Historical background

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I've been aware that some of the most knowledgeble historians here at the ORG had a problem or two with some units. Specifically about Ghazi Infantry and Futuwwa.

What is CA's historical justification to create them like they have it in the game?

Did they exist? Or something similar?

Please enlightnen me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif

[The Wizard]

Ghazi, as far as I know, were the earliest of Ottoman "units". Apparently, they were cavalry in Osman Beghs armies. But that's all my (very indephth, at least as far as Ottoman military after Murad I is concerned) source says about ghazi.

Edit:: Ghazi were tribal warriors; they were light horse, essentially Turcoman horse, who would be summoned when the bey of the Sögüt went to war, and went home after battles. They later became known as "akinji", who served as the base of the Ottoman Akinji corps under the Sultans.



~Wiz

[Cebei]

I hate to look like a weirdo trying to refute people in the forum, but I just have to make a modification to your post Wizard. You can smack me later.

Ghazi is not a unit. It is a term. Word Ghazi originates from word Gaz'a (war against the Christian). Any soldier involved in a religious war (Gaz'a) was considered a "gazi". I am not sure exactly what is the difference between Gaz'a and Jihad, but they are close terms. The Ghazi infantry, used in the game, are crude/old versions of the Ottoman infantry, known as "baltaci" (axe man), and are exclusively used in religious wars, unlike "upgraded" baltacis, who were used against Anatolian Muslim/Turkic princes. So in short, a Ghazi can be anyone, infantry, horseman, catapult crew, f-16, tank etc... Also you may notice that Ottoman princes were entitled as Gazi too, which signifies that they are religious warriors; unlike other Turkic principalities in Anatolia after the fall of Seljuk Empire. This was House Ottoman's great edge against other princes and caused massive volunteer influx throughout the Anatolia into Ottoman raider armies.

Likewise futuwwa is not a unit either. Futuwwa is a complex, pre-Islamic concept that became imbued with spiritual significance in the Sufi tradition. Based on the word for 'youth' (fatâ) it has connotations of generosity, nobility, wisdom and fidelity. I dont know much about the warriors of futuwwa and how CA decided to put them on game, but the army model for futuwwas were the model later used for janissaries in the Ottoman Empire. Like warriors were based on the chivalry conduct of Sufism, janissaries were based on the chivalry conduct of Bektashi teaching.

We still need a futuwwa-explainer.

[The Wizard]

Of course. Notice the "-marks on unit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The article I refer to is a long article about 16th-century Ottoman military structure, but it does briefly mention the older Ottoman military. Here, it mentions the Ottoman "unit" (again, with lack of synonyms, I use this word) ghazi, a tribal kind of warrior that was mostly ghuzz/turkmenbashi light horse, in the traditional Seljuq way of warfare.

I don't know much of it, so to tell the truth, I was waiting for your reply. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



~Wiz

[Cebei]

Thanks Wiz, though I still feel bad when I say something contrary to what someone else believes, because nobody is right about anything. The article is right of course; they WERE ghazis, they just were not the only ghazis; Turkic history is indeed full of confusions, so much that even most of the Turkish citizens have misconceptions about it.

[Leet Eriksson]

Actually Ghaza(Gaz'a)is not war against the christians,its a general term for invading,raiding or liberating,depending on the situation.Ghazi could be a name or title,an entire raiding/invading army and such..

It originally stems from Ghazwa(religious war)wich can only be related to the prophet mohammed,he conducted several Ghazwas against the un-beleivers who were usually the idol-worshipping Quraysh and their allies,Ghazwas such as Badr(see Moustapha al Akkads movie the Message,starring anthony quinn)Uhud and Al Ahzab to name a few.

but not veering a lot off-topic,but it seems the Ghazi infantry in the game pretty much are the ones cebei described them.

though just a theory,nothing true and all but from what i can tell the arabs did conquer a land called Tabarstan(Tabar meaning Axe,stan=land)....probably the ghazis came from there,becuase no wonder why the arabs would call it Tabarstan in the firstplace http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Cebei]

So Ghazwa and Ghaza has different meanings? The Turkic word Gaza (Ghazwa or Ghaza Im confused there) is actually exclusively a religious war and describes the first wave of Ottoman clan's expansion. Even today it is used in Turkey (as a joke of course) in situations from going abroad to getting laid with a foreigner as "Gazan mubarek olsun" = May your Gaza be blessed.

So Ghazwa is translated as Gaza into Turkish, but then again I guess it can also be Ottomans' opportunist act and attributing Muhammed's Ghazwas to their cause. In early Ottoman context, Ottoman ghazis were used in religious wars. Later, Ghazi was the default title of the princes and then when military tradition was established in Turkey, gazi meant a person wounded in battle. And then as you said everybody became gazis.

Probably, Ottomans themselves had a very wide conception of ghazi.

As for the Tabarstan theory, that may be true, but Ottomans (during their infancy) used Turcomans as axemen. But then they understood that turcomans had no ability/discipline to fight in tight infantry formations. Perhaps then they imported head bashers from Tabarstan. By the way where is Tabarstan? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

[The Wizard]

Sounds like you Turks don't have everything ordered neat 'n' tidy to me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif



~Wiz

[Leet Eriksson]

sorry about the confusion Cebei,but i did'nt know the turkish word had a different meaning,as i explained the arabic version.

As for Tabarstan,the arabs were pretty famous in not talking in detail on where the land is located,but alot of sources point out its in central/western asia,i'm have to look it up to get anything solid tho.

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Sounds like you Turks don't have everything ordered neat 'n' tidy to me...

Neat and tidy are two words that shouldnt be used in the same sentence with "Turk". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif Ever tried to find your way in a Turkish city?


Quote[/b] ]sorry about the confusion Cebei,but i did'nt know the turkish word had a different meaning

Sorry for what? Neither did I. It appears Ottomans accepted that word as they liked. I just learned what it really means. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well, well, well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif

It seems that the explanation is hard even for the specialists http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Nevertheless, you've explained it very well. I'm enlightned http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Cebei]

Thats because CA "invented" ghazi and futuwwa as units. Only they can explain why they did that. In the credits of the game, they give credit for (Im not sure) Islamic bla bla studies of bla bla for units. You can run the credits to see which institution that is. Both ghazi and futuwwa are concepts. Like "chivalry archers" or "generosity horsemen", ghazi infantry and futuwwas do not make sense in this context.

[cutepuppy]

concerning futuwwa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuwa

still working on a mod, Aymar???

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]concerning futuwwa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuwa


Other form were Warriors for the Faith; warbands or warrior societies. Some of these were just glorified bands of brigands. However, for example, in 1100’s in Damascus, Ibn Jubayr founded an organization called the Nubuya that fought the fanatic Shi'a sects in Syria.

Abbasid Caliph an-Nasir (1158-1225) approved of and supported futuwas. In 1182 he organized a warrior futuwa that was for all practical purposes a knightly order with mounted warriors. He became the head of the order and gathered ruling princes and other notables to its membership. It continued for some time after the death of its founder.




--> So they are actually mounted warriors.. I am really pissed at CA now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Like "chivalry archers" or "generosity horsemen", ghazi infantry and futuwwas do not make sense in this context.
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif




Quote[/b] ]still working on a mod, Aymar???
Funny that you ask http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif I didn't expect much attention http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Yes I'm still working on it. It is much more extensive than I've previously planned. I will reveal most details in the Mod Descriptions thread soon. But, due to it's extensivness and lack of time, it will only be ready in the end of March at the best.

BTW, thanks for the link. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif




Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]Other form were Warriors for the Faith; warbands or warrior societies. Some of these were just glorified bands of brigands. However, for example, in 1100’s in Damascus, Ibn Jubayr founded an organization called the Nubuya that fought the fanatic Shi'a sects in Syria.

Abbasid Caliph an-Nasir (1158-1225) approved of and supported futuwas. In 1182 he organized a warrior futuwa that was for all practical purposes a knightly order with mounted warriors. He became the head of the order and gathered ruling princes and other notables to its membership. It continued for some time after the death of its founder.



--> So they are actually mounted warriors.. I am really pissed at CA now.
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif


And for everyone: Thank you all for your answers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[The Wizard]

No problem, eager to help (even with my limited knowledge on the subject; you should make a mod on Mongols/Ottomans some time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)



~Wiz

[Cebei]

Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[The Wizard]

Ain Jalut...

[cough] unimportant forward army of Holegu (soon-to-be) Il-Khan, versus massive Mamluk army raised to face Holegu himself. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif



~Wiz

[Cebei]

The name of the battle itself is cool I guess; "Spring of Goliath". Two Turkic armies bashing each other, what can be more interesting? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt Weeeee wanttt Ayn Jalutt
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif You REALLY want it, don't you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

Unfortunatelly, due to lack of time, it will still take some time before I'm available to make Ain Jalutt. I'm going to release a pack of the the first four "reworked" HB next weekend (Stamford, Hastings, Stirling and Bannockburn). They will be playable by both sides meaning that they will be effectivelly 8 Historical Battles. After that one, I will annouce and then release Aljubarrota 1385. After that one (still sorting info), the other ones people have spoken in the thread. I have yet to decide the next after Aljubarrota. Sorry for the delay but, personal and professional life as well as my MOD, all get their share of my time... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad.gif

[Shahed]

Wow nice posts there Cebei and Faiz. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif