View Full Version : Shoggun turned into a projectile war!
theforce
04-05-2002, 03:58
I didn't played online for quite a while when today l decided to log-in. I was shocked when l saw a guy in ironing board that seams like the most popular map now having a shitload of projectiles units abit over half his army. I thought that was the player but anyway after some games l saw that MOST if not all are using this tactic now with the only goal to win the projectile war.
Shoggun fights now are not faught with melee weapons as there role now is only to protect projectile units. Now all that counts is the firepower you have and not your ability to control an army http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Since the projectile units are cheap the few remaining units are of very high honor making it even harder. Also everybody uses ironing board which is so tactical limited. Compared to that totoni is a tacticians heaven!
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
i mentioned some monthis ago, that the guns are too strong, and the archers too...
yes, if u dont bring 6 or more shooters u will loose, ....
the prob is the h2h untis are to slow compared to the cav and the killpower of that guns...
if i move my nd into the range of a gun and move them fast, this gun can shoot this unit too 20 before my unit even arrive, that the prob!
u cant rush!
and thats the prob of this patch, 1 of the maingoals was to made stupid rushing imposibble or real hard, but now we have an other prob... just shooting battles...
koc
MagyarKhans Cham
04-05-2002, 05:44
There isnt a real problem, take 7 shooters yourself. 8 or more shooters will result in a loss.
The maps aint an issue, there are more even more fair maps than ironing board, whhich gives the players who lack creativity and being the attacker an advantage over other fine flat maps.
It's the people that lured me a bit out of MI - honour minded only and always the same armies. We're tied to 7 missiles as Mag said. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif And that is soooo sad.
I agree with theforce. I will still play MI regularly - but its really boring sometimes. Old STW is good fun...
Tera.
P.S.
7 missiles 2 NC, some nods, ys/ya
There you go, the new model army of MI lol
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 04-04-2002).]
Exactly why i no longer play MI...Boring *yawn*
Krasturak
04-05-2002, 07:35
Gah!
Play other maps, not the boring flat ones.
Play maps with trees.
Play maps with elevations.
Then see if the missiles are as effective.
Krast thinks not.
Krast has met players who stay on 'ironing bored' because they cannot handle terrain.
Such players are missing out on the more interesting features of the game.
What? Do I hear dissatisfaction? Sounds like a job for...
THUNDERBOMBERS!
!KABOOM!
Check out the Editing/Mods forum for more info.
Matt
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!KABOOM! -- The Thunderbomber Creed
1) play 3v3 or 4v4 friendlies on hilly, wooded terrain.
2) play my maps http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I used to always attack hilly maps but because my regular partner jae never plays anymore and because hardly anyone will join those maps its near impossible to get a good game like that.
It is so much more fun to 4v4 on Yamato or other such-like maps. Don't complain, just come and play big game on these maps.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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Krasturak
04-05-2002, 14:35
It is much more fun to attack a hilly map and fail than it is to march across Totomi for the 999,999,999,999illionth time.
Even if your chances of 'winning' on Totomi (etc.) is higher.
It's a matter of attitude.
I can see some flak coming my way for having Ironing "bored" as the tourney map.
The idea though is to have a simple tourney and to have hilly maps means more games att/def etc. Something for the future certainly but running before walking has never proved to be a good idea.
The more support this tourney gets the more likely the .org is to host another one.
Boromir...
ShadeWraith
04-05-2002, 15:25
I have just returned to MI after a 4 month absence and have been really enjoying it. I have been playing 3v3 and 4v4 multis with a lot of the old skool players though (thanks for indulging a very rusty player guys http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)I have also only been playing friendlies, so far I havent come across anyone using more than 6 missile units...usually 4 musk 2sa. I dont think that number of missile units is a problem as I used to use a similar configuration when playing STW. As far as terrain goes a lot of players are probably new to the game so any map is a challenge. I know from personal experience that I only tended to use hillier maps after I had got bored with the flatter ones, maybe the newere players havent had time to get bored with flat maps yet....not everyone has been playing Shogun since it came out http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Wraith
Put guns back to their old shogun power.
Good Point Wraith.
It's nice to see some positive thoughts appear. Too much grumbling in these forums sometimes.
Boromir...
I don't really call it grumbling. It's the d@mn truth. There is NO POINT absolutely fighting for the ladder first of all; even Magyar & co seemed to have stopped.
As for friendlies, depends on who you play on wheter you will have fun or not. Meeting a 140 guy who will play only if on ironing board + wants a comp rematch afterwards isn't the type of guy that really induces fun, isn't he? I just met this one yesterday.
Sometimes I meet good old players like Elm or Obake and we have some sort of big fun game that is always nice to play. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Unluckily, its not so common that these guys are online so most times I am stuck trying to get a fun game going...and it's sooooo boring. I will always pop-up to MI when theres a cool guy or two who can host a big fun game, bec they're fun...and thats where my "theory" comes from...its the people playing it that makes it boring not the game itself...
Tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
MagyarKhans Cham
04-05-2002, 17:37
Our Khan of Khans gave up chasing honour cuz there are not honourable and high noted players enuf to hunt.
Old shog aint better than new shog, but maybe new shog got more kidz online.
Still I wonder why people complain about being bored but not enlisted for a simple Questing Contest which adds tactics and planning to 5 linked battles. Macajor Krast Paolai and soon Bachus have played it.
U can use the tool yourself with friends or clanmates to have competitions with it. I noticed that we have a lot of people here longing for new stuff but once it is provided they lack teh initiative to participate. 2nd example, monstas 2 vs 2 tourney.
My Khan gave up developing new ideas cuz the overall response is sad low.
Perhaps TW:M may light up your fires, but i am convinced that eventually wont do it as well.
theforce
04-05-2002, 17:50
Well y he will loose if he has 10-12 projectile units?
I think not. Why? the melee will be very high honor and until you reach there all those projectile units destroy most of the attacking force.
I always didn't like playing on maps like green or ironing cause 99.9% are... march line up guns...fire until someone looses proj war. Guy who looses attacks.
Always liked attacking and defending maps that have have forests, height is also nice but l prefer woods.
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
Play the CONTEST! try to play the Contest with 7 or 8 missiles.....if u will win with so many missiles...u r a very good player http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Quote Originally posted by Paolai:
Play the CONTEST! try to play the Contest with 7 or 8 missiles.....if u will win with so many missiles...u r a very good player http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]
The contest is rigged... no Vanya maps in it. GAH!
How do you make the guns in WE/MI like STW? None of us know what the gun parameters are in STW. My own opinion is that the current kills/volley are higher than they need to be. They could be left that high if the reload time was made longer. This was my opinion during the v1.02 beta, and is still my opinion.
The powerful guns are there to stop the infantry rush, and they do that. They stop it cold. However, a consequence is that a few gun units can kill a whole army. That removes any need for the player who wins the gun battle to engage in h2h. So, the dilema is that, if you loose the gun battle, your rush option is effectively removed. The guns eliminate the early rush, and the late rush. You can try to use cavalry to get to the guns, but, if yari infantry are protecting the guns, you won't be successful.
Please don't get angry at me if I don't charge you in a game after I loose the gun battle. I don't see the point of even trying. I will concede the battle on the spot if you have more than 120 muskets remaining at the point where I have none.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
If your enemy is winning gun battle easily and you stay there getting butchered, then you're already defeated - like Yuuki said and I agree totally.
If your enemy is winning gun battle with ease then you should find a method to distract the enemy and then just attack.
Unfortunately, this MI was the greatest Total War ever for some time, but yet some ruined it again.
Signing out,
Tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
yuuki u know my opinion about the guns, reload times longer....hmmm, better we try power 3 or 3,5...we tested with power 3 and it was good, imo we better risk some infantry rushes, u can beat this rushes, but u need to control ur army good...
i did it in stw and just the bad players wich cant control the army fsat enpught lost against this tactics.... and ofcourse u was unlucky...
but better see the infantry rush again as always face this boring shootingwars...
and yes, this iron boring map players...they havnt much skill ....mostly they are very slow in tur ning theyr units or even do a nice move... they cant move the army good...
if they lost the gunbattle, they dont try a nice flankningmaneuver... just a boring frontalattack... this is the point!!!
i miss real good players with good skills,
Absolut agreed force!
take this boys and play a gunless battle, http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
u will see the most know a shit of moving, controlling ...tactics...
...hehe....im a bit bored it isnt the fun i had 2 years ago, ...this honour piss me off... the most wont play me, and if they do they join undercover, or drop me if i join them.... and most the time they change name... so u see every day new faces... thats anoying...
koc
Yeah I really hate that Koc...they everyday come with different names, boring stuff.
tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Kocmoc,
I just mentioned reload because it is an important parameter to consider. The infantry was slowed down by 25%, but the gun reload was only lengthened by 14%. So, the guns picked up an advantage there against the infantry rush. Also, at power 4, the musk gets about the same kills "on the target unit" that they got in WE/MI v1.0 because accuracy was increased to cut down on backround kills. Archers do better against guns in v1.02 because the gun's armor was reduced, but the archer does not beat the musk. Rain does greatly reduce the effectiveness of the musk, and trees makes them useless.
The kicker is that we had the musk at power 3 right near the end of the beta test period. I put 100's of hours into testing guns during the beta, and power 3 was my recommendation, but everyone did not agree. The power 3 musk is still strong enough to make a rush very risky. Now we just have to live with the game the way it is, and make the best of it. I recommend a musk limit of 2 if you are going to play on flat open maps, and the suggestion of max honor = 5 by Magyar and others to get rid of the super YA is very effective.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
theforce
04-06-2002, 02:14
I don't mind about guns be powerful etc. But rain except light rain should render then useless. That is a feature l miss a lot. Guns were disabled in rain so people were reluctant to take his army to win a projectile war. Rain could be an attackers ally. Attacking now is more unfair since guns work round the clock.
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
Well theforce, musks don't really hit a thing in rain, altough they still do damage.
Tera
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Kraellin
04-06-2002, 03:35
there seem to be two units causing problems still, guns and ya. the solution is relatively simple if we wanted to do it. we can mod the stats and agree that that is what we'll play. there are enough folks here that see the problems and enough of us still play online to make a large enough force to get others to fall in line. in other words, we could make our own patch, ver 1.03 by simple agreement and only play that. that IS one of the things that CA did for us and we're simply not taking advantage of it. the trick, of course, is to get ALL to agree with one stat set.
raise the reload time of guns. guns is rain are almost worthless, so that arguement about working in rain just doesnt (forgive the pun) hold water. and arq's dont work in rain at all. lower the honor of ya to -20 or whatever is needed to counter the effect of raising ya to high honor by koku. if it's also seen necessary to lower the power of guns to 3, then lower it to 3.
if this is all that's wrong with the current game, let's just fix it by consensus. i suggest you do this fairly quickly, however, cause when M:TW comes out folks are going to play that and not so much stw/we/mi.
i dont even see the need for a big beta test on this either. we know what's wrong, for the most part. we could actually decide on what the proper stats are in here and then simply alter our own stats accordingly and stick to it. grumbling at CA to fix it isnt going to happen. i think by now most realize that that isnt going to happen. well, that leaves us. i forget the actual reload times of guns but it isnt that hard to simply go in and double it with an edit.
i'd also like to see the range increased a fair amount. i argued for this during the beta also, but was voted down. muskets of this period had longer ranges, but much slower reloads...and they did work in rain, somewhat.
and just as a side note, japan actually quit using muskets after the sengoku period. they closed their borders, quit manufacturing muskets and had a relative peace for about 250 years...go figure. if i ever heard a decent arguement for banning guns, this is it.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
theforce,
There is no problem rushing guns in even light rain. For instance, a 10 musk army will simply collapse under a frontal assault. The difficulty is under dry conditions. If you are good enough to overwhelm your opponent's ability to manage his large number of guns with a multidirectional attack, you can succeed. You need exceptional management skill to have a resonable chance of success. The gunman has an easier task because his units are in a more compact arrangement. In 3v3 and 4v4 battles, frontal assault is often the only option, but you have the possibility of getting 2 on 1 situations which will offset a gun advantage.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
04-06-2002, 04:02
Although I never play online, I never play Sengoku Jidai anymore always Mongols. And Iam always the Mongols (custom battles).
I know that customs are not the same as online, but why does no-one use mongols online anymore?
They are class no? But also against Jap army they are not amazingly better.
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He is the Messiah
No i'm not the Messiah
Only the true Messiah would deny it.
Alright then I am the Messiah.
HE IS THE MESSIAH HOORAY!!!
Well, actually the solutions I came up with in my latest tinkerings were to set gun power to 3 (funny how we came up with the same number there), up reload times of Musks and Arqs to 30 and 40 respectively (just plain realistic), and increased range of both to 6000. I left accuracy where it was (which actually means that Arqs don't do much at their max range, but heck). I also set the # of men in Musk units down 25% from the Arqs, reflecting the relative rarity of improved firearms and partially balancing the big long-range effectiveness advantage posessed by Musks over their clunky cousins.
This of course tied in with my reduction of bow powers from .5 to .3, all of which ties in with the slowing down of attrition in general. I.E. even in melee, it actually takes some time to kill large numbers of enemy, so your goal in general is really much more one of good setup and throwing your enemy off balance than just KILLKILLKILLKILL *it's over*. I was playing online the other night, had several matches on several maps in several different arrangements, and this is basically the nature and pace of the game as I experienced it.
So basically projectile units in general, with the stats I've been experimenting with, is really just more of a tool to wear down your enemy than just annihilate him in a fiery hail of hellish death. This of course also connects with the rate of melee attrition being slowed down like I said.. one of the effects of this of course being that if enemy YC gets to your guns they won't all be sliced to pieces in 1.23 seconds flat.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Matt
theforce
04-06-2002, 18:50
Anyway new stats would be nice.
We can also raise the defencive nmber of each troop a bit to have longer lasting battles so that the game will be much more realisitic.
Things like regrouping doesn't work well because once some units run rest follow not giving you the time to regroup. In addition this way people will avoid rushing since a good player will have time to block it and flank. My 0.02 cents http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
Well alright Force what the heck are you waiting for go over to Editing/Mods/Patches and contribute to the Thunderbombers!!!
Matt
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!KABOOM! -- The Thunderbomber Creed
yep, thats it people, the Thunderbombers are here to help - maybe we could have a great stats tournament, with Puzz and Krae co-ordinating...the Dojo could even offer an Icon to the winner, the truth is - we can edit the stats, its just agreeing...if we all come to a conclusion about which will be best then there is no problem - we can run a set of 'Org Stats' which can be the new standard, it would bring some people back...and there is no harm in trying.
The Thunderbombers have been working on some stats and I think even the more hardcore players could be happy with the outcome...
come on people, there is a thunderbomber in everyone...
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"Situation excellente. J'attaque!"
ElmarkOFear
04-07-2002, 19:57
I think it would be interesting, if the amount of koku you had to spend before match had to also buy the buildings which are necessary for the production of each of the units. This would create an interesting delimma for the players . . Do I build that expensive TradingPost/GunFactory and then pay for the Muskets or do I buy a Spear and Arch Dojo to get some Cheap Ashigaru, Yari Sams, or Archers? Also, to get the ability to upgrade honor, armor, or weps you would have to purchase the necessary buildings as well. Would be fun to try out one night. I could gather all the costs for the buildings and give everybody a big koku figure, and they could decide what they wanted from there. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif If anyone would be interested in this we could set up a night to try it out.
NagatsukaShumi
04-07-2002, 20:31
I think thats a good idea, certainly lower the amount of guns people use
mail me at
samandshirley@splaxton.fsnet.co.uk
And I'll help you set this night up
[This message has been edited by NagatsukaShumi (edited 04-07-2002).]
ElmarkOFear
04-08-2002, 05:39
Seems Shumi here is either giving out someone else's email addy that is unaware of his posting it here, or he is "playing" at being interested in my idea. I sent an email to the addy he requested me to, explaining the idea . . . I get a post back that states just two words; "erm, ok". If anyone else sees this email addy used again, please do not send any email to it, it is either a hoax or a lonely call for help.
Hey, hey, save the drama for your mama.
Matt
ElmarkOFear
04-08-2002, 08:22
Is yours a lonely cry for help too Khan? I used to live in St. Louis in the 80's. Lived off of Old Halls Ferry Road and worked for the Dept. Of Defense downtown. Nice city with lots to do, unfortunately I had Kentucky license plates at the time and was always getting pulled over by the police asking me if they could search my car. LOL I finally found out the reason why . . They were trying to bust up a marijuana ring that originated in Kentucky and I guess I looked like the guilty type! The upside was I got to know several of the St. Louis police force and was able to get out of many speeding/parking tickets. I hope this cures your cry for help! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Kyodaispan
04-15-2002, 00:24
Well, its true - 1v1's do tend to be about as formulaic as powdered milk at the mo'. Then again, they always were in STW too - peeps still lined up their muskets and blasted each other until one was forced to charge. Although background casualties are now much reduced, overall gun power seems to have swung even more in yawnsville's favour. Am I correct in thinking that archer range has also diminished? (effectively making these units nearly redundant).
I for one would prefer a standard rule of a 2 max musk. This would still deter full on rushes, but wouldn't mean the rather ridiculous battles that tend to happen at the mo. If I wanted to play gettysburg, i'd buy an american civil war game.
There are ways around musk armies, although it is hard to pull off, and generally includes the use of large numbers of cav archers. However, a more effective limit on musket units would bring a lot more variety into the online gaming experience. Peeps who have heard me on this subject before know my feelings already, but i'm saying them again, just 'cause i can http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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