New unit!

[[DnC]]

http://www.totalwar.com/community/rome.htm

Yes, yes Another unit. Triarii this time, looks nice

[CBR]

Hm no special ability other than being sappers..


CBR

[shingenmitch2]

What crack u smoking CB? :-)
No special... blah... GAH

It is an accurately represented Triarii I am so impressed with this latest generation of units. They finally spent the time to get them accurate.

Just look at the greave-straps on back of legs, bracing for rounded scuttum... the feather plumes... small square breast-plates and Montefortino helmet
happy happy, joy joy... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

now if they only fight half as accurately as they look http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kraxis]

So you haven't noticed that he carries the spear with the point backwards?

Seems odd, as in RTW so far all troops have fought with the underhand style. The Triarii will fight with the spearbutt first.

But other than that, I love him
I'm just surprised at the breastplate. Did the Trisrii actually have a breastplate on top of the mail? But, if not, let him keep it.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 20 2004,15:22)]So you haven't noticed that he carries the spear with the point backwards?
It reminded me of the later TC episodes in which spearmen regularly used their spear overhead and hit their enemies with the wrong end http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif .

[Barkhorn1x]

Well, one can now predict that the next unit will be - the Principes.

Barkhorn.

[Sir Robin]

I am so droolong over this game.

[shingenmitch2]

You're joking right Krax?

Virtually all spears of that time period had a sharp butt-spike to drive into the ground vs. cav or to use if the spear tip broke. Thus the point at the back of his spear.

Now, what might be causing u some confusion is that the in the animation, the front spear tip does disappear from the animation when the soldier is rotated forward, presumably it is "cut off by the bottom of the view- window" but when the animation has the soldier's back to us you can clearly see both the tru spear tip and butt-spike.

[Knight_Yellow]

Actualy hes not holding the spear backwards.

its just that the "tip" is out of view.

Turn him so hes got his back to you and you can see a silver tip on the spear.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ Feb. 20 2004,15:05)]What crack u smoking CB? :-)
No special... blah... GAH
Yes yes they look great and all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Its just that if a spear unit like this dont have some kind of special dense order/defense special formation...well then Im just wondering how much accurate fighting we are going to see.

So far I have read about very few special formations and when I see the Triarii dont have any...

Im just the type that prefer tactics over great graphics (although very historical graphics) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif


CBR

[shingenmitch2]

To be honest CB, I'm right with you on that. It's why I don't like most EA Sports games... look good, but don't simulate game very well.

As for the Triarii, I don't know how many special bonuses they should get. They were sort of a poor man's Greek Phalanx and I would venture that as a phalanx it was only second rate. (But good enough to serve its purpose in the Republican Army)

[Catiline]

under normal circumstances the only special tactic the triarii had was kneeling at the back watching the battle. They shouldn't have to fight for a Roman general who's not forced into giving battle and makes any sort of good job of generalling it. THey generally only fought ot cover the retreat of the defeated hastati and principes if things were going really badly. then they fought in a compact phalanx type formation. Nothing that needs depicting as a special triarii only skill. They'll get a defense bonus through their armour their equipment and presumably something like steadier morale to count their age. Special one off skills aren't hte way to go, a balanced spread of stats are.


Special abilities should be used sparingly IMO. Otherwise you're just going to develop an ancient arms race. The consequence won't be tactical skill on hte battlefield,which if anything is utilising what you've got to hand regardless of what they can do, not picking and choosing special skills.

[CBR]

Hmm I dont see them as a poor man's greek phalanx. Experience, armour and the discipline of roman armies.

Its not so much about special bonuses as having special formations to make units, with different training and weapons, different from each other in tactical use.

Hell.. just having a special marching formation that sucks at combat but great at moving. But looks like I can keep on dreaming about such stuff because RTW will not have it. What was it called.."Historical themed strategy game" no room for battle simulator there sigh


CBR

[Spino]

I want to know why a relatively inexperienced unit like the Hastati can form a square and a veteran unit like the Triarii cannot. Given the Triarii's experience, hoplite spear and lack of missile weapons you would figure they would be the perfect candidate for that kind of special formation ability.

And what's the point to giving the Hastati the ability to form a square if they only possess two throwing spears? After the Hastati have discharging their two throwing spears a square formation seems like a waste of time. Perhaps the Hastati have been getting mauled by cavalry in CA's testing sessions and this was the only means to provide some balance?

EDIT - After some thought perhaps the reason why the Triarii cannot form a square formation is because they already possess a special formation... the phalanx. Since the Triarii are armed with a hoplite spear I assume they can form the densely packed 'phalanx' formation like other hoplite and phalangite units. It makes sense; since the Triarii are armed like Greek & Spartan hoplites they'll probably fight like them too.

In light of this I am guessing each unit in RTW is limited to possessing only one special formation/move/missile function.

[CBR]

Spino:

Yes I was thinking same thing really. But IIRC Phalanx has been mentioned as a special formation so I would say it should be mentioned under Triarii...but maybe they forgot it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

I just had hoped they would have more formations than the current 1(0?) for each unit we have seen so far.


CBR

[shingenmitch2]

Spino,

you began to touch on it.

The Hestati are armed with javelins, but their primary weapon is a sword. The way swordsmen fight is much more independent and loose than a spearman, thus their unit is more flexible. A sword equipped unit, properly drilled can form that square. The corners aren't much of an issue cause guys can virtually face any direction.

The strength of the phalanx absolutely required that each man have their sheilds overlap and were in perfect linear formation. Corners would create gaps in this formation (especially how shields overlapped) and thus a square becomes a real issue. The edges/flanks of the phalanx were its weakness and it had extreme difficulty in handling attacks from multiple directions at once.

[some_totalwar_dude]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 20 2004,15:22)]So you haven't noticed that he carries the spear with the point backwards?
rotate the unit and you'll see a bigger point on the correct side. It's a double edged spear. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Kraxis]

Yeah, shigen told me earlier... I only just saw this post. Typically me, but at least it is positive. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

And really, I'm with you guys, they should have the Phalanx formation like the Greek units.

[Herodotus]

Roman swordsmen had to work together though. They often had shorter swords than their enemies so in 1 on 1 combat a barbarian with a longsword would win 9 times out of 10. However in battle the Roman tactic was to press into the enemy with their shields and stab them in the guts with their short swords, the barbarians pressed together could find no room to swing their longswords and so were cut down.

[shingenmitch2]

Yes, Roman swordsman depended upon formation and close order to defeat their enemies.

But in relative terms, their sword formations were far less rigid than a hoplite phalanx -- which was a locked shield wall that offered virtually no room for individual maneuver (their shield had to stay fairly solid with the formation). Roman soldiers were much freer to turn/spin/dodge/maneuver within their assigned space in the formation.

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (Herodotus @ Feb. 26 2004,00:39)]in 1 on 1 combat a barbarian with a longsword would win 9 times out of 10.
9 out of 10? I doubt it. We have no reason to believe that a Roman soldier became a helpless drone when removed from the collective. A pike armed fellow beyond the phalanx, maybe, but not Gaius Gladius from Latium. Roman tactics enhanced and magnified the value of an already formidable fighting man.

[Leet Eriksson]

btw he is not holding the spear backwards,if you rotate the triarii one of the angles shows the spearpoint,if you still don't see it,then he probably is gonna fight with the spear over his shoulder rather than below his armpit.