How to farm Killer Instinct and Trader

[Atilla1]

Im trying to put together a comprehensive list that I plan on posting showing everyone how to farm the different V/Vs.


Here are the two I figured out how to do relyably and reproducably today.

You can do Killer Instinct for any general, even if they ARENT royalty and werent born with it--ie I gave a Hashashin general Killer Instinct, which I upgraded to Natural Born Killer, Secret Killer and then Murderer. To make sure I had the technique down pat, I upgraded 8 generals who didnt have the secret killer trait to get that trait, and then upgraded them to all get Murderer for that lovely +5 valor, +4 dread, minus 4piety. This works

1) reduce the unit down to one man--the general himself.
If the unit has more than one man, then the following way wont work.

2) have him kill a unit of archers/spearmen/peasants/arbs/ect. If HE gets 40+ kills while the unit is standing and fighting him, he has a chance for it to get triggered after the battle. IF THE UNIT IS RUNNING AWAY OR MOVING AWAY while he is fighting, those kills will NOT count. The only way for the kills to count is if the unit STANDS and FIGHTS.

3) Only the general has a chance to get this upgrade unless he is with the king. Ie--if you do 4 guys your trying to farm at the same time against 4 units of archers--only the general will get the upgrades, even if the other guys also kill the 40+ guys where they stand.

4) Spys will not reveal Secret Killer and turn it into Murderer. I ran all sorts of experiments on it--and couldnt get it to work...dont bother. (Besides, you will just end up with a 9 star general Jedi god with big big valor boosts who has zero loyalty to you) Just repeat the process above a few times and it will upgrade to Murderer.

5) Sometimes you will get the right kind of kills in the right amount, but you still wont get the trait or upgrade. It takes a few tries.

6) Auto Resolve works if its against 1 or 2 units of peasants/archers/pavasice xbows/xbowmen/arbs/arqs/handgunners/ect. I upgraded single knights against 1 or 2 units of rabble many times without dying. Its just harder to do with Naptha Thrower generals.

Trader: I thought you could only get this for your ruler, but I was wrong. You can get this for the govenor of a provence as well as for your king.

This is very exciting because it will allow that Govenor to add 30% to a provence's trade income when the trait is fully developed. (+ an additional 10-30% on top of that if your Ruler has the trait too)

Put the guy you want to farm the trader virtue in charge of a provence with a mine---salt mines are the best as they are so cheap. Germany has a ton. Corseca is great too.

Then, make sure he stays in that provence while you do this. DO NOT MOVE YOUR GOVENOR FROM THE PROVENCE WHILE YOU DO THIS OR IT WONT WORK

Then build a 1st level salt mine.

Then, knock down the 1st level salt mine once its completed.

Then build the 1st level salt mine again.

Do the above repetitive process 6-12 times for it to trigger the trait in your govener. Another 6-12 times for the second level of trader, and another 6-12 times for the 3rd level of trader.

If you do 6-12 mines anywhere in your kingdom, it will trigger the trader trait for your ruler no matter what provence he is in. Again, Germany is the best for a ruler because you have so many salt mines when you start out, as well as some close by for easy takings.

_

Ok, I need some help so we can all benefit here. If anyone can help play test some of my ideas, that would be great. Also, if you have any ideas we can try, thats great too.

Im still trying to figure out how to farm the following virtues and to figure out what triggers them.

1) The authoritarian Line.

(Im not sure, but I suspect you get it when you are warned a coup is imminent. I think it gets triggered if you try and execute that general for treason the turn you are warned. That means using a spy on him...but maybe its an assassin...who knows.)


2) Natural Leader Line.

4 of the guys I tried to upgrade today had the natural leader line because they started out as royals. I was doing the single man process for giving them Killer Instinct, which I did do, and which I upgraded up to Murderer.

Over the hundreds of battles they faught during playtesting, and after killing thousands of men single handed, this trait didnt advance. It also didnt develop in individuals who didnt have the trait.

Anyone have any ideas for how to farm this up?

3) Great Warrior Line

Same as above. 4 or 5 of the guys I was trying to build this trait up in started out as royals. I did the single man process and got them Killer Instinct where they didnt have it before.

After 200 years of battles against rebel peasants, and after killing thousands of these guys, I upgraded all of them to Killer Instinct and then up to Murderer. I never had any of these guys upgrade this trait to the next level. I also didnt see it develop in guys who didnt have the trait.

Conclusion: A single guy killing hundreds of guys on his own will not make this trait advance. Something else does it.

Ideas:

1) In reading the last level of this trait, I think that you have to beat another general in personal combat for it to trigger. Since it didnt happen when I was killing tons of peasant generals...maybe it only happens if you kill a general with your general in melee combat and if the foe has more stars than you or if he is a King.

If anyone can try play testing the following it would be helpful: Have your general's unit go against their generals unit. Put the unit in wedge formation so that your own general would most likely get the kill against his guy. Try to make it personal combat between the two individuals. Try to fight generals with more stars or kings.

[Basileus]

you only need to build 7 mines to get trader abd then another 7 for the next level http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif, works best for the italians if you get Serbia you´ll be able to get trader in 3/4 turns and with the all the trade the produce lots of $

[Gore]

I have never had general with vice murderer. Does it vice (+5v)work only for him or for whole his army?

[Basileus]

Quote[/b] (Gore @ Feb. 25 2004,04:59)]I have never had general with vice murderer. Does it vice (+5v)work only for him or for whole his army?
only the general gets 5+v

[Hetman_Koronny]

*bows*

A little cheesy Atilla1 but I do admire your effort and work you put in testing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif.

Now, about the Trader vice. Tell me something... Is it really worth the hussle (economical wise) to build 6-12 salt mines to get +30% to trade income?

*bows*

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ]2) Natural Leader Line.

4 of the guys I tried to upgrade today had the natural leader line because they started out as royals. I was doing the single man process for giving them Killer Instinct, which I did do, and which I upgraded up to Murderer.

Over the hundreds of battles they faught during playtesting, and after killing thousands of men single handed, this trait didnt advance. It also didnt develop in individuals who didnt have the trait.

Anyone have any ideas for how to farm this up?

I've gotten it upgraded once and it was when my commander was leading the army into battle several battles. It's possible that it's something like that the general need to kill the first one in battle (melee or total?) and that he cammands forces and aren't alone.
You'll need atleast 3 battles (got merciless at the same time).
Good tip on trader though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Atilla1]

actually the 6-12 trys is the first level trader which is only 10%.

The 30% upgrades would be 18-36 trys.

Is all that worth it? I dunno, when Antioch makes 12k in trade, you would make an additional 3 or 4 grand a year.

Is it worth it? I dunno--I just want to figure out how to farm all the traits so that if someone wanted to do it they know exacly what to do. I want to unlock and demystify the virtues so we can farm virtues if we want to.

I still need help on the Great Warrior Lines, Natural Leader Lines, and Autocrat Lines.

Please help suggest ideas to play test, play test people's ideas if you can, and post any finds you make.

Thanks.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Atilla1]

Quote[/b] (Basileus @ Feb. 25 2004,04:01)]you only need to build 7 mines to get trader abd then another 7 for the next level http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif, works best for the italians if you get Serbia you´ll be able to get trader in 3/4 turns and with the all the trade the produce lots of $
you dont need to get serbia--you start with CORSECA

YOU START WITH A SALT MINE

You can do it way cheaper at the beginning of the game without having to do any invasions.

[Sociopsychoactive]

I think getting trader for your king would definately be worth it, am I right in thinking it gives +10 happiness aswell as +10% trade income?

I Always do a steward run for new kings, about 20 or so farms ending on the same year will get you magnificent steward right off the mark, and the 30% income is very nice, but the 10 happiness is almost a requirement. Builder is the same, and you can even get it for building the farms, so thats two very necessary virtues gained in about 6-8 years, for not much cost considering the benefits.

If trader is the same for nations with quite a few places able to build mines just que them all up at once, when theyre done you should at least get one level of trader, and when your king dies que up the complexes to get the new king trader aswell.

Rinse and repeat for each monarch.

[Basileus]

Quote[/b] (Atilla1 @ Feb. 25 2004,14:14)]
Quote[/b] (Basileus @ Feb. 25 2004,04:01)]you only need to build 7 mines to get trader abd then another 7 for the next level http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif, works best for the italians if you get Serbia you´ll be able to get trader in 3/4 turns and with the all the trade the produce lots of $
you dont need to get serbia--you start with CORSECA

YOU START WITH A SALT MINE

You can do it way cheaper at the beginning of the game without having to do any invasions.

having serbia and say croatia lets you get the virtue faster and serbia is easy and a good province to have..you´ll have 3/4 provinces then where you can build mines, early on as italians your king has the trader virtue anyway..

[Atilla1]

Quote[/b] (Sociopsychoactive @ Feb. 25 2004,15:03)]I think getting trader for your king would definately be worth it, am I right in thinking it gives +10 happiness aswell as +10% trade income?

If trader is the same for nations with quite a few places able to build mines just que them all up at once, when theyre done you should at least get one level of trader, and when your king dies que up the complexes to get the new king trader aswell.

Rinse and repeat for each monarch.
Trader=+10% happiness/+10% trade income

Great Trader=+10% Happiness/+20% trade income

Magnificent Trader=+10% Happiness/+30% trade income


_


Yes, you can cue this stuff so new, young monarchs get this benefit.

Since Germany starts with 3 salt mines, 2 copper mines, and 1 silver mine, you can knock down the mines, and rebuild them all when a king dies. Germany is good for this because two border provences have salt mines also. Pommerania and Toulouise.

In two turns, you have a chance to trigger the trait in your king. If you upgrade them to level two mines, you will get the trait in a total of 6 years. Additionally it is possible to get the trait the first time with the 6 mines in two turns, and to get Great Trader four years later when you complete the 6 mine upgrades.

Is it worth the money and effort??

Say you have a new German King. He comes to power at 20. He goes for the Trader trait.

3 salt mines lvl 1 to build=250 each
2 copper mines lvl 1 to build=500 each
1 silver mine lvl 1=750
The costs for these 1 lvl mines pay for themselves in 10 years.

Mining complexes pay for themselves in 12-15 years depending on which type. But lets say you dont upgrade to these.

He may get the Trader Virtue at 22, and say he does.

Lets say his trade income is exactly 5,000 florines per year from the age of 20 until the nice average age many kings die, 56, which is a good number because everyone loves and remembers the 56-bug.

Total German Mine Cost of 2500 florines. It gets payed back at age 32. 56-32=24 years of mine Profit.

Trade had a profit of 5,000 florines and at the age of 22 he gets the Trader trait and it goes to 5,500 florines (+10%). 56-22=34 years of the Trader virtue benefit.

34 years times the 500 florine increase=17,000 florines you add to your coffers over the life of the king with this virtue.

Total life time profit the Trader virtue adds is 17,000 florines-(opportunity cost of not doing this and just holding the profitable mine for the 12 years it took to build the mine and amortize those costs)

Opportunity costs of the german mining biz for 12 years= 3,000 florines

salt=25/year times 3 mines times 12 years=900

copper=50/year times 2 mines times 12 years=1200

silver=75/year times 1 mine times 12 years.=900

17,000-3,000=14,000 florine profit from the level 1 trader virtue if your king starts with it at the age of 22, dies at 56, and has an average trade profit of 5,000 florines.

Is it worth it? For a young king--YES

[kawligia]

There is another way to get Murderer One time I got stuck with a lame leader, so I sent assassins to knock him off. He was a slippery little bugger and I had to send assassin after assassin, and right before he died (finally) he got murderer and the description says something about fearing assassinations.

Also he got secret MURDERER not secret killer, but it happend on the same turn. I also sent 4 or 5 assassins after him that turn too.

[Atilla1]

that is a different Murderer. And yes, that does come from assassins.

The two traits do not have the same stats.

Murderer from the secret killer line is far more yummy as it adds +5 valor.

[sledge]

how do you get the general's unit reliably down to just him without killing him?

[fruitfly]

Quote[/b] (sledge @ Feb. 26 2004,10:55)]how do you get the general's unit reliably down to just him without killing him?
Use the men in it to reinforce other depleted units.

[mbrasher1]

This is quite an interesting thread. I'd hate to do all that building destroying just for a king, even a young one. Since your govs never seem to die, I'd train several uber-guvs for high trade provinces. That benefit stays forever.

[Sociopsychoactive]

But if you do a trader/steward/builder run (total approz 15 years, all pays for itself in about 30 years) then you get +30 happiness is every province.

+30 happiness is definately not to be scoffed at, as when you hit 60% of the map and mass rebellions start psringing up 30% happiness is the difference between keeping 10% of your empire stable and 30% of your empire stable.

I always go for the steward run as I said, and I think when I have enough mining provinces I will definately go for the trader run aswell.

[Atilla1]

All three levels of Trader give 10% happiness. It doesnt increase by 10% for each level, but stays constant.

Doing the Trader trait not only gets your king the virtue--you can set it up for those govenors too, which is permanant. Thats pretty awsome.

Just remember, that each govenor with need 6-12 mines built in that provence. While each time this occurs anywhere in your king's realm, it may trigger it for your ruler.

[Sociopsychoactive]

No, but builder/steward/trader gives a total of plus 30 happiness. Yeah it would be good in governers, but alot more work, for the king it;s 2 years to get him trader, 2-8 years for steward, and you'll get builder along the line aswell. THe buildings built to get the bonusses pay for themselves, and it;s good to do a steward run each time your king dies anyway to prevent geting bad/poor steward goverenrs, which you get if you build all your farms then leave them for ages. If you destroy and rebuild every 50 years or so they've still payed for themselves (most places anyway) and if you build 20 or so you get the 30% bonus, which is very worth it as already stated.

[myself]

You can do the same to get Magnificient Steward by building and destryong 20%-40% farms. I've been doing this for a while now and it doesn't really have a turn value persay but you get a vice and the upgrade whenever you go from 20 to 40. Build you 20% farmland. Then upgrade it to 40%. you will get the Steward vice. Then destroy your farmland and build it up to 40 again. This will upgrade the vice to Great Steward. If you have around 3 of your generals doing this, your King also gets a steward vice chain. I'm not sure if the bonuses are cumulative tho.

[Kampfen]

Don't know about doing thus with every new ruler but I would do this with the permanent governors. Hey, why not farm an already good governor (high accumen) in a backwater low yield province, strip his titles and then give him new titles in a high yield province, and do the process all over again with a new governor in the low yield province again? Can't see too much trouble managing a large empire when every governor is a magnificent builder/trader.