How to make Muslims work?

[kawligia]

So I've been messing around with some Muslim factions lately. I'm having a hard time getting it right. Most of their infantry is underpowered, so I tried using a lot of archers and cavalry. I won about half of the time but even when I did win, my army was destroyed. What kind of units are best to use and how when playing Muslim? I've never actually seen the Muslims put up a good fight in my games...they are very annoying to kill but I always annihilate them as catholic or orthodox. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Fragony]

If you could be a little more specific..

[kawligia]

Which units do you tend to use?

How many of them do you use to strike a good balance?

What do you do with them?

Why do you do it that way?

[John86]

Egyptians are good. They have camels which are amazing vs cristian calvary. They also get sacren inf anf gazi inf. Gazi inf is cheap and high morale. Also, futawas, which are even better. You should use muslims in a 40n4 where others can get pavs and you can stock up on light cav and archers to help rout the enemy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[RZST]

um didnt you already start one topic about muslim units? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Rowan11088]

You just can't play Muslim the same way you play Christian factions. And you can't play Almohads at all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
But seriously, you need to adapt. As it turns out, muslims do actually have some units that can stand toe to toe with Christian units, especially in Early and maybe High era's, which you can use to ease into Muslim strategies. Saracens are some of the best spear units in the game from any perspecive, Ghazi's can destroy heavy inf. If used properly, Armenian Cav are about equal to Feudals, All Jannisary units beat down opposition, and of course Camels in the desert do kick ass. But in addition, you've got those great skirmishing units. if you're Turkish, you have Futuwwas, which can weaken and demoralize the enemy from afar, and become shock troops in close. Egyptians have Nizaris, among others, and the Almohads can always resort to their Almo Urban Militia.

[Brutal DLX]

Muslims factions are not as uniform as Catholic factions are.
Usually, you need to have two types of armies, one for the desert or fights against other muslims, with fast light infantry and skirmish cavalry and then another heavier type for expanding and facing armies outside the deserts.

Saracens are nice for that, for Almohads you can't really use Nubians outside the desert, they are too weak. Ghulam cavalry is available to all Muslims and with massive armour upgrade they will be your primary cav, along with Armenians, if available.
The most basic army consists of a good spear unit (Saracens or Muhawid+AUM), Ghazis, archers (preferrably hybrids) and cavalry. Most likely, you will suffer more losses, but then your troops are cheaper in both training and upkeep cost, so you can always bring larger armies to any battle. Your main goal should be to skirmish for as long as possible before committing to melee.
After the gunpowder event and in Late, you may want to include arbalesters and upgraded handgunners (who will serve as some sort of defensive MAA equivalent) or Janissaries to match the Late era Catholic units.

[kawligia]

Quote[/b] (Ky Kiske @ Feb. 25 2004,20:55)]um didnt you already start one topic about muslim units? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
That was about the redundency of Turkish units. This is about Muslim tactics.

[Kulgan]

Give them women, alcohol and gold?

And if you want to win MTW battles, best chances you have is getting the fight to the desert and skirmish them out untill they're all exhausted, then you can win head on.

You're mostly rich enough to hire a few mercenaries in your armies to hold the line, a few strong christian units in the middle plus the muslim skirmish horde make a nice mixture.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

When defending you can pretty much play the standard defense - sit on a hill nad shoot anything that moves.

When attacking though its a lot harder - As Egypt/ Turk you need to use you mounted archers Turcomans or Mamelukes extensivelyt to attack and tempt away individual enemy units and then surround and charge them. Even halberdiers when charged simultaneouly from all sides by say two turcos and one Armenian HC will rout quickly, though in theory halb v cav, the halbs should win. THe other advantage you also have is futus - once the melee starts, use them to flank They have good charge values, and turcoman foot have good defense.

Almos are ok until High as AUMs will carry all before them. Afterwards, the best you have is lots of arbs and mercenaries.

[Senta]

you tried using the whip on them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (kawligia @ Feb. 25 2004,15:18)]So I've been messing around with some Muslim factions lately. I'm having a hard time getting it right. Most of their infantry is underpowered, so I tried using a lot of archers and cavalry. I won about half of the time but even when I did win, my army was destroyed. What kind of units are best to use and how when playing Muslim? I've never actually seen the Muslims put up a good fight in my games...they are very annoying to kill but I always annihilate them as catholic or orthodox. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
That's a tactical question, but here's a strategic answer: Jihads.

I'm playing a game now where my Almohads put 16 Jihads into one province.

The English, who I'd been fighting for more than 100 years, retreated. My armies were released from Jihad. I went after the English, and lost about 3,000 troops and only inflicted about 1,000 casualties.

However, I simply launched another wave of Jihads. The hard kernel of English troops who remained all had 7 or 8 valor from non-stop wars. They inflicted massive casualties, but were defeated and forced into siege inside a fortress.

My 30 or so Jihads gave me plenty of siege weapons, enough to reduce most of the fortress to rubble in minutes. The elite English survivors went down fighting and caused more than 5 to 1 casualties, but were simply overwhelmed.

The combination of Jihads and control of the oceans are one of the game's most powerful weapons. Jihads from coastal provinces can instantly mass in one location, making for a massive — and incredibly cheap — army. My 16 Jihads cost 8,000 florins and had no upkeep costs until they were called into action. By comparison, 2,400 Almohad Urban Militia cost 8,000 florins, also, and have an annual upkeep cost of 1,500 florins.

[NewJeffCT]

You definitely have to get used to different tactics with the Turks & Egyptians... mere horse archers can be deadly early in the game, though. But you have to do a lot of skirmishing - hit & run tactics. It can mean a lot of in-battle pauses until you get used to skirmishing, though, as the Turks can also be a high maintenance army.

Saracen Infantry is invaluable in holding the line as you march through Europe proper.

But, I like Islamic factions a lot - you don't have to worry about ticking off the Pope by attacking your neighbors and you get deep sea ships earlier.

[Ragss]

I do great with the turks. On attack i usually take heavy casualties cause i didn't lead them out with my turc horses, but since my main force was ghulam bodyguards, ghazi, and muwahid(sp?), my guys fought down to the last man most of the time. On defense its super easy, just sit on a hill with a wall of saracen and plenty of futtuwas behind them. And if the enemy ever gets close charge down the hill with heavy cavalry, ghazi, futtuwa, or muwahid. In any battle i had 2 or 3 turcoman horses which were mainly used to send signle units on pointless chases or to slowly pick off the general's troops.

And now that its high period and i have jany heavies the Mongol horses are just meat for my grinder. There is nothing like defending a bridge with 60 jany heavies, 20 ghulam bodyguards, and 120 futtwuas against 2000 invading Mongols and taking less than 60 casualties.

[MuseRulez]

If you need advice on units just check out frogbeastegg's unit guide.

[The Wizard]

Oh -- I used to hate the muslim factions for their lack of heavy cavalry/infantry.

But that has changed now

Nothing like Ottoman all cavalry armies, skirmishing first, then moving in for the kill. Mongol style http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif



~Wiz

[Leet Eriksson]

usually pin,and flank tactics work,a unit of ghazi and a unit of muwahid can virtually waste any early-high era foot unit,use the muwahid morale to your advantage and pin the enemy(also the muwahids are the only spear unit with +1 attack in the game)then encircle the unit with your ghazi and flank it or attack it from the rear,they eat up flanked armor units pretty easily becuase of the +2 attack AP bonus.

Also a key strategy is to make your enemy army tired,this way your army can easily mow them down.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (kawligia @ Feb. 25 2004,14:48)]Which units do you tend to use?

How many of them do you use to strike a good balance?

What do you do with them?

Why do you do it that way?
With the Turks I use Ghulam Cav and Armenian Heavy Cav, also Turcoman Horse Archers until I can get Sipahi. For infantry I use Saracens, Janissary Infantry, and Futawwas (in SP use Turcomans until you can get to Futs and JI). Once I can make Janissary Heavy Infantry in SP I make em as fast as I can. In MP I use 2 or 3 JHI.

I like to use 8 or 10 hybrids like Futs or JI, this really allows me to pour on the missiles.

On defence I put my hybrids in rows, on skirmish at first. As the enemy approaches the front rows will fall back, while they do this the next rows are shooting, then they fall back. After a while I switch to Engage-At-Will and use like regular infantry. Futs and JI at morale 8 or more can fight quite well. Use my JHI as anticav (until JHI come along use Muwahids).

On offense I try to get the enemy to use up their arrows, then sit back and pepper them to death. The lighter, faster Turkish units can usually stay out of reach of the armored Catholics.

This allows me to shoot a lot of missiles and reduce enemy numbers and morale. Once their numbers are down I can fight melee. Use my cav and the JHI to protect against cav.

Turks require a lot of work IMHO, but are a very fun alternative to the same old chicken dinner that the Catholics can be.

ichi

[The_678]

What's so good about the Muwahid?

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Quote[/b] (The_678 @ Feb. 29 2004,04:56)]What's so good about the Muwahid?
They are fast, have good attack and good morale. Quite good as spears go, the main problem is they are only 60 men.

[katank]

they are also good at defence. they are capable of holding an enemy while losing virtually nobody.

their speed and charge makes them a good flanker. They are the only attacking spears in the game.

drawback is 60 men as mentioned. it's funny that they look identical to peasants on the field though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Cazbol]

I'm playing the Almohads and it's now year 1320-ish. My standard armies (non-desert), that I'm using against the Catholics looks like this:
- 4 ghulam bodyguards
- 1 faris
- 5 Almohad urban militia
- 3 muwahid spearmen
- 2 arbalesters or pavise arbalesers
- 1 arqubusiers

The arqubusiers do horrible things to low morale units, often routing them before any melee contact is made, which does additional morale damage to their comrades. The arbalesters provide immense firepower. Direct the arbalesters fire on the toughest units in range, like catholic knights. If you're given the time to let off a few volleys then you can often destroy whole units of knights. Your infantry is a bit underpowered for the late era but they can still do well if used properly. Try to make use of the terrain and fight from the high ground. If possible avoid using the ghulam bodyguards for frontal attacks. Let your infantry engage first and then send the ghulams around the enemies' back.

The main threat is a catholic army with many units of knights that charge you all at once without delay. For these situations you better hope there's a forest nearby and try to take the fight there.

[kawligia]

Wow. Some good info. Thanks guys and keep it coming. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (kawligia @ Mar. 01 2004,09:20)]Wow. Some good info. Thanks guys and keep it coming. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Been a while. Learned a few tricks since this thread was active.

Don't think of Muwahid Infantry as spears. Think of them as a pretty good melee unit that has a really nice anti-cavalry bonus.

Also, think of them as joined at the hip with Murabitin javelins if you're playing Almohads. Practice and learn to use javelin, then use Muwahid and Murabitins together.

You do that by spreading the Muwahid into a two-rank line and setting them to "engage at will," just like any other melee unit. Forget the spear rank bonus. You want their hefty charge bonus -- and to reduce the throwing distance for the Murabitin, who will often be right behind.

200 feudal sergeants will soundly beat 120 Muwahid. 200 feudal sergeants backed by 120 archers or x-bows will be massacred by 120 Muwahid and 120 Murabitin, once you know how to use javelins. Whats more, any survivors will be captured, since both Muw and Murs are fast units. Murs aren't completely hopeless at melee, so they can help out a lot when they run out of ammo.

Feudal men-at-arms will still beat the Muwahids, even with javelin support. For those you need Ghazi with javelin support. You'll soon see that more of your Ghazis survive when javelins take out some of the opposition. Ghazis become less of a "fire and forget," one-shot unit when friendly javelins are around.

As Almohads, though, Almohad Urban Militia are still the core of the army.

AUM and Desert Archers are a good combo. Anything without armor is in trouble against the AUM/DA combo. Most things with armor are in trouble against the AUM-Mur combo.

My ideal Almohad high-era army will have about three AUM backed by three Desert Archers; Two Muwahid or Ghazi's backed by two Murabitins, depending on the opposition; A couple of heavy cav or camels, depending on the location, and four faris with good weapon upgrades from the north Spanish iron provinces. However, I like cavarly archers much more than most people, and I don't play on-line. Feel free to substitute a couple of Ghazis for two of the Faris.

[andrewt]

I'm not sure if you want to play this way, but when I played Almohad and Egyptians I rushed and rushed and rushed. Both of these games were over (100% conquest) before 1200. I think Almohad finished at around 1170 and Egyptian around 1190. I played them both before the patch which weakened spears so it might be a little harder especially as Egyptians. They are definitely among the easiest in early and would be weak at high and late.

Almohads start out with rich farmlands, only 2 borders and 2 pushover factions on the Iberian peninsula. I just blitzed them and conquered it in fairly short order. Few initial borders means easier expansion and they have a better cash flow because they have rich farms. I had Granada producing +1 valor AUM, 2-3 more provinces with metal producing AUM, 1 w/ metal producing Muwahid, 1 w/ metal producing Ghulam and 1 producing Saharan Cav and Desert Archers.

I had AUM in the center, Muwahid in the flanks, Saharan and some Ghulam in the outer flanks. Desert Archers, some Ghulam and my general at the back. I just engage the AUM in the front and attempt to flank with the other units. Quite a few of my armies in the end actually degenerated to AUM/Ghulam where I would just charge the enemy.

Egyptians were more complicated. They had rich provinces and few borders as well. They also have lots of provinces with valor bonuses to their troops. I just built accordingly. I had lots of provinces building specific troops. If I had Mamluk Horse Archers, I would begin by skirmishing with them. I would also use Nizaris to shoot it out with my opponents. I had Saracen Infantry in the middle, Muwahid in their flanks, Ghazi in the outer flanks and Armenian and Mamluk Cavalry in the extreme flanks and back row. Nizaris are in the back row and would keep firing until there's a good opening to charge in. The rest would just charge with the Cavalry, Ghazis and Muwahid trying to flank. Mamluk also have AP so they take care of the higher armor opponents, especially cavalry. I use Saracen to hold Kataphraktoi in place and swarm Mamluk all around them.

[katank]

whoa, how did you get mamluks in early?

I would say don't underestimate javs. I've also started experimenting with them and found them quite powerful.

According to Doug's raves about the Murabitins, I think I might give the almos another go.

Muslims are definitely very suited for the desert with light skirmishing troops.

the DAs are especially good and combiend with Nubians form a nice base to work from.

the Almos are the only slugfest Muslim faction that I see.