A weird question...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Historically, weren't the Hastati the barers of the Hasta (long spear)? Is it accurate to depict the Triari as the carriers of the Hasta? Wasn't it the other way around?

Please elaborate... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[shingenmitch2]

Nope.

Sounds counter-intuitive, but the Triarii were the third and last line of the early legion. They were spear bearers that basically fought as the old hoplite phalanx (the earliest Latin armies fought as a phalanx -- based off the Etruscan armies which, in turn learned to fight in the manner of the Greeks).

Latin/Roman tactics changed as they came in contact with the Samnites and other hill tribes. The first two lines of the legion, including the Hastati (who were not spear bears, but who's name probably was derived from Hasta-- which you correctly point out means spear) and Principes, learned to fight the looser order of the hill tribes and using javelins and sword.

However, the third line continued to fight in the older method. Thus the Triarii devolved into a spear wall behind which the first two lines could retreat (before the legion as a whole fled the field) or could be used as a final reserve for a last push forward. Often they were relegated to guarding the camp while the first two lines went to fight.

Why the Romans chose to keep the name Hastatii for a non-spear line, I'm not sure. The third line being named triarii is more obvious tho. (tri -- three)

[Kraxis]

I read a really good theory on this not so long ago.

When Rome began to adopt the manipular legion it wasn't like we understand it now.

The Hastati were equipped as we know them, but back then the pilum was not called that, it was called Hasta-velites, thus the name of Hastati (and thus the name for the Velites later).

Then one might ask why would the Principes be called that (implies that they are the main troops) if they were in fact the second line and were equipped like the Hastati more or less?
Again there is some difference between the legions. While the Hastati were meant to disrupt and rush the enemy, to seek a quick victory, they weren't equipped for a prolonged battle, so they would retire and the Principes advanced. They were not armed with the hasta-velites, but with the normal hasta (like the Triarii). I think there are some accounts of the Principes using hastas against Pyrrhus and the Samnites.

Apparently the Romans still thought of the spear as the main weapon for some time after the convertion to the manipular legion.

[shingenmitch2]

Yep, the switch for the Principes tooks some time. You are correct that initially they only used first line (hastati) as the counter to the Samnites, etc. When they found how good they were at heavy combat is when they started switching over the Principes and much later the Triarii.

Principes' name I think is also pretty straight forward. they were considered the primary (principle) fighters and thus Principes.

Interesting point about the name for the javelin.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Sounds counter-intuitive, but the Triarii were the third and last line of the early legion. They were spear bearers that basically fought as the old hoplite phalanx (the earliest Latin armies fought as a phalanx -- based off the Etruscan armies which, in turn learned to fight in the manner of the Greeks).

Latin/Roman tactics changed as they came in contact with the Samnites and other hill tribes. The first two lines of the legion, including the Hastati (who were not spear bears, but who's name probably was derived from Hasta-- which you correctly point out means spear) and Principes, learned to fight the looser order of the hill tribes and using javelins and sword.

However, the third line continued to fight in the older method. Thus the Triarii devolved into a spear wall behind which the first two lines could retreat (before the legion as a whole fled the field) or could be used as a final reserve for a last push forward. Often they were relegated to guarding the camp while the first two lines went to fight.

Why the Romans chose to keep the name Hastatii for a non-spear line, I'm not sure. The third line being named triarii is more obvious tho. (tri -- three)



Quote[/b] ]When Rome began to adopt the manipular legion it wasn't like we understand it now.

The Hastati were equipped as we know them, but back then the pilum was not called that, it was called Hasta-velites, thus the name of Hastati (and thus the name for the Velites later).

Then one might ask why would the Principes be called that (implies that they are the main troops) if they were in fact the second line and were equipped like the Hastati more or less?
Again there is some difference between the legions. While the Hastati were meant to disrupt and rush the enemy, to seek a quick victory, they weren't equipped for a prolonged battle, so they would retire and the Principes advanced. They were not armed with the hasta-velites, but with the normal hasta (like the Triarii). I think there are some accounts of the Principes using hastas against Pyrrhus and the Samnites.

Apparently the Romans still thought of the spear as the main weapon for some time after the convertion to the manipular legion.



Quote[/b] ]You are correct that initially they only used first line (hastati) as the counter to the Samnites, etc. When they found how good they were at heavy combat is when they started switching over the Principes and much later the Triarii.

Principes' name I think is also pretty straight forward. they were considered the primary (principle) fighters and thus Principes.
Thank you indeed to both of you, honourable ones. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

Now I understand. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Kraxis]

Yuarrewelcome

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya can rectify the confusion here.

Youz claim Hastati wield Hastas. Well... in REALITY, Hastati were just people that walked around saying "Hasta la vista, baby". Hence the "hasta" youz were referring to.

Arnold is a modern day hastati.

GAH

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]GAH

Vanya can rectify the confusion here.

Youz claim Hastati wield Hastas. Well... in REALITY, Hastati were just people that walked around saying "Hasta la vista, baby". Hence the "hasta" youz were referring to.

Arnold is a modern day hastati.

GAH
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Shigawire]

LOL Vanya :D

You do Gah a lot :D

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

[Mithrandir]

Monkfood.