Byz. Cavalry v. Archers

[Mysterium]

Finally got around to playing as the Byz, in High period. Re-took Constantinople, invaded Bulgaria with a small force, mostly foot, no ranged troops. They had archers. Their general was stupid, and got their archers away from the rest of the group. I figure this is a good time to move in with my Byz. Cavalry and take them out.

Now, both units were plain, no upgrades. Their general had 2 stars, I had none. I moved into range, but didn't want an archer duel, so I charged, in close formation, down a slight slope.

And my Byz. Cav. get 0WN3D I mean, in about ten seconds, there was one left. Is this a fluke? Or are Byz. Cav really that weak? Or what?

[Aelwyn]

Check what the valour of the archers were. Sometimes your Byz Cav won't do too well, due to their lower charge bonus than other non-missle cavs. Your Byz cavs probably didn't charge that far. What kind of archers were they, and what was their valour? v0 Byz Cav can be weak and aren't a sure thing depending on what they are facing.

[Mysterium]

Both were v0, so the only modifier was the one to the archers (plain archers) given by the 2 star general. And I just clicked attack from a ways out and let them decide when to start their charge.

Come to think of it, they might've been in an wedge. Does wedge really drop defense that dramatically?

[Kraxis]

Yes by 3 points.

Given that Byz Cav don't have a great charge the Wedge won't go far into the enemy unit, and thus the archers will be able to gang up on the individual Byz Cav riders. Though I would say that this is a fluke, Byz Cav should own archers, they are after all one of the heaviest horse archers in the game (only teh Boyars, Steppe Heavies and Sipahis of the Porte are heavier).

[kawligia]

Vanilla archers shouldn't own ANYTHING in melee. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 27 2004,18:29)]
Well, I've seen weird things like this happen before... The other day, lost a unit of Armenian Heavy Cavalry charging into a unit of archers from a hill...

Somehow, the running archer unit got dragged out over a large strech of land and my cavalry lost their formation as individual cavalary-men were attacking clots of archers in different places on the map. In the end, the cavalry routed to my amazement. And the AI general had one command star versus mine who had 2 stars...

Go figure...

I did check the log after the battle. The archers did have 0 pre-battle valor... No armor or weapon upgrades... Their valor went through the roof killing my cavalry though...

I suspect there must be some battle engine bug, that allows this to happen...

[katank]

wedge charging is fine. Did you run past them though?
charging past them is actually better as your men don't stop.

after about 3 seconds after the wedge hits, switch to a 1 line formation and close.

this should cause you to wrap around their flanks and kill them.

were they brigands? I have difficulty in imagining byz cav getting pawned by vanilla archers in melee.

this was one unit on one unit right? maybe multiple archer units might be able to flank and rear attack your byz cav.

[Aelwyn]

Yeah it very well could be a fluke, given that a v2 gen only gives 1 valour bonus to the units. Also, your unit of Byz Cav could have had their own morale problems, due to the unit leader. But I'd lean towards a fluke.

[Kraxis]

Katank you can't do the 'run past' maneuver anymore. If any rider gets caught in melee the entire unit will follow unless you try to force them away.

Kistaps, odd things happen at times, it is after all a game of chances. The archers had a very low chance of winning, but it can happen. It is like when I looked through a logfile of an STW battle and found an enemy Yari Ashigaru had killed no less than 9 Warrior Monks (I had only engaged the Ashis with Monks) and he was low honour. So very strange outcomes can certainly happen.

[Chaffers]

It sounds like a fluke, but a logical one which can happen on occasion. As mentioned the charge for the Byz cavalry is low and without any great speed on their side, though you would still expect them to do some serious damage in melee against vanilla archers.

Only trouble being that due to their elite status any archer who kills one of your horsies in melee will probably jump straight to 4 or 5 valour, which added to their +1 +1 due to a two star general would indeed make them superior in individual battles with the rest of your cavalry. If you check the log file you'll probably find 4 or 5 archers did all of the damage, which is simply the way it goes sometimes.

I had a unit of peasants which routed a unit of Royal Knights once, though to be fair they were simply the straw that broke the camels back. I wish I'd checked the logfile to see what valour the peasants with kills reached....

[Cazbol]

I don't suppose the Byzantine cavalry was partly in a forest? That would mess them up. I've easily beaten Armenian heavy cavalry with archers in woods.

[kawligia]

Yes strange thngs CAN happen. I had a valor 0 unit of peasants rout a King's unit of Kataphraktoi.