Filthy backstabbing spaniards!

[Sociopsychoactive]

I started my first ever campaign as the Aragonese today. After playing through as most major powers (English, Byzantines, Germans, Spanish etc) I decided to give the little guys a try. i'd had a great time smashing up the world as the Danes so next on the list was Arragon.

I bribed the cid, nabbed Navarro the same turn the Spanish tried to bribe it, but ran out of funds to nab Portugal (playing early/expert/GA, those start florins don't last long for small factions). All is good for a while and I get to keep level in all three, am about to start on boats and a crusade when the Spanish attack Navarro and Valencia. We retreat and counterattack capturing the king and the very next turn they turn up on the doorstep begging for peace, with a free daughter if we accept now.

Seeing as my kings influence had risen to a safe level we accept and build up some more, but our shipyards had all been in progress when they attacked, so rather than start over we go for workshop level buildings instead, to get some decent troops. A few choice wars break out weakening the French and leaving us neutral so we charge north, break the siege of a couple of English castles and fight some very tough battles against the bulk of the French army.

Just as the French counterattack with more troops than I knew they had the Spanish attack Navarro and Valencia AGAIN Our armies were in tatters due to the war with France and our king had died in a glorious defeat (killed far more than we lost, but still lost the battle in the end)

Though we had no real armies to rebel, and civil war wasn't really a threat what with us only owning ONE province now, we ignored the French for a moment and charged back down to break the sieges. Both battles result in a costly victory and we limp back to Arragon for retraining, now being able to field less than 500 men, and most of them are partial squads. The Spanish don;t seem content with crippling us and attack again, this time we try to break the siege in Navarro but fail, no matter how well commanded 200 men have a hard time attacking nearly a thousand. My king gets trapped in the Keep, I'm left with no decent commanders (the cid died in France) and no boats, so I can;t even run away.

How d you avoid this sort of thing happening? I tried starting over and the Spanish did it again, as soon as I tried to attack someone else (this time the almohads) the Spanish leapt at our throats from behind and crippled us. I don;t want to wipe them out, I want to try and get to at least high, maybe even late, with as many factions still in it as possible. I'd rather not force them down to one province, but either of these would require more troops and money than three little provinces can effectively field. As the Danes I had viking units and could counter large armies with small, elite and very effective ones, but the aragonese get no such advantage. if they have an advantage that I've missed please let me know, and I can;t really maintain an empire of three provinces on GA without seriously falling behind on points. Every where I go the Spanish attack me while I'm gone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

Ps. Both times the spanish were allied to us when they attacked, and throughout the entire game not a single faction got excommunicated.

[katank]

You can go north first and nab toulouse from the french with an autoceasefire. The english also tend to ignore you and tangle with the french so that you can focus elsewhere.

getting cid in valencia is good and navarre is also nice. I use these four starting positions to build my empire.

I personally prefer all out rush during the first few years with my starting troops backed by mercs. THis is able to grab a lot of land.

don't go for portugal, it's too rebellious and will eat up your troops like nothing.

In my aragonese game, I took out the spanish as leon for the bonused knights santiago and castile for inquisitors, both units that you need. BTW, the aragonese get a discount for inquisitors if I recall correctly.
I built an inn in navarre and recruited some mercs and then attacked castile.

I collected my warning while going onto leon with my main force and leaving the rest to siege. I was even able to promote a civil war and the starting heirs for spanish are not that loyal.

going back to portugal, I had problems with taking out the almohads until they decided to vacate cordoba to hold portugal which rebeled every year and ate up an entire stack. Then I did a nice north africa drive and left a beat up almo force still barely alive in cyrenacia.

However, if you want to keep the spanish alive, I would say you'd have a pretty tough game as you have three provinces to guard. Taking castile would narrow it down to one but you will probly get excommed.

I got ticked off when the spanish king refused my ugly daughter lol. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Then I had no choice but to kill em.
The english were far more amenable to a marriage. Perhaps it had some thing to do with it. hmm I dunno

[Sociopsychoactive]

THe problem there is mercs, I might JUST be able to hire them, but my income was as low as 150 a year with all three provinces on very high taxes, and farms built to 40%. All I was supporting was around a thousand troops, it;s the cost of supporting my heirs you see. With mercs I would be bancrupt before I started, and even with the profits from taking castile I wouldn;t have been able to support them any more than a few years, leaving it open for yet another spanish counter-attack.

[katank]

never mind bribing el cid then. You don't need even so much regular troops. On expert, it's kinda impractical to bribe el cid as you can get him for 3500 min. on turn 3 or 4 else it's 5200-5600.

you can use your initial cash reserve to hire mercs after sacking navarre and toulouse.

build watch towers and then inns to calm the populace. Then hire all the mercs you can. you should abuse the mercs. ie. head on charges, assaulting castles, etc. while your regular troops do the defence work.

I usually have a merc army headed by my best general to do the attacking and assaulting while I follow in my other army with my king commanding the regulars who might siege castles and defend against counterattacks.

You don't need to keep mercs for long. 3 years should be all you need to take out the spanish. first turn hit castile, second hit leon and move regular army into castile, then storm during the third year in both provinces. I might keep the mercs only if I can't keep loyalty high enough with regular troops or I want to keep on attacking. You might want to sit back and develop a bit or go straight on and do the north africa run against the almos before they can have loads of AUM down your throat or give em a chance for them to throw away troops on the portuguese ulcer. LOL

[Senta]

well, i have my Polish Empire spread all over the east including Scandinavia, everything in Europe to Rome/France and most of the southern part of the map as well... i had an alliance with Papacy, English and Hungarians (who reside in Italy now :) ) so i could concentrate ion my fight with Spaniards and Egyptians in Holy Land... and then Papacy breaks their alliance and attacks me in Venice (to no avail, but still) Now i'm after this hypocrite Pope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif excommunicate, my butt

[HopAlongBunny]

I (finally) got the Argonese to work. It was Early Expert.

I pretty much the the opposite of what you did; Navare and Sid as well but after a brief peace I did not stop until all of Spain was mine. Its one of the best defensive positions in the game if you go that route; 2 provinces in the North that are easy to defend and Morroco (bleh spelling) After that, its just a Spanish campaign: Port, Gran, and Mor pump out fleets; full farm upgrades for all; a huge number of Jinettes :)

[Martok]

Well I can't say I'm surprised that Spain would backstab you like that. Goodness knows whenever I play Spain (which is often, as they're 1 of my 2 favorite factions), I always take out Aragon the first chance I get http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif They're usually my next target after I bribe Cid and conquer Navarre. Even the threat of the Almohads only rarely distracts me from taking out my fellow Iberian Catholics.


I do this for two main reasons (although any Medieval player can probably guess what they are easily enough):

1) Taking Aragon gives me a valuable province, both economically and strategically. In addition to having a good income, it also starts with a keep, allowing me to train some of the (relatively) better units almost immediately. And of course, occupying Aragon and Navarre secures my backside and gives me very a nice defensive line along my northern border.

2) Conquering Aragon eliminates an enemy that is very likely to screw me if I don't take them out first. In my experience, Aragon can and will backstab me if given the chance. The few times I was dumb enough to trust my "allies" to cover my rear while I went after the Caliphate (our mutual enemy, by the way), in every single instance they proceeded to invade my lands while my attention was turned southward.

Now I will concede that I can't really blame Aragon for coming after me. Politics, religion, and simple geography all conspire together so that they really have no choice but to contend with me and the Almos if they wish to survive in the long term, much less actually prosper. It's been my experience that ultimately the Iberian peninsula isn't big enough for the three of us; in the end there can be only one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Regardless of whether they have a good reason, however, Aragon is still a threat that needs to be destroyed. Otherwise they spend the entire game f***ing with me; I never get a moment's peace until I stomp on them once and for all.

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi Sociopsychoactive,

I'm not entirely sure and cannot look it up now but I assume that the GA Goals of the Spanish overlap with your own Aragonese's. You can check this in the game by clicking the GA parchment and clicking on the Spanish flag.
No matter if you're allied with them, GA goals always come first.
Otherwise I second the thought of getting rid of them asap.
Cheers

[The_Emperor]

The problem is that in Iberia "There can be only one"... No lasting alliances can be formed there and the Spanish, Aragonese and Almohads are all after the same lands anyway.

Always expect a backstabbing, and then just Kill them all

[Jeff]

The Emperor hit the nail on the head. Only one power in Iberia, otherwise it will be constant wars. Personally I haven't had too much trouble with Spain when I play Aragon. Usually they are always duking it out with the Almos. Once Spain and the Almos have significatly beaten each other up I sweep through and mop them both up. I have never taken toulouse in the first few turns so i'll have to try that strategy.