawed weapon and armor calculations in the upgrade system, increased the cost of valor upgrade to 70% even though it does exactly the same thing as it does in we/mi, imposed a valor 4 max on units, put a 20% tax on more than 4 of a unit in mtw and eliminated the honor sell back by purchasing units at valor 0.

Saying there is no right or wrong to all this is like saying we could have randomized the unit stats in v102. If one type of gameplay is no better than another, stats don't matter. That can't be right. Given this game engine, there has to be a certain relationship beteen the unit stats to arrive at a correct solution. The problem with balancing is that changing a single unit stat affects other units because thay all interact in a complicated way. I don't think a single person on that v102 team got the gameplay they wanted, and the community definitely didn't get the gameplay they wanted. There wasn't any way to exactly recreate the gameplay of original STW because we had new units and weapon and armor upgrades, but WE/MI v102 could have been made a lot closer to original STW than it was. I think that would have satified the majority of the players, and I felt that way at the time. I suppose there are things to be enjoyed about v102, but the flaws ruin it for me.

[Togakure]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ April 05 2004,04:39)]The YA is messed up by the incorrect calculation of the weapon and armor upgrades which actually affects all units.

To me, that's a more interesting venue to explore than the convergence of v102.

From a historical perspective, you just don't see military units 2.5 times or more better in combat than other units of the same type. An upgrade of 5 honor points does that. Taking less than 16 units in order to exploit this aspect even more seems inappropriate to me. SingenMitch presented the historical analysis on this a while back. I don't know if it's still available. Historical arguments for a certain play balance within the game are not really applicable anyway because this isn't an historical simulation.

As far as it being ok just because you can do it within the game has some complications. Did you know that you can put units in the red zone, shoot at enemy units and they can't shoot back? Did you know that you can attack and kill your opponent's troops during the deploy phase? Are these things ok because the game allows it?

Saying there is no right or wrong to all this is like saying we could have randomized the unit stats in v102. If one type of gameplay is no better than another, stats don't matter. That can't be right.
Hi Puzz3D. Thanks again for a detailed and thorough explanation of your point of view. I sure do like that quality.

How does the incorrect calucation of the weapon and armor upgrades affect all units?? This is something I've never heard before. I am not questioning your information, just curious to know more about this.

I agree about 1.03/1.05 providing a more interesting venue to explore army design. I like the patches better, but rarely get to play them anymore as there are few others who like them--primarily I think because they haven't spent much time with them and thus don't like that they "feel" so different from 1.02. The lower koku/honor also causes the perception that the armies are underpowered when compared to 1.02 armies (which is not true when you look at things relatively).

My comments tying in the probabilities of history were qualitative in nature, not quantitative. I hadn't calculated the actual factor increase in effectiveness. I was just pointing out that there were elite units that were better than the average units--that could likely defeat units of another "class." I understand your point here, and while I think it is possible there were a few units that were fantastically better than others of their same type, they certainly weren't common. I'll browse the archives and see if I can find ShigenMitch's post and the associated discussion.

When I said commonly accepted game rules, I meant the rules commonly accepted by current players--not the game's programming rules and flaws. I am aware of the red zone and the overlap deployment problems. They were demonstrated to me by someone (I've forgotten who) a long time ago. I haven't seen any current players exploit these, so it hasn't been a problem of late (for me at least ...).

And of course, no, from my point of view these things are not ok to exploit just because the game allows it. There will be those that will exploit any weakness in a game's programming. I am not one of those. Thank goodness the programming team prevented the modification of a player's stats within the file system--other online games suffer terribly because of twerps who actually change their stats so they can do things the other players can't. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I can't speak for TosaInu-san, but what I got out of what he said was: "right" and "wrong" is a matter of how we choose to look at things. If a group of people enjoy playing under certain conditions, it is "right" for them. Others may not enjoy those same conditions, so it is "wrong" for them. So, the best thing to do is find a group of people that share interest in the same conditions, play great games, and have great fun.

Different stats provide choice. In the face of the fact that an "ideal" set of stats has not been developed (ideal being a subjective term relative to the "majority" of players), having a choice is a great thing. For that, I think you, Tosa, and everyone who contributed to any of the stat development work deserve considerable credit and thanks.

You have mine. (*bows*)

We better be careful Puzz, or they'll create a new HOF category: Longest Average Post Poster, and you and I will definitely be in the running ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[Puzz3D]

About upgrades:

Original STW only had honor upgrades. An honor upgrade adds +1 att, +1 def and +2 morale and costs 40% of the current unit value. The reverse is true if you sell back honor. +1 honor increases each man's chance to kill by 20%, and his chance to survive by 20%, so the 40% cost is correct for a 1 point change in honor if you consider morale to be worth nothing. This simple system works well when a unit's base cost is proportional to it's basic combat stats, the base morale tracks basic combat ability and not too many upgrades are made. I say not too many upgrades because charge bonus and anti-cav bonus are of a fixed magnitude, so they become proportonally less of a factor when you make a large number of honor upgrades. Morale also plays less of a role as you upgrade because it's a threshhold effect and almost all the morale penalties are a fixed magnitude. One last thing is the honor sellback. Since you purchase units at honor 2, you can save money selling back honor of high value units, and in turn purchase more honor upgrades on cheaper units which increases the total combat points (total combat power) of the army. This was also the technique used to produce the very effective 16 monk army. At 500 koku each, you wouldn't be able to purchase 16 monks in a 5000 koku game without this sell back.

Many players requested that weapon and armor upgrades be added to multiplayer, and they were added in WE/MI. The cost for a weapon (+1 att) is 40%, and the cost for armor (+1 def and +1 armor) is 60%. That alone is an overpricing of the benefit derived from the upgrade which actually isn't a bad thing, however, it's not 40% and 60% respectively of the current value of the unit. It's 40% and 60% independently of the base cost. That's a big error, and it causes a shifting relationship among the units as you vary koku level. That weapon uprade on a 1000 koku YS only costs 80 koku (8%), but it increases the combat ability of the unit by 20%. The problem is so pronounced on the 100 koku YA in 10k games that most players just ban them. The YA wasn't a problem in original STW. Rather than having a solid foundation, the upgrade system in WE/MI is based in shifting sands. The weapon and armor upgrades shouldn't be used in WE/MI because they are broken. Unfortunately, you are still stuck with the 10k koku to get morale up high enough to play with guns and to have units fight long enough for some flanking tactics to be useful. The slowing down of infantry units in v102 to compensate for the faster code excecution of WE/MI over the internet was a major error because it dramatically changed the tactics of the game. You could go back and use the official v1.01 unit stats at lower koku, but that game is just a naginata cav + sword inf rush.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't like the super ys much either, though I almost always use them in my armies...at hon6w1a1 they are still cheap (968) but a very effective, too effective I think in that they are all round better than no-dachi. However you have to bring them, there is no alternative really....and at least the h2h combat lasts longer with them than with no-dachi, giving more time to flank.

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Yuuk, Togak

Yah, there was a long discussion on what makes a unit 10x more effective than another... Here's the long story short: Two exactly equipped units, training can only make one about 2.5x better than other. Where you see huge combat power differences in history is less the individual men's training compared to differences in the equipment of that the two combatants wield (machine gun vs. bow & arrow -- both guys might be veteran fighters, or the guy with the MG may even be total novice -- but he still is 100? times more powerful than the vetran bowman...) The other place u get huge kill differences is when one unit has been out "tactic" by another -- i.e. it is hit from behind, commander let unit get surrounded, surprised, etc.

--------------------
The Valor/Florin upgrade breaks the game (especially in STW/MI) because the level 0-9 allows you to take the exact same unit and make the 9 unit 20x more powerful than an exactly equipped 0 unit.

The power curve for each of those steps 0-9 is NOT linear, it is exponential. 9 isn't 9x better than 1 (which would be bad enough) its like 20x (I even recall something like 40x, but I'll go with the more conservative 20x)

This not only is ridiculous for units of the same kind, it breaks down the game because you can have a unit, if upgraded enough, do things it was never designed to do -- i.e. YA slaughtering Monks...

Kensai is a whole nuther story GAH

[Orda Khan]

That was my point Mitch but I failed to explain. The upgrades have been used to exploit weaknesses in the game which gives the scenario you describe. That is quite acceptable to some people but others, myself included, feel it ruins the game.

This has all gone way off topic though to be honest....the thread asks for a favourite unit not a favourite pumped unit

.......Orda

[jkaney55]

Wow, I was surprised to see such a high amount in
favor of the Kensai
I really liked the concept of them, but iI eventually
felt a little nauseous when I made an army of 16 and
found I was invincible, totally ruining that feature unit.

I thought they were a little too indestructible. But it
also must be noted that I have no patches, just in case
someone "humanized" them.

[TosaInu]

Hello jkaney55,

They can be pretty tough indeed. The best Kensai counter, imho, are BattleNinjas (cheap H0). Kensais become more powerful in lower koku games, because of the battlefield upgrades. You could opt to buy some arqbusiers then and hope for the best. Try an almost point blank volley as that increases accuracy greatly.

A way to achieve this:
-Make a group of your missile units (SHIFT CTRL 0) and line them up.
-Turn of fire at will (A)
-Put the units on hold to prevent skirmishing.
-Deploy the units in 1 rank deep to make sure 'all' guns fire at once.
-Let the enemy approach to about 1/3 of the normal range.
-CTRL 0 to select your line of guns and press A again to open fire.

The enemy may have 16 Kensai and make a focussed fist. Spreading 3 guns in a single line will dilute you and render most of your gunners idle. You could use some guns in 3 rows and use the normal fire at will method and some in a single line for a final blast like described above.

::::
\\\____///

\\\ is gununit in auto mode 3 rows.
_ are single line guns.
: are approaching Kensais.

Not a guaranteed recipe for victory, just something that works at times.

[jkaney55]

Hey, Thank Tosa Inu

Ill have to try that..

A little off topic, but I have to say
I am really impressed with these
boards, They are probably one of the
friendliest I've ever encoundered, and
the members are both helpful and
solid posters. Kudos to the moderators
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Medieval Assassin]

I think I'll reinstall and play some online... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jelirus]

I hate to resurrect an old thread just to post my two cents, but such is my love for Shogun to this day.

I voted Cavalary archers. My respect for them greatly increased on the day I was being attacked by an unexpected formation of warrior monks.

My cav archers stopped their assault dead in their tracks and sent them high-taling it in the opposite direction.... and their little buddha's too

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif