Help for new player please

[Ironstone]

Well, this is about as dumb a newbie situation as it's possible to have - I'm stuck in the Tutorial!!

Could anybody please advise me?

The part that's puzzling me is the section where you are in control of a group of archers who are half way up a hill. At the bottom are a group of enemy spearmen. The task is simply to hold the high ground and kill the spearmen. Sounds simple enough.

So I select the archers and click on the spearmen and they begin to fire. As they doggedly climb the hill about 3 out of 35 die. The archers then clear off and mostly refuse to respond to my commands to halt, hold ground, etc. They end up chasing all over the map and eventually getting nailed by the spearmen.

If I get them to take off early and hold high spots briefly while they get off a few shots it still ends up the same way. Each time they stop the spearmen get closer and eventually nail them. The archers are also pretty stupid about walking straight over the top of an excellent position and down the other side.

On one occasion I finally got the enemy whittled down to 8 men (I had 20 archers left and they were in a dominant position higher on a hill) and the game simply closed down and informed me that I'd lost!

I've tried all sort of different formations and marched them into numerous spots, but just can't seem to get them to kill those spearmen. Oddly enough, when I tried the next tutorial (with a couple of armies) they seemed fairly responsive - and I won first try.

What's with these blasted archers? Is it supposed to be a long drawn out exercise or am I just failing to do something reasonably basic?

Thanks.

[FasT]

Hold Formation! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif dont put them in skirmish mode.
They will just stand their ground until they rout or kill the enemy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
But in most accassions there best left in Skirmish mode.

------------------
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markuk/t.gif/Fast.gif
Grey Wolves
FastCub

[Ironstone]

Thanks very much for the suggestion FasT.

I did command them to hold formation but they still took off on their own intiative once the enemy spearmen got close. I hit hold formation and halt repeatedly with very little noticeable effect.

After 30 or 40 tries I finally struck an amended loose formation that seemed to give better results than the preset ones and they whittled the spearmen down to 26 or so before taking off. This time they behaved reasonable sensibly and (as you suggested) held formation and just turned occasionally and loosed off a few more shots.

Eventually they reached the top of one of the furthest hills and turned and meleed (again on their own initiative, and by now outnumbering the enemy 2 to 1).

As expected, they reduced the spearmen but took a fair bit of damage too. They then took off downhill again. However, I then seemed to be able to control them again and marched across to another rise where I turned them and shot enough of the remainder for a victory.

The thing that's confusing me is that I was expecting a lot more control over troops than this. They seem to ignore my commands most of the time and simply follow their own agenda! Is this usual with troops or could I be doing something wrong for that situation? Maybe they just know I'm a green commander! ;-)

[MagyarKhans Cham]

U read the newbee section at the org?

[Gothmog]

Hold formation and Hold position are completely diffrent commands.

When your troops are ordered to hold formation, they will try to stay in rank. This is useful for projectile troops, also very handy when facing hostile cavalry with your yari.

On the other hand, when your troops are ordered to hold position, they will try their best to hold the ground, neither retreat nor pursue.

"Hold position" is the opposite of "skirmish".

while "hold formation" is the opposite of "engage at will".


In your case, try to deploy your archer on the hill in two lines, and use hold position and hold formation.

Once you have reduced the number of the enemy, you can either order your archers to charge in wedge formation, or quickly deploy them in a tighter formation (4-5 ranks deep instead of two lines) then engage at will.

[Ironstone]

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
U read the newbee section at the org?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the suggestion. Where is it please? I've discovered a strategy section and have been reading through some of that. Interestingly, one of the threads there was from somebody with a similar difficulty to me - finding out that "Halt!" and "Hold!" are conditional rather than absolute commands. I also found a link to a FAQ.doc but couldn't get ithe download to work (will try again).

I guess it's one of those push/pull situations. The manual and some of the posts don't make a lot of sense until you've played the game, and the game is hard to fathom out until you've understood the manual!! However, I'm improving slightly and did manage to win the next part of the tutorial fairly convincingly. :-)

[This message has been edited by Ironstone (edited 04-08-2002).]

[Ironstone]

Quote Originally posted by Gothmog:
Hold formation and Hold position are completely diffrent commands.
SNIP

In your case, try to deploy your archer on the hill in two lines, and use hold position and hold formation.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks very much for all your help and clarification Gothmog.

I have now managed to score a couple of wins with the archers holding formation and then apparently moving off when they think the situation calls for it - still in formation, and turning to fire when safe.

In one memorable encounter I ended up with only 3 archers versus one spearmen who simply hammered away at each other to no effect. After watching them in amazement for over 5 minutes I moved the speed slider hard over and watched them dash madly round in circles for another minute or two before the archers finally prevailed! Funny to watch.

But I'm gradually getting a feel for what the game will decide for itself and what I get absolute command over. Also when to be hands on and when to be hands off and not "over-clicky".

Having played a few lesser games recently (including the pretty but bug ridden and problematic Warrior Kings) Shogun is a real eye opener! The tutorial right after the archers one had 3 different units up against 3 groups of enemy gunners - and what a joy it was to play! Wow, and that's not even scratched the surface of the game yet. :-)

[Vanya]

Soon, my son, you will take over...

[Kraellin]

yup. this aint no AoE add-on or clone. completely different game and much better. it's a shame more havent realized this.

also, if i recall correctly, the demo/tutorial game did play with slightly less control at times...god, it's been 2 years since i did that thing. in all the other modes you get more than enough control of your units...except when routing. i keep looking for that anti-rout button but still cant find it ;)

K.


------------------
The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[Ironstone]

Thank you all very much indeed for your helpful, patient and encouraging comments. After some of the forums that I've been on for games it's a rare treat to find one with posters of this quality. I guess the morons are all off playing simpler games.

It says something about the class of this game, and this forum, that a floundering newbie question was responded to by players with several thousand posts behind them and uncountable hours of playing experience.

It appears that this is a game that grabs you and then keeps you. I hope that I can do it justice. Thanks again to you all. (makes suitable low bow in direction of forum....)
:-)

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Ironstone:
Thanks again to you all. (makes uitable low bow in direction of forum....)
:-) [/QUOTE]

Wow man, not so low, your forehead is almost touching the floor! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Have fun playing, and come online soon...

------------------
tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
------------------

[Katsumata]

Ironstone, just curious if you ever found that newbie section. I'm in a similar boat. I've found a bunch of FAQs from various locations, but strangely, none of them seem to talk about approaches to the campaign from the get-go.

I'm starting out a full campaign (as the Satsuma), and I'm curious how to get going. Do I build up an army before doing anything? Combine my various forces? Build infrastructure?

Not that I need those answers here, I was just surprised to see that I haven't been able to find a FAQ that covers the start of the game well, particularly on the strategic map.

[Ironstone]

Hi Katsumata,

I'm still searching like you. But I did find some helpful stuff at the Strategy archive here http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi
(I couldn't get the full link to diplay, but run down the list and select the one at the bottom, then hit Go)

There's a thread there with some strategy links on (some of which don't work now) but I haven't come across anything yet that seems to fit just what you're after.

Good luck with your game, and if I come across any more good stuff around the net I'll post a link here.

[This message has been edited by Ironstone (edited 04-10-2002).]

[Papewaio]

Hi Ironstone,

Although I'm in Sydney, I lived in Perth for over ten years. One of the Dojo's veterans is DP and he is a fellow sandgroper.

Any questions just keep asking them.

Oh and I apologise in advance for any undue sarcasm.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Victory First, Battle Last

[Nelson]

Ironstone and Katsumata, welcome to the world of tired frightened soldiers, seasonal weather, sudden thunderstorms, real terrain and flanks you better not ignore! This is the real deal!

Timing is very important in this game due to fatigue and morale. Try not to hurry things. Be patient and monitor your troops as they fight. Use terrain to your advantage. Before long you will crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women. Well, it least the first two!

[Katsumata]

Actually, I've now come across another strange newbie-ism. Is there anywhere that someone describes how to handle a combat from start to finish? I can find tons of strategy that assumes you've already gotten into combat and set up your troops, but here are my questions:

1. Can someone step me through the setting up of your troops? For example, in the full campaign I'm Satsuma trying to take Chikugo, my first combat outside of the tutorial. I get to the combat screen and then what? I get the ability to review the terrain, but I have no idea what troops my opponent has or where they are located. All I know is that they have 300 people, and that I learned from my emissary before the combat. How can I make a decision about whether to attack in the rain when I don't know if they have archers or not? Perhaps this is something the Shinobi tells me that the emissary can't? Not sure, don't have any Shinobi yet...

2. Before you start the combat, is there any way to give your armies custom formations? I only seem to be able to choose from the presets for armies, groups, or units. For example, I can't drag my archers so that they form a long row 2 deep.

3. Is there any way to choose where you want your units to start, or are you stuck with the original location, and you have to choose where you want to put them, then march them there?

4. If you are attacking a territory (not a castle), is there any relevance to the actual building? Or do you simply have to pound the tar out of the enemy?

I apologize for the newbie questions, but I now have 4 FAQs, including the GameSpot guide and the Org member FAQ, and none of them describe this. They just jump right in with "use archers against melee units" and so forth.

Thanks for your patience.

Yoroshiku onegai moushiagemasu.

[oZoNeLaYeR]

Hahahah i stuck this too when i first play for almost 2 hours figuring out how the hell do i kill them or even reducing the spearmen to which i can rush my archers...

[Katsumata]

Hey, as long as I'm pestering, here's another question for the full campaign:

1. In the early part of the game, should you use your daimyo out on the battlefield to get an early edge, or sequester him away in a castle and try to build up other generals?

Ironstone, if you want to share newbie frustrations with me offline where we won't get flamed, just e-mail me at battisti@bigfoot.com. (Not that anyone has flamed us yet, you've all been downright welcoming!)

Boy, it would be nice to have a specific Newbie discussion forum!


Does anyone know who makes this forum software? I love it. They use the same thing on the CivIII site. It's one of the better forum products I've seen. I'd be interested in finding out more.

[Vanya]

In SP you can customize the formation to your liking if you are defending only.

To custom place a unit, you can
1. Select the unit
2. Point the mouse where you want it, then click down on left button and draw until the ghost is what you want it to be. Then release the mouse button.

You can set overall army formations using the little icon on the left (above your unit banners). But you must have the whole army selected for it to work (I think).

[Nelson]

The daimyo is always too valuable to leave in a castle, especially if he adds honor to his army. His capacity to create heirs is undiminished by extensive campaigning so keep him in the field. Daimyos that die heirless end your game so obviously that would be a disaster. Still, his hatamoto will be your only cav for quite a while (unless you play Takeda) and that makes him very useful. In early battles flank an engaged enemy with him to induce a rout and then pursue. The hatamoto will improve by killing many fleeing troops that will not live to bother you again. Victories won pile up and his honor will grow, adding to the honor of all he commands. One day when the army is large he can stay back and survey the action while composing haiku. Until then he should fight.

The strategic buildings have no effect on tactical battles. You can't even see them.

If you take an enemy region you MAY capture the building(s) on the strategic map but as likely as not they will get destroyed or downgraded. You can not control this.

Besieging a castle until it falls will dowgrade it one level or destroy it outright if it is small to begin with. I advise storming it just before it surrenders if you have the troops to do so cheaply. Storming a castle before the next autumn turn ends will also secure the region's next harvest for you, but again, only attack if you can do so without incuring heavy loss.

I also advise playing Shimazu first.

You can ask anything at all right here in this forum. Sometimes you may get conflicting opinions but all of the advice will merit consideration. Takeda Shingen has nothing on us. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[sbreden]

I agree. As a relative newbie to the game, learn with the Shimazu clan. Their position on the strategic map is second to none. I am now trying to master the Usegi Clan. They seem similar to Shimazu in terms of difficulty.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Welcome newcomers. Allow me to answer a bit of your questions if I may. Note these are from my perspective only, and are not set in stone - as they are based upon my playstyle. You will find much encouragement to find and adapt your own style. However, hopefully I can give you a few starting points.

First, you can only define unique and custom deployments on defense. On offense, you must rely on the preset formations to start.

Using the Diamyo at the start of the game can give you some serious help, since you will often face an opposing Diamyo in the early stages of the game. The honor bonus your diamyo gives to the army can often spell the difference between defeat and victory. Just avoid spears...

As to whether you should consolidate your forces or strike out initially, it depends on your style and situation. If your in a good position where your flanks are protected, then sure, strike where opportunity arises. But, if your spread thin, dont try to grab more.

Use shinobi and emissaries, and keep an eye on your own provincial loyalty. The last thing you want is to expand too quickly into weak provinces, only to have your army cut off by rebellions. Spy early, spy often.

Don't put much stock in the treaties you sign with other diamyo's, but be careful about breaking them yourself, as that seems to irritate all the diamyo's, not just your former ally.

Concentrate your economy - don't try to build everything everywhere. Lay tactical traps for the AI - it loves to attack - and if you can set up a good defensive army at an excellent defendable chokepoint, you can eat the AI for lunch, meaning you can go on the offense sooner, since you will have depleted the enemy armies.

Strike appropriately, take out the enemy infrastructure. If you cannot hold a province - raid it. Take it, sell everything, and bail out of it. This strengthens your economy and hurts the AI.

In combat, if your facing lots of ashi, remember that they panic easily. Rout one and alot will waver - rout or kill the taisho and they are all going to consider breaking. Chase all routers off the field if they have no reinforcements. If they have reinforcements, do not overpursue - but maintain your battle line.

You can choose which units you will use if you have over 16 in one province, only if you have the WE/MI pack. If you do, there is a button during battle setup where you can highlight a unit and rotate it out.

Don't waste men in early battles. If you cannot hold a province and are seriously outmanuevered, save the men. They may be useful later.

Using WE/MI, u can retrain and upgrade - do so. It saves the honor of the units - and that is a great boost, and is cheaper than building new units.

Keep an eye on your heir's ages. When they are due to "come of age", make a decent unit for em. Don't crank out an ashi group with a great general - it really hurts his survivability and usage. Vesugi Kenshin is much more useful (and longer lived) as a heavy cav samurai than he is as an ashi.

Be mindful of fatigue and morale. They are huge factors in battle. Also be aware of the seasons - weather is critical in properly planning of action.

About guns - be careful if you want to get them early. The cost of suppressing rebellion can be higher than the gain.... or not. Balance your needs with your goals.

I suggest the Sengoku period first. Taking on the mongols to start is a good way to learn how to lose... and not much else.
Shimazu is a good easy start. Its midgame and end are actually tougher due to that however. Vesugi is one of the toughest starters - but once your solidified the mid and end game is cake.

Mori and Oda are the two extremely tough ones - tough starts - and tough mid games. Overall, the end game usually is somewhat easy regardless. By then its you and one or 2 other clans, behind set and firm borders. You fight a slew of defensive battles to bleed one opponent dry, raid deep, and then general assualt as they try and recover.
Or, just use giesha on the diamyo and his heirs.

Q!
Skkz

------------------
BSM_Skkzarg
"ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
"ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"