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the Black Prince
02-25-2004, 00:40
ok, rescused this post from Ithaskar, back in the repository. tried using it, but found its not completely accurate

i can't find any other definition of this, can someone help me?


Quote[/b] ]
Grell the numbers after it represent how many Kings of a name have been previously. The number ties into the King names. Usually there are 8 Kings so you would get 8 numbers, except that 0's are left blank.

The third number gives the Roman numeral for the starting King because all factions use their first King name as their starting King.

*edit* Will add example to explain better.

Papal States(Early) have
FN_PAPIST 0 8 2 1 8 20 2 1 2 7

2nd number represents the number of names that the Papists use for Popes. This is also in the default_heroes.txt
3rd-10th numbers represent each of these 8 names by showing how many Popes of this name have ruled previously. So the next Pope Gregory (last Pope name) is assigned Roman Numeral 8 IIX.

When a faction just has 0 0 the factions is said to have had no previous Kings - the 0's for each name are left out.

ok, all well and good so far
now my example - the english

SetStartLeader:: FN_ENGLISH 0 7 0 2 0 0 2 1 2


now english royal forenames are
"Henry"
"Edward"
"Richard"
"John"
"William"
"Alfred"
"Edmund"
"Stephen"
so the first english king should therefore be henry - but its william. 2nd number is accurate though. william starts with william II, and the 5th number in that list is 2, so that makes sense i guess.
BUT if 0s are discarded, why are there zeros here? and how does the game know if 0s have been left out. there are 8 english names, but 7 numbers, so which number doesn't have one? is it always the last ones?

this makes sense, because if some factions have 4 numbers
0 2 0 1, but zero is discarded, the second zero isn't necessary except to push that 1 back to position two, so that the 2nd kings name has the 1.

fianlly, the english names in default heroes are suppossed to match those in names.txt aren't they?
there are no english forenames defined in changes.txt only english heroes names. so the list in names.txt and default_heroes should match, but it doesn't.
"Henry" {"Alfred"}
"Edward" {"Edward"}
"Richard" {"Edmund"}
"John" {"Edgar"}
"William" {"William"}
"Alfred" {"Henry"}
"Edmund" {"John"}
"Stephen" {"Harry"}

left is default heroes, right is names.txt
now i know that the default heroes list appears in the game, in that order but just adding names to that list doesn't work, so what gives?



as for famous kings...
name is supposed to be name in order on list, where 0 = first name and 7 = eigth name
but this doesn't work either. when that name and number comes up, the stats are all wrong.

now we know henry V is a warrior king for england
henry is first on the list we know is used, so he must be 0 in the first column for english kings


FAMOUS_KINGS:: FN_ENGLISH 12
name.no.c d p a portrait nv
4,2, 3, 7, 3, 4, -1, tyrant2
0,1, 2, 4, 4, 7, -1, lawman1
7,1, 3, 4, 3, 4, -1, vaccilator1
0,2, 3, 6, 4, 6, -1, anger1
2,1, 5, 6, 5, 2, -1, mightywarrior3
3,1, 2, 5, 2, 2, -1, secret_tyrant3
0,3, 2, 4, 4, 3, -1, charity1
1,1, 2, 3, 3, 4, -1, lawman1
1,2, 1, 2, 3, 3, -1, secret_lust1
1,3, 3, 4, 3, 3, -1, mightywarrior1
0,4, 3, 5, 3, 5, -1, secret_tyrant3
0,5, 5, 4, 4, 5, -1, fearsome3

now looking at that we have several famous henry's
now Henry V could be either 0, 4 (i.e four previous kings have used that name) or more likely based on the previous stuff in this post 0, 5
now henry 5 would be a warrior with command 5 by that score... which makes sense.

now every starting king always starts with the same stats - ever noticed that? which suggests that every starting king is a famous one, simply to set those stats
first english king is william II
william is 5th on the list, so number 4
and indeed, first famous king is a 4, 2 - william II

now calling up viking on my laptop whilst typing, i will II has the following stats
command 4 (should be 3)
piety 3 (should be 3)
dread 9 (should be 7 + 2 fro v and v)
acumen 4 (acumen 4)
tyrant 2 becomes autocrat, which is right, giving the 9 dread overall, but why is the command off? he doesn't have defender or attacker stats which might explain it.

i tried starting games on different levels,and the only difference i noticed was that normal gave his ageas 29,and expert 39, not sure if this was coincidence or not though...


so basically, how does all this link together? anyone help me?????

the Black Prince
02-25-2004, 17:05
surely someone here has the answer?

Deceiver
02-26-2004, 01:55
Thx for finding and putting this up Prince I am going to check it right away... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Deceiver
02-26-2004, 01:56
Maybe I will get some idea... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Plantagenet
02-26-2004, 03:36
Quote[/b] (the Black Prince @ Feb. 24 2004,17:40)]FAMOUS_KINGS:: FN_ENGLISH 12
name.no.c d p a portrait nv
4,2, 3, 7, 3, 4, -1, tyrant2
0,1, 2, 4, 4, 7, -1, lawman1
7,1, 3, 4, 3, 4, -1, vaccilator1
0,2, 3, 6, 4, 6, -1, anger1
2,1, 5, 6, 5, 2, -1, mightywarrior3
3,1, 2, 5, 2, 2, -1, secret_tyrant3
0,3, 2, 4, 4, 3, -1, charity1
1,1, 2, 3, 3, 4, -1, lawman1
1,2, 1, 2, 3, 3, -1, secret_lust1
1,3, 3, 4, 3, 3, -1, mightywarrior1
0,4, 3, 5, 3, 5, -1, secret_tyrant3
0,5, 5, 4, 4, 5, -1, fearsome3

now looking at that we have several famous henry's
now Henry V could be either 0, 4 (i.e four previous kings have used that name) or more likely based on the previous stuff in this post 0, 5
now henry 5 would be a warrior with command 5 by that score... which makes sense.

now every starting king always starts with the same stats - ever noticed that? which suggests that every starting king is a famous one, simply to set those stats
first english king is william II
william is 5th on the list, so number 4
and indeed, first famous king is a 4, 2 - william II
BP, I checked the English Kings, and assuming they're using the order of names given in Default Heroes.txt, and not Names.txt, the 12 English Kings are:

-William II: Tyrant2
-Henry I: Lawman1
-Stephen I: Vaccilator1
-Henry II: Anger1
-Richard I: Mighty Warrior3
-John I: Secret Tyrant3
-Henry III: Charity1
-Edward I: Lawman1
-Edward II: Secret Lust
-Edward III: Mighty Warrior1
-Henry IV: Secret Tyrant3
-Henry V: Fearsome3

As you can see, they left out Richard II (1377-1399), but otherwise, they're in historical order...and it looks like CA did a decent job at assigning historical V&V for the English Kings, too. "William" is 5th on the list because both lists in Default Heroes (Famous Kings and Forenames)start counting at 0. So "Henry"=0, "Edward"=1, "Richard"=2, "John"=3, and "William"=4.

You start with William II by default (and his reign really did begin in 1087), but you can pick whichever King you want to start with by changing the first number after SetStartLeader in Startpos\Early.txt. So if you replace "0" with "1", you get Henry I (the 2nd King in the Default Heroes "Famous Kings" list). However, the 3rd and additional numbers after SetStartLeader are which Roman numeral he is; so if you leave "Henry" at 0, he's displayed in-game as "Henry roman numeral", but if you put 1, he's "Henry I".

I still can't figure out the exact relation between the name lists in Names.txt and Default heroes.txt though... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Lord Of Storms
02-26-2004, 14:32
This has been a problem and a source of confusion for some time, awhile back I put this question to Eat Cold Steel CA dev and programmer on MTW, here is his response:

Quote[/b] ]Eat Cold Steel topic SetstartLeader meaning?
eat cold steel

Programmer



HOF Award 2003
Group: CA
Posts: 312
Joined: Aug. 2002
CA, UK Posted: April 09 2003,09:25

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SetStartLeader:: FN_BYZANTINE 0 0 4 7 1 3 10 1 0
The first 8 names of a factions' name list are "Royal," ie that's the name king use to name their sons. These 8 numbers tells the game how many kings of those first 8 names there have been before the start of the period. So for example, the first English king with the name Edward from early period is Edward III rather than Edward I.

So there it is staright from a CA programmer guys, opinons?...LOS
P.S. After a little more looking around I found another response to this same question from another CA dev and programmer GilJay smith:



Quote[/b] ]GilJaysmith

Code Panda



HOF Award 2002
Group: CA
Posts: 805
Joined: Aug. 2002
Creative Assembly / Littlehampton Posted: Sep. 23 2002,15:43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a quick look at the code, it seems the first number is an index into a table (hardcoded) of heroic kings, and the other eight are counters for the eight kingly names for that faction (also hardcoded). For example, that Papist data suggests that the Pope names will get these numbers: Nicholas III, Alexander II, Benedict IX, John XXI, Urban III, Innocent II, Clement III, and Gregory VIII.

All possibly plus or minus one

My loyal etc may be able to provide you with more information... rofl

Gil ~ CA



--------------
SO again it would seem this info can be taken as valid from 2 undeniable sources, they should know the game if they are developing and progrmaming the code
The things is is this info hardcoded, thats a misconception it can be altered, the effects are what we need to document for clarity here...LOS P.P.S. More to come..

Lord Of Storms
02-26-2004, 14:49
So I think part of this confusion is we all thought the numbers in Setstartleader had something to do with stats like Command, Piety, Dread, accumen etc. when accordign
to ECS it in fact does not, thats why so many have altered these numbers with no apparent effect or change, then we said oh it must be hardcoded, when in fact it is not, but is only a names list indicator.
Names txt in itself can be random and confusing, now in VI with the Heroes files it gets a little more so,
I have edited the heroes and names txt many times for Mods and I still get lost periodically, its the nature of the beast, the random associations from names txt to game is frustrating,but workable to a degree.
So Ithaskar was not incorrect according to the game devs and I think they would know?...LOS
P.S. More to come

Lord Of Storms
02-26-2004, 15:07
Patron Frederick Barbarossa shares his findings and opinon on this as well, and sheds some more light on the subject:


Quote[/b] ]Frederick Barbarossa

Mercenary




Group: Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Nov. 2003
Sleeping in the Kyffhauser... Posted: Dec. 14 2003,19:23

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote (GilJaysmith @ Sep. 23 2002,15:43)
After a quick look at the code, it seems the first number is an index into a table (hardcoded) of heroic kings, and the other eight are counters for the eight kingly names for that faction (also hardcoded). For example, that Papist data suggests that the Pope names will get these numbers: Nicholas III, Alexander II, Benedict IX, John XXI, Urban III, Innocent II, Clement III, and Gregory VIII.

All possibly plus or minus one
My loyal etc may be able to provide you with more information... rofl

Gil ~ CA

Here's what I meant: First # is indeed index to Famous Kings table. But write down the entry for the 3rd King in your FK list; then change this 1st # to 2 (since it starts at 0 instead of 1), start the game, and there he is. So all I meant is while he's correct its the index to that table, you can change which King it refers to (and since he never claimed you couldnt, Im not really contradicting him). So I assumed that if I can change it, its not exactly "hard-coded".

The reason his virtues and vices change is because King 0 has different v&v than King 2. It just appears that what youve done by changing this number is change his v&v; but whats really happened is youve picked a different starting King who happens to have different v&v.



So FB, does indeed show this info is not hardcoded and can be changed, despite Gils saying it was hardcoded, and again the dates would suggest Gil was speaking pre VI anyway, so more to think about, more to come...LOS

Lord Xelous
02-26-2004, 17:22
I think I can stop all this confuson by giving you this link:

http://xelous.homeip.net/ntw/HeroTool.html

it's nearly done..

If any of you wants a manual lesson on how to edit Famous heros, famous kings, forenames, surnames, princess names and royal forenames e-mail me.

but I can confirm to you that some of the info in the posts in this thread is a little off queue.

LX

the Black Prince
02-26-2004, 20:32
done my own reseach with Burgundians...


the first number links into the default heroes
0 means first hero king, 1 2nd and so on.
all factions excpet burgundians use their first hero king as their starting king.
i.e. first English famous king 4 2 in default is William (5th name) II.

the reason we gets translation error is when we have 0 meaning first hero king, but we changed the numerals, so your start king is William II but your first William is the III
obviously this confuses the game
2nd number refers to how many numbers follow in that group denoting numerals..

in the group 0's are used to push numbers back in to position, so that 0 0 2 applies to third king instead of 1st. other zeroes are discounted 2 3 0 0 is same as 2 3.

not sure how default_heroes links into names still, but i do know that the list of names in default is the accurate one.
however, to get names to work, i think you still have to add them in names as well. further research is required on this point it would seem, but at least the key link is sorted.



also when i mentioned that the stats for william II in default_heroes and in the game were wrong, that was my mistake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif
they areactually right, except that because all the tabs are misalligned so that the number for numeral was under the command heading i got confused. oops

Lord Xelous
02-27-2004, 06:24
FYI your confusion over name 1 being index 0, and so forth is becuase in C++ (the language the game is written in) arrays go from zero up... I promise my tool will do this all for ya.