Breaking the pavwar using Horse Archers

[Duke John]

I posted this some months ago on TotalWars.net, but I don't think it would hurt to see if the Org is interested in these kind of discussions.
I've a background on playing miniature table-top games and battle reports always had diagrams about how the army moved and why does movements were made. With this post I hope that more of us post strategy articles with diagrams so that new and old players can discuss it. What is more wonderfull than to discuss your favorite tactic and making it perfect with help from others? It is a community afterall

Of course the real games are not always so organised since human players can do unpredictable things. But lots of players also stick to the same army over and over again. Long pav wars are a very common way to start a battle. Many people complaing about this boring way of playing and I think it's up to them to show others how you can play the game at a different level.

Using Horse Archers to break the Pav war
Both armies are set up for the traditonal pav war. The enemy has his flanks protected by Heavy cavalry and if you had completed mirrored your deployment that it's a 50-50 chance who would win. However you can yourself the upperhand. The key is draw away or kill the cavalry on one flank to make sure that your missile troops can go forward without being threatened by enemy cavarly.

Step 1: Shoot the cavalry
You spread your missile troops in the centre and have a focus on the left. Your Horse Archers are sent forward to start harassing the enemy heavy cavalry, who will quickly start losing numbers when standing still.
http://chronicles.metw.net/images/mp/tactic_harassment_01.jpg

Step 2: Lure the cavalry and kill them
The enemy cavalry cannot afford to remain still since the arrows will deplete their numbers. At a certain point the cavalry will attack the horse archers, which you now retreat to your own lines. If he doesn't press on, you repeat untill he falls for the bait. If he does press on, you'll have your third missile unit to shoot the enemy cavalry, if he still presses on you will attack with your fresh heavy cavalry.
http://chronicles.metw.net/images/mp/tactic_harassment_02.jpg

Step 3: Shoot the infantry
By now you should have killed the enemy cavalry. The right flank of the enemy is now unprotected and you can now move forward missile units to start shooting the enemy infantry. Your right flank should hold back since that side still has a cavalry unit to deal with, which you will counter with the cavalry unit that swings to the right.
http://chronicles.metw.net/images/mp/tactic_harassment_03.jpg

Step 4: Fight your own battle
The enemy has won the pav war and your missile troops are probably depleted, however they do not win the battle. The enemy infantry are now in lesser numbers and that is the time to move your own infantry still large in numbers. Your horse archers can be used to shoot some more or make a decisive rearcharge.

Possible variants
There are of course different ways of how the battle can develop. Here are some possibilities:
- The opponent realigns one of his Pavs to shoot at your HA. Although it does take some time to move them and reload in the end the HA will lose the shootout.
- The opponent moves his cavalry further behind his lines, if you follow your HA are dangerously close to the enemy. However you have now succesfully disrupted his line. He's reacting to your actions and vice versa.

Also I would like to know what you think about this kind of article? Worth the trouble or not? Reading battlereports from miniature-wargames was always a pleasure and most gamers looked forward to reading another one, so I'm hoping this will catch on and we will have more discussions about tactics using diagrams.

Cheers,
Duke John

[tootee]

well imo the horse archers will be pretty useless facing one skillful with longbow.

if u use horse archers of decent melee like mamluk, faris, bzy cav, szekely, or more powerful like boyars.. it will be a waste to engage them vs cheaper missile.

back to the pic.. i see u have 3 red missiles engaging 2 blue missiles.. why should red do so?

why should red let blue utilise his adv in more missiles? red can choose to sweep both his hvy cav to the right follow closely by his foot, starts a decisive H2H w/o having blue missiles gaining much adv.. red will now have a better winning chance by merit of having more better melee units overall.

what if red decides to put his hvy cav in loose and let blue shoot.. when the HA finishes its ammo.. i think red hvy cav probably still be 40 to 50% in strength.. maybe.

the red army in your description is too reactive in manner.

i think this article is great.. its been some time since i see such nice article in .org. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

tactics are never the same.. the more what-if's we ask, the better we are equipped to react fast in any given situation.. thus such discussion are great value-add to all players. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Mithrandir]

Nice article, not realistic however imho.

If you pick a HA and the enemy has HC, the enemy has more power.

If I have 3 pavs and face 3 pavs&1 HA, I'll use 2 pavs for my shoot out and the 3rd to counter the HA if needed, I may not win the shoot out, but the enemies pavs still wont be much good when the pavwar is over, since they'll be exhausted anyway.

No skilled player will chase HA with cav, even if one does, you wont simply destroy it since the enemy will also send cav and a cav battle will erupt, or he'll send inf after the cav.

[Dionysus9]

I also like the article but disagree with your conclusions.

First, why would the HC just stand and get shot? It should fall back behind the red missile units. If blue has a lot of HA, then red will have to fall back a bit and curl up in a "ball" of missile units facing out.

Second, you will never get an experienced player to charge HC at HA-- it is futile. The HC can never catch the faster HA and will just get shot to bits by blue's missiles.

A good player would simply shoot your HA with missles or hide his HC behind missiles so you couldnt shoot it.

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Mar. 01 2004,11:30)]If blue has a lot of HA, then red will have to fall back a bit and curl up in a "ball" of missile units facing out.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif , If blue has a lot of HA, he has a weak melee army and red will just rush and win http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[shingenmitch2]

BTW, why is orange's second HC just standing still?

Plus this scenario assumes one would have no archers or medium chase-cavalry.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Where is Red right wing ally shooting blue horse archer to start with?

I do not think HA are really good at breaking pav war. If I face a Horse Archer heavy faction, I might take an additional fast shooting missile (think longbow, hybrids...), and that usually solve the problem in a very strict defensive way.

The other alternative being, as Mithrandir said to just charge before getting in missile inferiority.

Louis,

[Duke John]

Yeah great, bunch of members who joined in 2001 are replying on my "tactics" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

Thanks for the replies, I know that there are some great holes in this tactic, and I also know veteran players will never fall for it. The problem with these kind of articles, they are always what-if's. But totee said it:
Quote[/b] ]the more what-if's we ask, the better we are equipped to react fast in any given situation

This article was mainly aimed at new players, the replies from veteran are highly appreciated as they provide an experienced insight. There are players out there who need to learn this game. Perhaps I could have better written it from the side of blue. Red is sending out his HA to harass and then the article explains what good moves and what bad more moves are to counter it.


Quote[/b] ]BTW, why is orange's second HC just standing still?
Because there are players out there who remain stationary if they are defending. What if the second HC did move? Then the left flank of red would be without cavalry support, still a good outcome for blue.


Quote[/b] ]Plus this scenario assumes one would have no archers or medium chase-cavalry.
No, I had to pick a pretty standard and limited army just to make the article clear. If I had 6 different units then there would be too many options and scenarios to get the point clear. This article isn't meant to give an solution to everything (which it obviously doesn't) but to give new players the clue that there are more ways to fight a battle besides putting up a pav line, shoot and charge.
The art of harassing, taking the initiative and drawing out the opponent gives the game far more depth. I know that, you know that, but I also want new players to know that.

Cheers, Duke John

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Duke John @ Mar. 01 2004,14:00)]Yeah great, bunch of members who joined in 2001 are replying on my "tactics" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
Some of them are still noob though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif , part of the elven noobility that is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Louis,

PS: hum... looks who is talking http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif my join date is 2003...

[Duke John]

Seems like I opened a can of worms...


Quote[/b] ]Where is Red right wing ally shooting blue horse archer to start with?
For the simplicity of this article I kept allies out of the example. And I also wanted to focus on unit tactics. I would put your remark in army tactics as it's about how armies coorporate. A very interesting side of tactics and worthy of discussing in the future.



Quote[/b] ]If I face a Horse Archer heavy faction, I might take an additional fast shooting missile (think longbow, hybrids...), and that usually solve the problem in a very strict defensive way.
Germany and Italy are not exactly Horse Archer heavy factions but can still field Mounted Crossbows who are also reasonably effective in shooting at armoured cavalry.


Quote[/b] ]The other alternative being, as Mithrandir said to just charge before getting in missile inferiority.

I think you will agree that charging into a line of pavs is usually not the best of the moves that you can do. In this case, HA made you do it, you reacted instead of being proactive.

Cheers, Duke John

[Dionysus9]

by "a lot" of HA I meant 2 or 3 units...which means the money saved is probably invested in high valor foot which might be able to withstand a rush of Reds lower valor foot (albeit probably an extra unit or two).

Its a good article, John, and I like the way you have explained everything. This is good for new players to look at and see how the vets would play it.

good job.



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Duke John]

I shall try to make things more clear (and I hope with your help). Let's start with the following:

Setup
http://chronicles.metw.net/images/mp/tactic_harassment_army_00.jpg
Normally defenders stay put, it's expected from the attackers to make the first move. There are cases where this isn't true, but let's just assume it.
So the attackers move up, all armies have a general setup of infantry, pavs and heavy cavalry, except for blue on the left flank who has one unit mounted crossbows instead of another unit of HC.

The opening
http://chronicles.metw.net/images/mp/tactic_harassment_army_02.jpg
Since most of the armies are equal, the middle and right pavwar is drawn, well not exactly drawn since it always go (slightly) in favour of one side.
But blue is harassing red's HC with the MC (cleverly written as HA...). MC are capable of killing armoured knights so the HC will have casualities.

The reaction
Red has got the react, if he doesn't his HC will get shot and few players accept that. His allies are nice and tight and have no reason to move anywhere.
Blue is drawing out red and has HC and Pavs at his disposal to break the pavwar. His allies are waiting for blue to get the upper hand as their side show no weaknesses.

Let's repeat the options:

1. The chase
http://chronicles.metw.net/images/mp/tactic_harassment_option_01.jpg
Red chases the HA with HC. Something a new player might do. Not wisely as the HC will get shot even more by the pavs and then counter-charged by the HC.

2. Charge
Red calls for an all out attack, since he can't stand his HC being shot at. He thinks the choice of buying the HA makes Blue's army weak enough to easily beat it. However his allies do not gain an advantage by following and charging into a pav line.
If red goes alone, he will expose an flank, that the attackers center can exploit with some cav.
If all the defenders attack, then the attackers have broken the pav war, and in my opinion, in their favour.

3. Missile counter
http://chronicles.metw.net/images/mp/tactic_harassment_option_03.jpg
Red realigns one of his pavs to counter the MC. It will take time for the pavs to move and reload. If the MC move back, then the pavs have to move back and reload, this unit is wasting time.

4. Fall back
http://chronicles.metw.net/images/mp/tactic_harassment_option_04.jpg
Red moves his HC further back behind his lines.

Your reactions?
Now what should blue do counter red's reactions? Or is this tactic flawed from the beginning?
Or is this usage of HA only the starting move of a sequence, perhaps putting Red into an even worse situation?

If there some interesting replies that improve the tactic, than I am more than willing to draw some more diagrams. So please some constructive critism with the intention to improve this tactic, not just ripping it apart, which makes me think: "Is blue everybodies friend? I mean why is everybody defending him?" Come on, blue is your enemy, defeat him


Quote[/b] ]Its a good article, John, and I like the way you have explained everything. This is good for new players to look at and see how the vets would play it.

Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cheers, Duke John

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya really enjoy this read This promotes tactics discussions They do not have to be brilliant to stimulate discussion

Vanya sez...

Vanya HA bait in open alone is usually recipe for them getting their heads made into swiss cheese. Vanya sez... when sending HA out to harass, 'tis best if it is escorted with some other unit. This escort hangs back, but can provide cover in case of a cav counter, or extra punch if the bait works.

And, when it comes to successful anti-HA tactics, its all about playing the angles. Only a fool would outright rush a HA with a solitary cav unit of their own. When youz come out obliquely at an angle with multiple cav, its easier to nail the HA in your grip.

But, in a MP game, as the last scenario here, youz forget one very playful event... that of the blue playa sending his HA to harrass the OPPOSITE end, and keep his army as a left-flank anchor.

GAH

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]Vanya sez... when sending HA out to harass, 'tis best if it is escorted with some other unit.
Good point Blue's third pav is doing little besides waiting for the HC to take the bait, which they probably never will.
The unitslot might be better spent at Light Cav to act as support for the HA. This does mean that blue's pavs are outnumbered, but your harassment will also me more lethal as you are outnumbering the enemy's cav.

I can think of possible setups to have back this tactic up:
Germans\Italians
Mounted Crossbows: armour-piercing crossbows form an effective thread on HC.
Knights: to back up the MC.

Russians
Boyars: weak shooting that are merely a nuisance, but can irritate a player. Decent combat prowess.
Alan Mercenary/Steppe Cavalry: good charge and fast, excellent for rearcharging a baited cavalry.
Feudal Knights: if given enough valour they are good enough to take on Chivalric Knights while the LC move for a rearcharge.

However keep in mind, that this thread is not about armylists, but is how about using them. Knowing a list of units doesn't make you a better player, knowing how to use that list is.

[1dread1lahll]

love the diagrames,... but ur conclusions are not well grounded..... although i detest paves, they have a vastly superior range over cav archers, and horses make fat targets, if u bring your cav archers into range of my 'heavy cav' ill most like just pave them to death. If you have matched me pav for pav, then ill outnumber u in meele as your cav archers (with some exceptions) will fight very poorly hand to hand.....I prefer early era to be rid of paves,...before you or others point out Byz cav or Boyars,....they shoot arrows>>>--->they lose fatigue >>>---> they lose in meele to those 'heavy cav' they arnt fatigued.....

[Puzz3D]

Duke John,

The diagrams are very nice, and give a nice basis for discussion. Everyone is seeing the same picture to start. One thing that's missing, and I don't know how you would indicate it, is the relative strength of the units. What I mean is that, if I buy extra ranged units, then I have saved money which I can spend on slightly better inf or cav. In the very first example with the 8 units, blue can save 675 - 250 = 425. That could buy a lot of armor on the 3 pav xbows or very nearly allow the heavy cav an upgrade from v0 to v1 or buy one of those cav archers with nearly as good melee as the chiv knight. I'm assuming typical 10k type unit levels. So, yes the enemy has extra melee units, but he has to maneuver them into a flanking position, and he's going to have to attack. How much of a melee unit deficit you can handle depends on how well you mange your units.

In the first example red could attack, and blue is going to have a hard time protecting his right flank from that red cav. Blue will have to deny the flank long enough for him to win on the left and then bring his archer cav into the back of red and his heavy cav either to his right flank as indicated or also into the back of red inf. Hitting the red xbows with the cav is probably less effective than going right for the inf. Red will take some losses while advancing into the xbow fire and incur significant fatigue if he runs. This is one reason that players want to wait for the xbows to shoot it out and get tired. If I had to attack early on as red, I'd probably send my cav at the xbows to make them move and stop shooting. Then pull the cav back and try to go around the blue flank while my inf walked forward.

I did a little test in custom battle of a cav archer shooting a stationary chiv knight (armor 7.5) and the cav arch did achieve 21 kills with the knight in close form and 19 kills with the knight in loose form. There were hits or multiple hits on just about every volley, but not many kills comparitively. Just the same, 20 kills, which is 1/2 of a 675 florin unit, is probably too much to just stand there and take. This is borne out by my experience where players usually either try to chase off the cav archer or move back. Cav archers do better on large maps where there is ample room to move way out on a flank.

I've turned the enemy flank many times by using more ranged units in team games, but the situation becomes very dangerous as you get your army out on the flank because the enemy gets compressed and has shorter lines of communication. The enemy has a chance to attack the flank army and overwhelm it before its ally can react. Also, if you don't play in arid climate, rain can throw a monkey wrench into the whole idea of winning the ranged battle because pav xbows are quite hard to kill off with ranged fire alone. I just finished a 4v4 game where I won the shootout in the center, and sure enough it drew an attack which was defeated. These were not weak players who attacked.

Despite the theoretical disadvantage of fewer melee units, I find a lot of battles being won by the side that draws the attack by virtue of having more ranged units, and that seems to be counter to what I see posted. Good ranged capability also means you can delay attacking as long as you want, take advantage of the terrain and have a chance of shooting an opponent off of higher ground as long as it's a mild gradient. However, you can't go crazy buying ranged units because you have to be able to handle the attack when it comes.

[ichi]

I have to agree with what's been said by all the guys who joined in 2001, mainly cause they have kicked the cr@p out of me at one time or another.

But a good discusion nonetheless.

There are some ideas that haven't been discussed yet.

One is that HAs to the flanks, especially in a 1v1 create a situation where the opposing player must constantly keep checking the sides. This can be a little demoralizing and fatiguing, and I've seen some of the best 1v1 guys (Wintermute comes to mind) put the HAs out on the flanks and wait for the battle to start, then he has units that can easily get to the rear of the enemy at a critical time.

Another idea is to use the HAs against the pavs if the opposition gives you a opening. HAs are fast and with a little morale and armor are capable of disrupting pavs lines. Not recommended, but still an option. Never charge fresh pavs unless they are just so vulnerable you can't stand it.

I like to use HAs in a 4v4 after the pavs are gone. I like to get the guy across form me in a pav duel early when I have HAs, so that when we run out of pav ammo our teams are still shooting. Now bring up the HAs and shoot the inf or cav.

Finally, I wonder if you can use HAs against enemy heavy cav trying to disrupt your pav lines. What I'm thinking of is counter a charging heavy cav with your HC, and also a HA to add a little more missile fire as the enemy HC returns to their lines after charging.

ichi

[shingenmitch2]

okee...

Back 2 ur 1st scenario...

How is it that blue is able to have a missle free and fight pav war with 2 missle so that it has extra missle to shoot charging O-HC, while O doesn't break-off missle to shoot B-CA? or in ur later pics u make it seem like a huge maneuver to shift xbows, when that is the first thing anybody does.

If I were O, I'd break off that 3rd one and have it sit off my flank keeping the CA away. I'd let B's 3 shoot my 2... O will lose, but B's xbows won't be in great shape either.
If Blue stays at 2 on 2 missle, then we're even.
Regardless, O-missle3 will still be in good shape after shooting with B-CA or simply standing and relatively fresh.

-------

About the HC...
That other O-HC2 could be charging ur missles while the O-HC1 occupies B's CA & HC .... or it could be doubling up on that flank and now u got 2 HC charging... and that is just skirmish, when O rushes, B still has to stop that 2nd HC.

That said, a CA can be quite a pain in the arse, but my army isn't built like O's so I've got a counter or 2 if one shows up.

Yuuk makes good point about $

[Puzz3D]

Mitch,

Blue doesn't have to keep the left pav xbow out of the shootout. If it's on fire-at-will and hasn't been given a specific target, it will automatically switch to shooting the cav when that cav comes into range. However, why should Blue even engage frontally with the xbows? He wants to delay the main engagement as long as possible while he works on the flank. If Red moves an xbow out to the side to keep the cav archer at bay, Blue can move his left xbow up and fire enfilade into the Red xbow. The pavise won't give protection in that case, and you can get a lot of kills giving Blue a potentially won pav shootout. If Red keeps his xbow facing front, Blue might be able to get enfilade fire on it with the cav archer, although, I wouldn't use all the arrows doing that. You only need a small headstart in the shootout between two xbows to eventually win because a small advantage in the beginning compounds itself as the shootout progresses since dead men take their ammo with them. A problem even when winning the shootout is that the xbows get tired, and you may have to rest before you try to move in and shoot the inf. I think this idea of working a flank with a cav archer works better in team games where Blue's right flank would be protected from Red cav by his ally.

Ichi has a good point about camera perspective. A player who has units out on a flank can look across the formation from the side. If you are facing a player who has units out on both of your flanks and you are completely centralized, you cannot have all of his units in your field of view simultaneously. You have to keep moving the camera back and forth, and this can result in you not seeing an incoming cav attack on one side, especially if the flanking player has made a diversionary move on the other flank to make you look that way. Another thing that I've become aware of recently is that it's possible to time a frontal charge by fast cav on an xbow such that the xbow never gets to volley at the incoming cav. Players good at this can get repeated charges in on an xbow and not loose a single cavalryman.

[Orda Khan]

Unfortunately, as lahll says, pavs will out range HA and will strip the lightly armoured unit in no time. Unfortunately we must wait until Rome before we get proper HA.

....Orda

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ Mar. 02 2004,20:08)]Unfortunately we must wait until Rome before we get proper HA.
The Parthian Shot is not gonna save the poor HA from the wrath of foot archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


CBR

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Yuuk,

Most peeps in Orange's spot in that first situation, screen their flank by breaking off an Xbow vs. the CA.

Now if the CA is truly off the flank, then that O-xbow is angled back behind the main line of 2 Orange xbows, (which are now stretched across the formation front). To get enfilade fire, blue's 3rd xbow gotta come forward and starts exposing itself to HC charge... particularly if O has both HC to that same side.

I agree Orange will lose that ranged duel -- he IS down by a range unit -- but I'd bet it could be dragged out long enough that when Orange charges, there isn't much that the Blue's winning xbows add to the fight.

[Cheetah]

Wohoooo, very nice thread Duke John http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

First, about an unstated assumption: is it temperate/arid, 15k, steppe? Obviously climate, florin level and terrain has a great effect on the usefulness of cav.archers. No one would take them to hilly maps with lots of forest, on the other hand, they really shine on large steppe maps in dry climate.

Also, cav.archers have a different role/effectiveness in 1v1 and in 3v3 or 4v4 games, partly because the limited size of the maps, partly because of the difficulties of coordinating the armies of 4 players.

In the light of the above it is really interesting to see that many veteran players disagreeing with your conclusion. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I disagree with all those who disagree with you, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif in short, your idea works. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif (even if not exactly as you described)

Again, it depends on the climate, florin level, map type, 1v1 or 4v4, etc.

Last but not least just as observation: even in 4v4 games there is almost at least 1 player per teams who picks a faction with good cav.archers (mostly Hungary, because of the availabilty of standard christian troop types). Now, why would they do so if cav.archers would be useless?

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Mar. 02 2004,16:26)]No one would take them to hilly maps with lots of forest, on the other hand, they really shine on large steppe maps in dry climate.
Actually, I would take them on hilly maps with trees. They are good at hiding in trees, firing quietly into infantry and then quickly running away...

dont forget archers can fire out of trees fairly well compared to having to fire in to trees...

Also, the hills make it so the enemy is unlikely to chase my HA, and also, if I can get a good height advantage on foot archers I might even be able to out-range them.

So I think that at least SOMEONE would take them. That is, unless you consider poor old Bachus to be a nobody :P

*plays by self [not with self] in corner*
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[shingenmitch2]

I'm not disputing CA are viable... or that they can be very effective. I used to run 2 CA standard in MI.

I'm questioning the conclusion he draws in his scenario and the moves he has orange making. What I was trying to point out is that orange is not limited to what he has shown and that there are many options to counter.

[LadyAnn]

The way I use horse archers (boyars, szelky) would be quite conservative. I keep them behind my infantry, ready to provide missile support for melee.

When the pav are gone, the longbows almost out of arrows, the field is littered with deadbodies, that the HA, boyars, szelky come out and play. Of course, occasional flank harassment isn't bad at all. But in general, I'll go for the end game.

Shooting cav archer is my favorite (pointed out by Mitch, etc. already).

Killing cav archers is also possible. Need two fast cav. One is to send behind the CA (never click on CA to attack) and run back to our line, waypoint setting. The other corner to CA. Again, I won't use that tactic once I saw the opponent know what to do. The opponent would not set cav arch on skirmish and immediately send out cav + infantry support and point pav toward my cav. And he also run CA back. If he uses CA as a means to draw my cav into a melee he will win, then I won't try to again and just move myself away.

But a couple of HA in the end game will make the enemy very uncomfortable. So, cav that can shoot are valuable, but never on the way initially described.

Annie

[Puzz3D]

You can also break the pav war by not taking any ranged units. I've done this by substituting fanatics for pav xbows, and the fanatics got just as many kills as the pav xbows would have. So in the first example, replace Red's 3 pav xbows with fanatics and just advance on Blue immediately.